Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[jnTexas]

Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

 

[Tammie63]

Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

I can understand your version a lot more then hers, so much easier to except!

 

[debs]

Exept when I read up on the Susan Smith case I could have swore I remember the step dad admitted it??

The step-father admitted it, in court.

 

[indicat]

The step-father admitted it, in court.

Thanks debs! That's what I thought, he even went as far to say he felt responsible for what happened.

 

[Brini]

Exept when I read up on the Susan Smith case I could have swore I remember the step dad admitted it??

From what I read, it was sort of mutual. But, he WAS the elder, so thus responsible.

Still, all lot of women and girls are molested, and do not kill.

 

[Brini]

Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

Poor boundaries.

 

[Dr. Pennypacker]

Maybe Cindy's statement She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. was Cindy code. Switch loved and hurt around and it makes more since.... (my version)She said, as for my daughter, she never loved Caylee and that will be proven. She hurt her deeply. Makes me feel better anyway. JMO

OUCH!!

 

[thelmadawg]

The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.

 

[kiki the parrot]

I think what's interesting is her choice of words, "she never HURT Caylee". Makes me think she knows or was told it was an accident & will be proven?? That was my initial feeling.
Also wondering, if now that KC is in the driver's seat, ( not Cindy) with JB bowing to her for his newfound glory, that she is feeling her own power, for the first time in her life, & realizes she does not need or want Cindy speaking for her

(bold mine) Words your's! ITA! (great minds lol sorry, I'd missed this!!) Sad if it isn't until she's imprisoned that she can find any self of her own. Boundary issues Brini, for sure! JMO

 

[bessie]

Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

• It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
• Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
• I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
• I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.

 

[maryaok]

From what I read, it was sort of mutual. But, he WAS the elder, so thus responsible.

Still, all lot of women and girls are molested, and do not kill.

He did say that, but then there were rumors after that he just said that to save her from the death penalty and in reality, he had never molested her.

Anyway, both women murdered their children, I think they're both rotten to the core, but in Caysee's case, I almost feel like she didn't stand much of a chance (of course neither did Caylee). I could give SS the death penalty, but not Caysee although I could certainly see a jury voting for it. Certainly.

 

[kiki the parrot]

The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.

I too see some similarities. However--and I may yet be proven totally wrong about this--I also suspect or sense significant differences so would only offer the following counterpoints:

1. I think SP had failed to form significant attachments to anyone.

2. As you say, he was more highly functioning in other areas of his life.

3. While exploitative and manipulative, I attribute KC's lack of empathy to narcissism more than to sociopathy or psychopathy.

4. No disagreement here!!! Although many of KC's lies seem to compensate for failures, insecurities and inadequacies whereas for some reason his strike me as somehow more enjoying the power itself.

5. Yes. But his mask was never removed, it never came off. Whereas KC seemed to have a more classical narcissistic spit-you-out-when-I'm-thru-w-you ie she had no problem "flipping" or "switching" in the blink of an eye...

6. It is strictly intuition but I've still not entirely ruled out that the reason KC disposed of her daughter in this manner was to possibly deflect responsiblity for negligence--so deliberately create the impression of a heinous random crime perpetrated by a stranger. Whereas I'm convinced SP threw his wife and unborn child into the bay like refuse because that's all they were to him--waste, to be disposed of.

7. While I've posted ad nauseum re CA's alternately controlling and coddling, narcissistic, parent-centered parenting, she has a generally warmer quality-- and a genuine capacity to attach and to love (albeit in sore need of a better working definition of love!!) There is something about both SP and his mother which strike me as evil. A combination, I suppose of deception but coupled with no real regard for the heartache they heap upon others.

8. Both MAJOR enablers and ENDLESS excusers but per earlier discussion, guess I'll have to reserve judgment on this too!

9. KC's chameleonlike quality, from years of "fitting in" w no real voice or self of her own, is adept at or adapts well to her surroundings. SP was just smooth, apparently devoid of any real emotion--unflappable and unruffled regardless. We know KC on the other hand is quite capable of openly expressing anger, hostility or other negative emotions.

10. Remains to be seen, but if there is any other explanation for her daughter's death, what a travesty if her defense hasn't made every effort to coax an admission of negligence.

11. Really sad but true, people who've never been taught limits or ever learned any internal boundaries seem to need the external structure and rigid boundaries, as provided in prison, in their absence.

ETA: There is no doubt in my mind that SP did, w malice and premeditation, coldly plan and carry out the murders of his wife and child. It seems to me SP (and even JP) lack the most basic human emotions; and that we see in SP the absence of even the most fundamental regard or respect for human life. I guess I'm just not yet convinced of this in the case of KC. But w sufficient evidence, I may form a different opinion. JMHUO (unprofessional!!)

:behindbar

 

[Kat]

Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

• It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
• Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
• I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
• I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.

Bolding and underlining by me.

Bessie could you please give us more on the demeter-persephone relationship. What it is, and more importantly how you see this between CA and KC. TIA!

 

[Pattymarie]

Has there been anything on this board regarding substance use/abuse by any or all of the A's? I simply can't believe all that has occurred in this family without alcohol/drug abuse. I have heard snippets about cigarette smoking, meth/alcohol use by Casey, alcohol/presription use by Cindy. Don't know about George or Lee. How many extremely dysfunctional families exist without substance abuse by family members?

 

[maryaok]

Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

 

[kiki the parrot]

Excuse me for interjecting here, but I can't help myself. The posts on this thread are thoughtfully quite dense so I haven't read everything.

I'd like to point out that the nature-nurture issue is nowhere near resolved. We largely have theories, and little proof.

I believe the perp to be a psychopath. She exhibits psychopathic traits, attitude and anti-social behaviours. If this is true about her, from all the literature I've studied there is a likelihood that psychopathy is hard-wired.

Robert Hare, a leading expert on psychopathy, has conducted EEG studies on adult ASPDs comparing their brain waves to that of non-conduct- disordered adolescents and found a similarity in brain patterns. This indicates to Hare that it is possible that an ASPD brain simply never fully matured.

There have also been twin studies that show that there can be a genetic predisposition to psychopathy.

The point I'm making is that the nature-nurture debate is by no means over.

But your point about the effects of narcissism is well-taken, though I am not sure that it's an inevitability that narcissists produce narcissists. I've puzzled over CA since the beginning. At first I thought she was suffering from Stockholm syndrome, a kind of weird take on loving your captor (the perp), or exhibiting behaviours of a cult member. Over time it became clear to me that CA was exhibiting narcissistic traits. Two behaviours come to mind: the way she blames everyone, and the way she brings the focus on herself, her feelings, how it's all affecting her.

There's this great British TV drama called "Wire in the Blood". In one episode the murderer of a child turned out to the mother who had Munchausen's. The psychologist figured out she was the killer because when she was pleading for her child's safe return, she kept talking about how it affected her, how she was suffering, etc.

I think that the perp is a hard-wired psychopath (nature). And I'm also thinking that CA's narcissism affected the perp's development in influencing and enabling and encouraging her narcissistic tendencies until they were massively full blown (nurture) to the point of murder. Mere pampering is not enough to create a murderer, IMO. I'm thinking that perhaps the motive for murder was the injury to the perp's narcissistic self. Without her mother's enabling, perhaps the perp would have been a different kind of psychopath. With it, it was a recipe for murder somewhere down the line, especially if it involved their enmeshment.

As an aside, their relationship is so enmeshed and so glaringly sick, I can't find words for it. It's like they're a single dynamic entity and no one else exists for them. I keep thinking folies a deux even though it can't be.

(bold mine) The wide consensus among psychologists, researchers, and authors alike, ie Vaknin's Malignant Self-Love, Nina Brown's The Destructive Narcissistic Pattern, Children of the Self-Absorbed etc is that narcissistic parents do produce narcissistic children. In Why Is It Always About You: The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism, Sandy Hotchkiss argues that, depending on circumstances, "narcissistic parents produce either narcissistic children, or children who become ripe for exploitation by narcissists later on in life (ie they're effectively “pre-programmed” for it). "Both have deficient Selves, but deficient in reverse ways. The former has no real sense of shame, since they lack a sufficiently robust sense of self to 'carry' the emotion. The latter have, if anything, too much shame as they lack a sufficiently robust sense of self to put boundaries on the emotion. In the former, the capacity for shame has been short-circuited, in the latter over-developed." She is more optimistic re the latter being far more treatable than the former.

I agree CA seems to behave, in recent years anyway, as tho KC's had some kind of hold over her. I attribute this to the shift in power once Caylee was born--when KC went from being CA's NSS (narcissistic supply source) to standing between her and in the way of Caylee, her new "drug of choice." It was not solely selfish tho, since I believe CA also genuinely cared. (If only we could replay their argument, I'm sure this would be extremely telling!)

I need to remind myself though there is general agreement too, as pointed out in Bernstein’s Emotional Vampires--a broader discussion, covering the gamut of personality disorders--that there are elements of narcissism in all the major personality disorders. And it may become much clearer, during the trial phase when more facts emerge (and if more is learned re malice or intent) whether narcissism alone can fully explain the extent of what we're seeing here. JMHUO

 

[Gypsy Road]

Question: Can someone tell me where they was a prior discussion of Casey's life before all this. Has anyone come forward who has known her for a long long time (a neighbor or friend) and said for sure what her homelife was like. I mean it's obvious the parents raised a troubled kid, but was she ever normal, like high school, grammar school?

Take this with a grain of salt, but in the beginning someone was here who had a sister in law who taught KC in high school. She said KC was a bit of an outcast from what I recall. It's also been mentioned that there was a lot of strife between CA and KC, has been for a long time. KC told friends that CA was crazy, and CA told AH and other's that KC was a sociapath or a psychopath (one of those - I can't remember which one). Sounds like there's been some problems there for a long time.

 

[bookworm474]

What about plain old SIN?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Without a doubt, this is one of the best posts to date on the subject of the family's psychological make up.

Just a few brief comments on sections I've bolded:

• It's been less than ten years since completion of the Human Genome Project. Much more to come on this front.
• Initially, I noted that CA exhibited signs of Munchausen and speculated that she might be responsible for the death. I dumped that theory as more facts emerged.
• I agree narcissism breeds narcissism, in some cases.
• I see an unresolved Demeter-Persephone relationship and a tug-of-war between one's need for control and the other's need to separate. One inidication is CA's reluctance to acknowledge her daughter's pregnancy.

I think we have a clear understanding of Cindy and what motivates her. She is empty unless she is caring, loving, taking care of, controling and fixing (SMOTHERING). Most of us have agreed that it seems Cindy was unwilling to let her daughter be herself, it's clear Casey had no real "self" apart from what Cindy allowed her. She took over Casey's child, her life...

I think introducing the Demeter-Persephone myth may kinda muddy the waters a bit as very few people here at WS will know what you are refering to. It has been a long process for many here to be able to understand the behaviors when it is termed "personality disorder"- I worry people will become frantic and feel they need to start searching the internet to understand this theory, this "new term" when they don't need to. It describes pretty much the same things, the same behaviors that they all already have a pretty good understanding of.

This is just me but when it comes to things mental health related I think it's wise to explain things as simply as possible so as not to confuse people.. the behaviors that go with psych issues are confusing enough for people who are not familar, I hate to confuse everyone even farther, ya know?

 

[OneLostGrl]

At the risk of re-posting this if I already have, some may find this interesting- it IMO helps explain the family dynamics/behaviors a bit..

Part 1
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=199&wlid=5&cn=8

Part 2
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=201&wlid=5&cn=8

Part 3
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=202&wlid=5&cn=8


Interesting tid-bit on nature/nurture on same web site- http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=96&wlid=6&cn=8