Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

[OneLostGrl]

No I haven't OneLostGrl. I can only imagine. I just have those PPD feelings to go by - and like I said - I fear what could be worse than that. I've done my share of recreational drugs in the past - and those feelings and thoughts I had with PPD seemed way stronger than than any drug induced state of mind. Maybe I had a stronger case than I thought? Anyway...I can see what you are saying about not wanting to go out and act normal and party during a time of psychosis - totally not gonna happen - but do you think a case of PPD could have tipped the scales so to speak on some sort of imbalance for Casey?

Is she a mental case at all? Or just evil? I think both.

PS
Your posts are so insightful - thanks for your openness.

Please don't feel like I'm trying to minimize ppd. Depression is a horrible, life altering disease and you are a survivor!

I have to be honest, when the case first started I kept thinking maybe she's got a type of amnesia, perhaps she's in a fugue state... it is difficult for people to imagine a mother being totally empty inside and not loving their child so we search for another reason, anything else that could explain it. Nothing else does. This woman is sane- I'd bet my life on it!

I know I'm not a doctor or anything close to it but I have been crazy- locked up against my will crazy and this woman is not like any crazy person I have ever seen- No way! She is of sound mind. She's a sick, manipulative, coniving, personality disorded coward.

 

[Katiecat]

Please don't feel like I'm trying to minimize ppd. Depression is a horrible, life altering disease and you are a survivor!

I have to be honest, when the case first started I kept thinking maybe she's got a type of amnesia, perhaps she's in a fugue state... it is difficult for people to imagine a mother being totally empty inside and not loving their child so we search for another reason, anything else that could explain it. Nothing else does. This woman is sane- I'd bet my life on it!

I know I'm not a doctor or anything close to it but I have been crazy- locked up against my will crazy and this woman is not like any crazy person I have ever seen- No way! She is of sound mind. She's a sick, manipulative, coniving, personality disorded coward.

No I haven't OneLostGrl. I can only imagine. I just have those PPD feelings to go by - and like I said - I fear what could be worse than that. I've done my share of recreational drugs in the past - and those feelings and thoughts I had with PPD seemed way stronger than than any drug induced state of mind. Maybe I had a stronger case than I thought? Anyway...I can see what you are saying about not wanting to go out and act normal and party during a time of psychosis - totally not gonna happen - but do you think a case of PPD could have tipped the scales so to speak on some sort of imbalance for Casey?

Is she a mental case at all? Or just evil? I think both.

PS
Your posts are so insightful - thanks for your openness.

Thank you both for sharing what you did.:grouphug:

 

[concentric]

I put forth this question on some other threads here and sorry if it has already been addressed. I can really see the defense trying to get her ruled insane by undiagnosed post-partum psychosis; to favorably compound the issue, they could cite the miscarriage she told her friend about at the party.

 

[Jolynna]

Is the need for more stimulation a symptom of some forms of APD? It seems like Casey's lies were escalating and her stealing getting riskier?

Could whatever happened to Caylee be a manifestation of Casey taking a disorder to the next level?

It would not be a defense. Like a serial killer that cuts down on the number of days between crimes, just because your impulses become more obsessive that doesn't mean you aren't rational.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I put forth this question on some other threads here and sorry if it has already been addressed. I can really see the defense trying to get her ruled insane by undiagnosed post-partum psychosis; to favorably compound the issue, they could cite the miscarriage she told her friend about at the party.

Bringing over my response to you from the confinment thread in case you didn't see it there.


Again, have you ever seen, conversed with or listened to a conversation with a psychotic person? Psychosis does not look like this or act like this... yeah people can argue not all people with mental illness present the same & there are various degrees but I don't care who you are- psychotic is psychotic!

Psychotic people don't act this way. I just don't get how people can even entertain the thought that Casey is insane.

She has no problems with her speech patterns, she seems perfectly able to put sentences together, her thought process seems organized. She sure doesn't seem to be withdrawn, isolated or unsociable. Her cognition appears in tact, as does her personal hygiene. She seems to have plenty of energy and drive, doesn't look like she lost interest in things she enjoys. She is plenty motivated and has follow through when it's things she wants to do.

In her interviews with police she doesn't speak of the goverment trying to kill her or plant things in her brain to listen to her thoughts, she doesn't claim to be Jesus or anything else even close to being a delusion, hallucination or being paranoid or being out of touch with reality.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you both for sharing what you did.:grouphug:

:blowkiss:

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Just some random observations:

1) KC seems to be amazingly skilled at compartmentalizing. This is obviously a hugely important coping mechanism for her. I think compartmentalizing allows her to live in denial of any situation she finds too stressful to deal with - and I'm guessing she is far more anxious a person than most people, although her cool exterior demeanor would lead us to think otherwise. Despite her obvious intelligence, I think her high degree of anxiety is what caused the need for her to develop such markedly abnormal coping mechanisms in the first place. She couldn't cope with high school. She couldn't cope with being a mother, as evidenced by A's need to pick up her slack, and she couldn't cope with the basic task of supporting herself...I think her cool exterior is actually just another part of her coping mechanism.

2) Because of her low coping skills, and avoidance of dealing with problems she finds overwhelming, she tends to live very "in the moment", because the moment is really all she can handle. This is why when she is supposedly on her business trip, she keeps having to call CA every other day with a new lie or a new version of the old lie. She's really only concerned about a lie that will cover her whereabouts for that moment. Same thing when she is telling lies to LE that she knows they will easily debunk. She isn't stupid, she's just coping with the right now, and letting later take care of itself. As for speculation that she may have killed her baby one day, had her in the trunk a few days, and then buried her...that would seem to fit for me. It's as if she's saying "I'll do what I can handle now, and finish the rest later."

3) KC doesn't just lie to avoid getting caught...she lies when there is no reason to lie, as in telling AH her parents are divorcing, etc. This obviously isn't normal behavior. Many people w/o APD will lie not to get caught at something, but most will not lie often and for no rational reason. Most of her other lies seem to be about either wanting people to like her, need her, or feel sorry for her, but it's all directed at eliciting some sort of emotional response that she must fear she wouldn't otherwise get. This and the stealing are both symptomatic of APD (and other disorders).

4) KC would be in the group of what are called "organized" batterers/killers. Not to say she is organized in the vernacular sense of the word, but clinically so. This isn't someone who blew up in a rage, or just freaked out. Searching for chloroform IMHO says organized. I think there's a reason we don't know the date of the chloroform recipe search yet....Most sane killers kill in response to a trigger - divorce, job loss, etc. I think we will find that the search is closely tied to a trigger - either the fight on 15th or being told not to bring her kid to Fusion, or some other event that for KC had major significance...

 

[Brini]

Just for reference:


Antisocial Personality Disorder (sociopathy)

Diagnostic criteria

Three or more of the following are required:[1]

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

The antisocial behavior must not occur exclusively during an episode of schizophrenia or a manic episode.[4]

Sex differences: According to DSM-IV (in a 1994 publication by the APA), Antisocial Personality disorder is diagnosed in approximately three percent of all males and one percent of all females.[1]

[edit] Symptoms

Characteristics of people with antisocial personality disorder may include:[citation needed]

* Persistent lying or stealing
* Recurring difficulties with the law
* Tendency to violate the rights and boundaries of others
* Substance abuse
* Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
* A persistent agitated or depressed feeling (dysphoria)
* Inability to tolerate boredom
* Disregard for the safety of self or others
* A childhood diagnosis of conduct disorders - this is not a symptom but "a history of"
* Lack of remorse, related to hurting others
* Superficial charm
* Impulsiveness
* A sense of extreme entitlement
* Inability to make or keep friends
* Recklessness, impulsivity[5][6]

* People with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder often experience difficulties with authority figures.[7]




PTSD s/p Sexual Abuse (for those who argue incest)

* Intrusive memories of the traumatic event
* Bad dreams about the traumatic event
* Flashbacks or a sense of reliving the event
* Feelings of intense distress when reminded of the trauma
* Physiological stress response to reminders of the event (pounding heart, rapid breathing, nausea, muscle tension, sweating)



The intrusions or flashbacks that result from these PTSD triggers are terrifying, disorienting, and unpleasant. The natural response is to protect yourself by avoiding them. This leads to the second major cluster of PTSD symptoms.
Symptoms of avoidance

Symptoms of avoidance are prominent in PTSD. You may persistently avoid situations that remind you of the traumatic event you experienced, minimize the event’s significance, or push all thoughts of it out of your mind. Avoidance can also take the form of detachment and apathy.

Symptoms of avoidance include:

* Avoiding thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma
* Avoiding activities, places, or people that remind you of the trauma
* Inability to remember important aspects of the trauma
* Loss of interest in activities and life in general
* Feeling detached or estranged from other people
* Feeling emotionally numb, especially toward loved ones
* Sense of a limited future (you don’t expect to live a normal life span, get married, have a career)

Symptoms of increased arousal

PTSD can cause you to feel and react as if you’re constantly in danger. In this state of chronic hyperarousal, your mind and body is on constant red alert, making it impossible to fully relax, be productive, or enjoy life.

The PTSD symptoms of increased arousal and anxiety include:

* Difficulty falling or staying asleep
* Irritability or outbursts of anger
* Difficulty concentrating
* Hypervigilance, or being constantly “on guard”
* An exaggerated startle response, or jumpiness

Other common symptoms of PTSD

In addition to the PTSD symptoms of intrusion, avoidance, and hyperarousal, you may also experience a number of other distressing symptoms. If you survived an event that killed others, you may feel guilt that you lived while others died. You may also blame yourself for what happened or suffer from feelings of shame and hopelessness. You may also experience an array of physical symptoms linked to PTSD, including headaches, stomach problems, and chest pain.

Over the long-term, PTSD can also lead to many complicating problems, including depression, panic attacks, and other psychological issues. Substance abuse is another common complication, especially if you’re turning to alcohol and drugs in an attempt to handle the symptoms of PTSD.
Symptoms of PTSD in children and adolescents

In children—especially those who are very young—the symptoms of PTSD can be different than the symptoms in adults. Symptoms in children include:

* Fear of being separated from parent
* Losing previously-acquired skills (such as toilet training)
* Sleep problems and nightmares without recognizable content
* Somber, compulsive play in which themes or aspects of the trauma are repeated
* New phobias and anxieties that seem unrelated to the trauma (such as a fear of monsters).
* Acting out the trauma through play, stories, or drawings.
* Aches and pains with no apparent cause
* Irritability and aggression

 

[Broderick]

I think that it could also simply be an indicator that she is a sociopath. They use people and fake sentiments. They don't form meaningful relationships either.

Very true, but I don't think she is the classic sociopath. She exhibited conscience at times and her patterns of theft started close to home with family, expanded to close friends, and then as she got bolder, her new friends like Annie. For some reason, many thieves start by stealing from those closest to them in small amounts. This behavior of stealing from the family generally results in exemption from legal recourse. It grows from there in some cases.

I think the fact that she would wake up in cold sweats means that something was obviously eating at her in a bad way and that tells me that she did have a conscience, albeit she was able to push it away in the fantasy land in her mind she developed over time that even included fake people as related in her stories to her mother prior to Caylee's disappearance.


Just bringing it here from the (who is Caylee's biological father thread) because it is more relevant to psyche.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2878305&posted=1#post2878305

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Just my opinion-there has been much said about KC and her numerous relationships with guys. On the "who is the bio dad thread" there is talk of incest being at the root of KC's behavior.

I think it is very possible her promiscuous behavior could have began as a way to get approval. She may not have gotten the acceptance and approval she required to develop a healthy self-image. I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER BAHAVIOR. JMO

 

[Broderick]

Just my opinion-there has been much said about KC and her numerous relationships with guys. On the "who is the bio dad thread" there is talk of incest being at the root of KC's behavior.

I think it is very possible her promiscuous behavior could have began as a way to get approval. She may not have gotten the acceptance and approval she required to develop a healthy self-image. I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER BAHAVIOR. JMO

I think it is very very possible. I think it would not only explain "her" behavior as she matured into a young adult coming out of high school, but would explain the family's post third 911 call behavior and explain why. It may explain why George left after Caylee came home about the time Jesse's fullblown paternity test came back negative. I don't think she is the classic sociopath as many in the industry would try to pigeonhole any client for expediency, but I think she exhibits more learned sociopathic behavior through enabling, shame, guilt, and resentment. Incestuous ramifications are intense especially if you are saddled outwardly with the result of the abuse whether the brother paid the cell phone or daycare bills to help out or not.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I put forth this question on some other threads here and sorry if it has already been addressed. I can really see the defense trying to get her ruled insane by undiagnosed post-partum psychosis; to favorably compound the issue, they could cite the miscarriage she told her friend about at the party.

Before they could do the insanity defense, Casey would have to admit to killing Caylee. She would have to plead guilty first.

She won't do that! Besides they would have to prove she knew or didn't know right from wrong. Same as I feel this couldn't be viewed as an accident with all the covering up she's done, all the partying, all the drugs, sex and lord knows what else.

Not going to happen...

 

[Janis396]

Just my opinion-there has been much said about KC and her numerous relationships with guys. On the "who is the bio dad thread" there is talk of incest being at the root of KC's behavior.

I think it is very possible her promiscuous behavior could have began as a way to get approval. She may not have gotten the acceptance and approval she required to develop a healthy self-image. I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER BAHAVIOR. JMO

And it doesn't appear she had a strong male role-model in her life. George obviously has no authority in that house, and it's possible Casey was subconsciously looking for a male to give her that. That is one reason a lot of girls become promiscuous.

 

[BetsyB]

Very true, but I don't think she is the classic sociopath. She exhibited conscience at times...<snipped>
I think the fact that she would wake up in cold sweats means that something was obviously eating at her in a bad way and that tells me that she did have a conscience

Or that she was simply scared that she would be caught, which is what I would wager.

I've seen no convincing evidence of conscience. But even if I did, I'd question its authenticity. (I'm the daughter of a sociopath. It can be very confusing---and it can elude detection and diagnoses for DECADES, if not entire lifetimes---because many sociopaths have a facility for pretense that is simply astounding.)

 

[Brini]

I put forth this question on some other threads here and sorry if it has already been addressed. I can really see the defense trying to get her ruled insane by undiagnosed post-partum psychosis; to favorably compound the issue, they could cite the miscarriage she told her friend about at the party.

No evidence of psychotic behavior. That evidentiary dog won't hunt. Psychotics act and look nothing like KC.

We've also, BTW, not even got any evidence of a miscarriage.

 

[Brini]

Is the need for more stimulation a symptom of some forms of APD? It seems like Casey's lies were escalating and her stealing getting riskier?

Could whatever happened to Caylee be a manifestation of Casey taking a disorder to the next level?

It would not be a defense. Like a serial killer that cuts down on the number of days between crimes, just because your impulses become more obsessive that doesn't mean you aren't rational.

It may be that her characrterological disorder was getting out of hand, since she had the freedom (no child) to indulge it. But, she's still miles short of legally insane.

 

[Brini]

Bringing over my response to you from the confinment thread in case you didn't see it there.


Again, have you ever seen, conversed with or listened to a conversation with a psychotic person? Psychosis does not look like this or act like this... yeah people can argue not all people with mental illness present the same & there are various degrees but I don't care who you are- psychotic is psychotic!

Psychotic people don't act this way. I just don't get how people can even entertain the thought that Casey is insane.

She has no problems with her speech patterns, she seems perfectly able to put sentences together, her thought process seems organized. She sure doesn't seem to be withdrawn, isolated or unsociable. Her cognition appears in tact, as does her personal hygiene. She seems to have plenty of energy and drive, doesn't look like she lost interest in things she enjoys. She is plenty motivated and has follow through when it's things she wants to do.

In her interviews with police she doesn't speak of the goverment trying to kill her or plant things in her brain to listen to her thoughts, she doesn't claim to be Jesus or anything else even close to being a delusion, hallucination or being paranoid or being out of touch with reality.

I don't get it either, OLG. But, maybe a lot of people haven't ever been exposed to frank psychosis.

The FIRST things psychotics seem to lose is the ability to take care of personal hygiene. Then, there is the weight loss or gain... And, that's BEFORE you get to the psych sx, as you know.

 

[Brini]

Just some random observations:

1) KC seems to be amazingly skilled at compartmentalizing. This is obviously a hugely important coping mechanism for her. I think compartmentalizing allows her to live in denial of any situation she finds too stressful to deal with - and I'm guessing she is far more anxious a person than most people, although her cool exterior demeanor would lead us to think otherwise. Despite her obvious intelligence, I think her high degree of anxiety is what caused the need for her to develop such markedly abnormal coping mechanisms in the first place. She couldn't cope with high school. She couldn't cope with being a mother, as evidenced by A's need to pick up her slack, and she couldn't cope with the basic task of supporting herself...I think her cool exterior is actually just another part of her coping mechanism.

2) Because of her low coping skills, and avoidance of dealing with problems she finds overwhelming, she tends to live very "in the moment", because the moment is really all she can handle. This is why when she is supposedly on her business trip, she keeps having to call CA every other day with a new lie or a new version of the old lie. She's really only concerned about a lie that will cover her whereabouts for that moment. Same thing when she is telling lies to LE that she knows they will easily debunk. She isn't stupid, she's just coping with the right now, and letting later take care of itself. As for speculation that she may have killed her baby one day, had her in the trunk a few days, and then buried her...that would seem to fit for me. It's as if she's saying "I'll do what I can handle now, and finish the rest later."

3) KC doesn't just lie to avoid getting caught...she lies when there is no reason to lie, as in telling AH her parents are divorcing, etc. This obviously isn't normal behavior. Many people w/o APD will lie not to get caught at something, but most will not lie often and for no rational reason. Most of her other lies seem to be about either wanting people to like her, need her, or feel sorry for her, but it's all directed at eliciting some sort of emotional response that she must fear she wouldn't otherwise get. This and the stealing are both symptomatic of APD (and other disorders).

4) KC would be in the group of what are called "organized" batterers/killers. Not to say she is organized in the vernacular sense of the word, but clinically so. This isn't someone who blew up in a rage, or just freaked out. Searching for chloroform IMHO says organized. I think there's a reason we don't know the date of the chloroform recipe search yet....Most sane killers kill in response to a trigger - divorce, job loss, etc. I think we will find that the search is closely tied to a trigger - either the fight on 15th or being told not to bring her kid to Fusion, or some other event that for KC had major significance...

Yep! She does all that splitting (compartmentalizing) to support the lies.

It's certainly all about the APD.

 

[Broderick]

Just some random observations:

1) KC seems to be amazingly skilled at compartmentalizing. This is obviously a hugely important coping mechanism for her. I think compartmentalizing allows her to live in denial of any situation she finds too stressful to deal with - and I'm guessing she is far more anxious a person than most people, although her cool exterior demeanor would lead us to think otherwise. Despite her obvious intelligence, I think her high degree of anxiety is what caused the need for her to develop such markedly abnormal coping mechanisms in the first place. She couldn't cope with high school. She couldn't cope with being a mother, as evidenced by A's need to pick up her slack, and she couldn't cope with the basic task of supporting herself...I think her cool exterior is actually just another part of her coping mechanism.

2) Because of her low coping skills, and avoidance of dealing with problems she finds overwhelming, she tends to live very "in the moment", because the moment is really all she can handle. This is why when she is supposedly on her business trip, she keeps having to call CA every other day with a new lie or a new version of the old lie. She's really only concerned about a lie that will cover her whereabouts for that moment. Same thing when she is telling lies to LE that she knows they will easily debunk. She isn't stupid, she's just coping with the right now, and letting later take care of itself. As for speculation that she may have killed her baby one day, had her in the trunk a few days, and then buried her...that would seem to fit for me. It's as if she's saying "I'll do what I can handle now, and finish the rest later."

3) KC doesn't just lie to avoid getting caught...she lies when there is no reason to lie, as in telling AH her parents are divorcing, etc. This obviously isn't normal behavior. Many people w/o APD will lie not to get caught at something, but most will not lie often and for no rational reason. Most of her other lies seem to be about either wanting people to like her, need her, or feel sorry for her, but it's all directed at eliciting some sort of emotional response that she must fear she wouldn't otherwise get. This and the stealing are both symptomatic of APD (and other disorders).

4) KC would be in the group of what are called "organized" batterers/killers. Not to say she is organized in the vernacular sense of the word, but clinically so. This isn't someone who blew up in a rage, or just freaked out. Searching for chloroform IMHO says organized. I think there's a reason we don't know the date of the chloroform recipe search yet....Most sane killers kill in response to a trigger - divorce, job loss, etc. I think we will find that the search is closely tied to a trigger - either the fight on 15th or being told not to bring her kid to Fusion, or some other event that for KC had major significance...

That is a very excellent observation! Thanks for sharing it!


Just adding some information since I went to look up APD for more information:

The exact cause of APD is not known, but biological or genetic factors may play a role.

If a family member has had the disorder (especially the parents) it increases the chance of the disorder. A number of environmental factors in the childhood home, school, and community may also contribute to the disorder. Robins (1966) found an increased incidence of sociopathic characteristics and alcoholism in the fathers of individuals with antisocial personality disorder. He found that, within such a family, males had an increased incidence of APD, whereas females tended to show an increased incidence of somatization disorder instead.[16]

Bowlby (1944) saw a connection between antisocial personality disorder and maternal deprivation in the first five years of life. Glueck and Glueck (1968) saw reasons to believe that the mothers of children who developed this personality disorder usually did not discipline their children and showed little affection towards them.

Adoption studies show that both genetic and environmental factors can contribute to the development of the disorder. These studies have also have shown that genetic factors are more important for adults with the disorder, while environmental factors are more important in antisocial children. [17][16]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

 

[Brini]

Very true, but I don't think she is the classic sociopath. She exhibited conscience at times and her patterns of theft started close to home with family, expanded to close friends, and then as she got bolder, her new friends like Annie. For some reason, many thieves start by stealing from those closest to them in small amounts. This behavior of stealing from the family generally results in exemption from legal recourse. It grows from there in some cases.

I think the fact that she would wake up in cold sweats means that something was obviously eating at her in a bad way and that tells me that she did have a conscience, albeit she was able to push it away in the fantasy land in her mind she developed over time that even included fake people as related in her stories to her mother prior to Caylee's disappearance.


Just bringing it here from the (who is Caylee's biological father thread) because it is more relevant to psyche.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2878305&posted=1#post2878305

Conscience? How so? Did she try to give her granddad or AH back their money, or even apologize? Or, did she go on spending sprees, and scream back at CA when caught. And, the money she took amounts to grand theft, not petty. It caused an ongoing rift in the extended family, and cause CA to have to raid her 401K, a few times. She has also contributed to the ruination of the As credit, by running up the stolen cards.

Did she go into a grief-stricken depression after she killed her child? Or, did she go out partying and boyfriend hunting. Did she even ask ONCE about her baby, when she called home, or did she ask for Tony's phone number. When AH expressed concern about Caylee, she said, "OMG! Calling you was a waste, A huge waste."

She's a sociopath, honey. If she is OK with having killed her baby, she is capable of doing anything. The thefts are nothing compared to that. No one has seen the slightest degree of grief or regret, from her. That's why people are so uncomprehending.

Sociopaths lie because that is part of the syndrome. It's not because it serves a functional purpose, because it usually ends up working against them.

She woke in cold sweats because she knew she was close to being arrested and indicted. She knows, and knew, she has a good shot at a very long prison term. For once, Mom and Dad cannot make it go away. She's stuck with her own accountability problem.

MOO