Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[radio]

I respectfully disagree. Your saying "judging from Caylee's room and the mad-dog style of protection" depicts Cindy as a good person, just baffles my mind. It told me an entirely different story. Caylee was the ultimate scapegoat for Cindy's underlying unhappiness of everything going on in the Anthony house. This so-called mad-dog protection never left any room for her daughter to be a responsible mother to her child.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but to me, the picture is just too vividly clear that Cindy way overstepped her boundaries as a grandmother, while emotionally crippling her daughter.

[Bold mine]

Whut?? When you have time and if you see this again - could you explain what you mean and how you arrived at this conclusion from a picture. Thanks.
reeseeva - this is not a snarky question and I know you are not unwilling to answer a question from 'me'.

 

[maryaok]

I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

 

[sharpar]

That baby paid a heavy price for that room -

and that nice room will be trotted out by defense to try and convince

a juror that the prisioner isnt a murderous monster .

 

[reeseeva]

That baby paid a heavy price for that room -

and that nice room will be trotted out by defense to try and convince

a juror that the prisioner isnt a murderous monster .

Thank You Sharpar...........I wish I was one who could say what I want in a sentence or two.

Which is why I will not indulge a question posed at me of which the answer is OBVIOUS!

 

[maryaok]

Well they're not going to get away with that defense because we know Casey's not responsible for that room, and she certainly wasn't tucking her in and reading her a good night story every night before bed.

 

[Brini]

Wasn't it said she was taking an AP biology course? Hmm...quiet, shy, AP courses and studious...but doesn't even graduate? :waitasec: It's as though she did a complete 180 as she approached adulthood.

It was AP something!

I think she went wild as soon as she got the chance.

I did that, too. The difference being, I'm not a sociopath.

 

[Brini]

-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

I think they're a "closed system famliy." I don't think they have many friends.

Ryan is the only one we've heard of, who has known her all her life. He did not endorse her character. Kiomara has known her for years, but not since childhood.

I suspect she burns through friends pretty fast, then moves on.

 

[Brini]

-------------
Guess that without more info from her teachers it is not possible to determine what happened to Casey from her experience of the public school culture. Did anyone bother to get to know her. Analyze all you want about her family, but with all the years in a school setting something formed Casey's world view and her psychological development besides her family. I am always surprised to not find more discussion about the effects from the rituals and conditioning demanded in that environment.

BTW-- Sociopaths are thought to often have been born that way.

 

[Brini]

I believe KC is a sociopath, George is enmeshed, CA is a borderline personality and Lee goes along to get along (or he may be more screwed up than I realize). Does anyone have a link to the very first taped statement by CA, the one where she goes on and on about being the only one who can find Caylee and how tired she is? If so would you post the link.
Lastly if it was my daughter and I really believed her innocent I would visit her even if we didn't speak a word.

This post says it ALL!

 

[Whisperer]

(I bolded to respond)
How are you getting that Casey mothered Cindy? :waitasec: Not being snarky, just really curious as to how you came to that idea because I just don't see it.

Since the only time I've ever witnessed substancial interaction between Cindy and Casey was while watching the jail videos, I will use the jail visit as an example.

Listening to Cindy talk to Casey, I don't hear or see a narcissistic woman making it all about herself and how much SHE is suffering. (Isn't that what a person with NPD would do, especially in such an emotional situation?) I certainly saw that in her daughter, though.
Despite her attempts to remain strong and in control, as would be natural with her dominant personality, I do see fear in Cindy. Nervous energy, glaring at her daughter suspiciously, there is an obvious sense of desperation. She is choosing her words carefully- at times it almost seems she is playing devil's advocate. (makes sense, since she is talking to a snake in the grass, figuratively anyway) Cindy tells Casey about the efforts to find Caylee. Asks her question after question, always keeping to the subject at hand and her eyes on Casey. Asks Casey to look her in the eyes (at which time Casey breaks into tears...how telling) At no time do I recall Cindy making any of it about herself. To the contrary, Casey is told not to worry about her (Cindy), not to worry about protecting the family, not to worry about anyone but Caylee. Just do what ever it takes that will lead them to Caylee. Meanwhile, Casey is all woe is me, refers to herself over and over and over again..wah wah wah.

I am not seeing NPD with Cindy.

I can understand your questions because I struggled with the term somtimes also. Keep in mind, Cindy is not pathological. Her daughter is. There is a difference in narcissism between ordinary and pathological.

Casey controlled Cindy in many ways. Take a look at the first call/video from jail. you will observe Cindy turning to mush and backing down. I suggest the dynamics in that home were a roller coaster ride with these two women switching it up. I will also go as far to say that kc controlled the whole house. She could play many roles. Kc controlled Cindy and she was starting to lose some of her control when Caylee was born.

As far as Cindy questioning kc, I didn't see much questioning going on of any significance. She led her with questions and guided her to get the answers she wanted to hear. She cajoled her with, 'It's ok sweetheart".
There was not ONE hard question asked, but lots of support.

Do you think because Cindy was telling her not to worry about any harm coming to the parents was necessary? All that did was tell everyone how big and strong 'WE" Anthonys are....self-serving, IMO. Where are the tough questions? Through any of the videos between Cindy and Casey, nothing is accomplished. It goes nowhere, it turns out to some mutual lovefeast for the two of them.

IMO, Cindy puts on her "motherly" persona when she is on the air. It helps her image, she thinks.

Yes, control-freaks are born out of nervousness and anxiety, that I agree and your observatin is correct of her anxiety, however, I didn't see it that day on the video.
I will keep my mind open with Cindy and narcissism but I will not give up that she is histrionic and has emotional issues.

 

[kiki the parrot]

I think they're a "closed system famliy." I don't think they have many friends.

Ryan is the only one we've heard of, who has known her all her life. He did not endorse her character. Kiomara has known her for years, but not since childhood.

I suspect she burns through friends pretty fast, then moves on.

(bold mine) I guarantee it! KC's typical charisma and lack of empathy enable her to exploit friendships--to chew people up and spit them out once she's through w them--because they were never really friendships. She is a narcissist and they are her suppliers. JMO

 

[kiki the parrot]

(I bolded to respond)
How are you getting that Casey mothered Cindy? :waitasec: Not being snarky, just really curious as to how you came to that idea because I just don't see it.

Since the only time I've ever witnessed substantial interaction between Cindy and Casey was while watching the jail videos, I will use the jail visit as an example.

Listening to Cindy talk to Casey, I don't hear or see a narcissistic woman making it all about herself and how much SHE is suffering. (Isn't that what a person with NPD would do, especially in such an emotional situation?) I certainly saw that in her daughter, though.
Despite her attempts to remain strong and in control, as would be natural with her dominant personality, I do see fear in Cindy. Nervous energy, glaring at her daughter suspiciously, there is an obvious sense of desperation. She is choosing her words carefully- at times it almost seems she is playing devil's advocate. (makes sense, since she is talking to a snake in the grass, figuratively anyway) Cindy tells Casey about the efforts to find Caylee. Asks her question after question, always keeping to the subject at hand and her eyes on Casey. Asks Casey to look her in the eyes (at which time Casey breaks into tears...how telling) At no time do I recall Cindy making any of it about herself. To the contrary, Casey is told not to worry about her (Cindy), not to worry about protecting the family, not to worry about anyone but Caylee. Just do what ever it takes that will lead them to Caylee. Meanwhile, Casey is all woe is me, refers to herself over and over and over again..wah wah wah.

I am not seeing NPD with Cindy.

I am. Like the role reversal or blurring of parent-child roles eg, when CA and GA were having troubles during their marriage--and CA chooses KC to be her confidante. (It was never hard for me to imagine this, nor later after her parents had reconciled, why it might have been hard for KC to forgive and accept GA.) Also frequently wondered whether much of CA's mothering of Caylee was limited to those times when it was gratifying her own needs. That began, of course, w insisting KC not adopt out Caylee--yet not fully willing to assume this responsibility herself.

Casey is an empty vessel....she has developed an inadequate personality....an emotional cripple. The relationship between mother and daughter here is complex and intertwined. Cindy and kc have always tried to attain an even playing field. No clear cut "I am the parent" going on here. Cindy’s co-dependence prevented it. They would switch roles when it benefited them and that is where the trouble started. kc would mother Cindy and Cindy never recognized this boundary limits.

It appears that kc and Lee have never learned skills to take care of themselves. Cindy's was not teaching them independence, which is what good parenting is all about. Her goal seems to be to teach them to "need" her.

It looks like Lee is back in the nest. He is an odd one, that man. He has a temper that is always just under the radar, waiting to erupt. He seems like a guy that likes to help but gets lost in the details He grew up in a stormy environment. He seeks approval from his sister and Mom. Do not see him relating to his father at all. He is impulsive and could get in trouble because of it. He may be a "Momma's Boy"..

George is the official “Bad Boy” of the clan. He is the outcast. He was caught and punished for his behavior. He was taken off the deed to the house. Cindy told her children what he did and split him off from the clan. She keeps him around for adornment. He appears to love Cindy. Of course, it could be need.

(bold mine) This is right on the money! Sadly tho it appears that KC, unlike GA, was spared any consequences.

I can understand your questions because I struggled with the term somtimes also. Keep in mind, Cindy is not pathological. Her daughter is. There is a difference in narcissism between ordinary and pathological.

Casey controlled Cindy in many ways. Take a look at the first call/video from jail. you will observe Cindy turning to mush and backing down. I suggest the dynamics in that home were a roller coaster ride with these two women switching it up. I will also go as far to say that kc controlled the whole house. She could play many roles. Kc controlled Cindy and she was starting to lose some of her control when Caylee was born.

As far as Cindy questioning kc, I didn't see much questioning going on of any significance. She led her with questions and guided her to get the answers she wanted to hear. She cajoled her with, 'It's ok sweetheart".
There was not ONE hard question asked, but lots of support.

Do you think because Cindy was telling her not to worry about any harm coming to the parents was necessary? All that did was tell everyone how big and strong 'WE" Anthonys are....self-serving, IMO. Where are the tough questions? Through any of the videos between Cindy and Casey, nothing is accomplished. It goes nowhere, it turns out to some mutual lovefeast for the two of them.

IMO, Cindy puts on her "motherly" persona when she is on the air. It helps her image, she thinks.

Yes, control-freaks are born out of nervousness and anxiety, that I agree and your observatin is correct of her anxiety, however, I didn't see it that day on the video. I will keep my mind open with Cindy and narcissism but I will not give up that she is histrionic and has emotional issues.

(bold mine) Agree w bolded! There was a shift in CA's focus, as well as a power shift--from CA to KC--once Caylee was born. I could not say the degree of CA's narcissism, only that her parenting style fits well with the definition of narcissistic--ie parent-centered, vs child-centered--parenting. JMHUO (unprofessional)

 

[kiki the parrot]

Ya I know there's something definitely unhealthy went on in that house, and definitely she does infuriate people with her babbling balogney, I'm just saying, lotta crack heads out there dumping their kids into lives of total hopelessness, devoid of any kind of love or caring. Imagine a world where every little child could have a room like that.

Sure ... but not if 20 years of the same parenting produces another 'KC.' Because even if it was an accident; even if the negligence involved didn't rise to the level of culpable; even if KC's self-involvement and inattentiveness eg were "all" that put her child at risk of harm or the worst cause of Caylee's death), at this stage we already know enough about the cover-up that no one can believe the way KC responded is how any stableminded, mature, well-adjusted, responsible adult would behave. Just saying might be better off in a sparsely furnished room w stark walls and fewer stuffies, but where they're taught boundaries and consequences, ie not raised in a permissive, yet over-controlling fashion but can begin to function independently--and eventually as a responsible parent themselves.

I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

You're doing fine! If you want I'll PM (private message) the abbreviations I've picked up... in the whole four months I've been here! LOL (laughing out loud) or may be a thread about that somewhere IIRC (if I recall correctly).

 

[kiki the parrot]

BTW-- Sociopaths are thought to often have been born that way.

Oh here we go, here we go... :banghead:

You should know better than to get me started Brini LOLOL :floorlaugh:

Actually... (lol for the benefit of those just jumping into this neverending debate!) sociopaths are thought to often become this way, as much of what we've learned re personality development concludes that while there may be some genetic predisposition, sociopathy is learned. (Lest we leave anyone w the impression that despite the most skillful, child-centered, responsible parenting w/ consistent and appropriate discipline and boundaries we would be somehow still helpless to train up empathic, moral, well-adjusted children... nor, heaven forbid, would we wish to perpetuate the myth of the Demon Seed by omitting or minimizing the role of this well established link...

So for those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are not in fact simply "born" this way--rather to the contrary there is a wealth of research and clinical evidence to the contrary that this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood. JMO
:blowkiss:

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I love reading all of your posts here on this thread. So much insight by seemingly knowledgeable individuals.

My layman opinion is THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIGGIN NUTS.

 

[Crafti]

I jumped into this case real late in the game, and I probably shouldn't even be posting cause I haven't been watching it all for long. I don't know the initials you all use on teh board or who all the players are, I just thought, wow, there's a child that's loved when I saw that room. I know looks can be so deceiving.

Ding, Ding, Ding. (Red by me) Nobody saw these rooms UNTIL CA wanted someone to. Nobody knows what they REALLY looked like prior to inviting the media in to defend KC and show how much Caylee was loved by her. I think it was mostly staged. Never even considered what was shown in that interview as accurate to their life.

 

[Crafti]

Oh here we go, here we go... don't get me started Brini LOLOL :banghead: :floorlaugh:
Actually... (for the benefit of those just jumping in this never ending debate!) sociopaths are thought to often become this way, as much of what we've learned re personality development condludes that while there may be some genetic predisposition, sociopathy is learned. (Lest we leave anyone w the impression that despite the most skillful child-centered, responsible parenting w/ consistent and appropriate discipline and boundaries we would be somehow helpless to train up empathic, moral, well-adjusted children... nor, heaven forbid, would we ever wish to undermine or minimize those well established links...

For those who believe KC eg is a true, coldblooded sociopath, most mental health experts have reached a widely shared conclusion that sociopaths are not in fact simply "born" this way--rather to the contrary there is a wealth of research and clinical evidence to the contrary that this is instead largely determined by parenting extremes during childhood. JMO
:blowkiss:

There's also alot of belief that there IS a genetic link. My medically diagnosed antisocial X did indeed have genetic defects (I lost our baby at 11 hours old due to one of them), and he was far from abused as a child.

I do not think that upbringing alone causes these severe personality disorders.

 

[ziggy]

But what is abuse?

CPS doesn't think my stepdaughter is being abused, but she is being trained as a sociopath and psycopath by her mother of the same ilk.

The devil, or whatever you want to call it is strong. The opening is there at a young age and it takes over.

Spoiling a child can be just as abusive as physical harm if there is a family member that can pass on this trait.

IMO only, but hey, I've seen it and I think I'm right

 

[kiki the parrot]

I love reading all of your posts here on this thread. So much insight by seemingly knowledgeable individuals.

My layman opinion is THEY ARE ALL JUST FRIGGIN NUTS.

Lol that's deep.

There's also alot of belief that there IS a genetic link. My medically diagnosed antisocial X did indeed have genetic defects (I lost our baby at 11 hours old due to one of them), and he was far from abused as a child.

I do not think that upbringing alone causes these severe personality disorders.

(bold mine) Which is why I had to preface my opening statement w "while there may be some genetic predisposition." That in and of itself, however, isn't thought to be sufficient alone either to cause sociopathy. There are sociological triggers or conditioners, hence the name socio-pathy (vs psychopathy eg). There doesn't seem much point in totally dismissing one, or the other, and I've acknowledged there is a predisposing factor. JMO

But what is abuse?

CPS doesn't think my stepdaughter is being abused, but she is being trained as a sociopath and psycopath by her mother of the same ilk.

The devil, or whatever you want to call it is strong. The opening is there at a young age and it takes over.

Spoiling a child can be just as abusive as physical harm if there is a family member that can pass on this trait.

IMO only, but hey, I've seen it and I think I'm right

Scary what people can do... and stay out of prison. So much of it is generational. Parenting extremes, at either end, have proven to be harmful to a child's personality development, emotional growth etc. We know excessive coddling and permissiveness, lack of boundaries or consequences, and inaccountability eg can be as harmful as harsh, severe or overly critical parenting. ITA! And when both extremes are present this is what is thought to produce pathological narcissism. JMUO (unprofessional!)

 

[nancy botwin]

The similarities between this case and the Scott Peterson case still really intrigue me:

1. Scott, was by all accounts the darling of the family -- could do no wrong. (KC)

2. His business skills were marginal at best - it wasn't doing well (KC's life skills are poor)

3. He was a sexual prowler -- unfaithful to Laci several times. (KC was apparently sexually needy and a prowler in her own way as well)

4. He lied convincingly and without remorse. (we know how that goes with KC!)

5. He was extremely, superficially, a pleasant, glib guy.

6. He disposed of Laci like garbage at the bottom of the bay. (KC IMHO)

7. His mother, Jackie Peterson was combative, and graceless. (draw your own conclusions :crazy

8. To this day, and against all facts, she claims LE misrepresented her son, the truth, and is innocent of all charges. (we'll have to wait and see any comparisons to CA on this one.)

9. His courtroom demeanor was detached and bordered on arrogant. (KC?)

10. He never confessed and probably never will (we'll see)

11. He is a model prisoner by all accounts.

Nature vs. nurture? I have no idea, but the personalities and family dynamics are strikingly similar.

I totally agree-- Peterson has been mentioned a lot in this forum, piquing my interest to read more about the case. I'm currently reading A Deadly Game, Catherine Crier's book about the Peterson case. I haven't finished it yet-- but IMO it's an excellent book. Crier purports to include a lot of previously unreleased information, transcripts from Peterson's wiretapped phone conversations etc.

As I read it, I constantly note the intense similarities between Casey and Scott Peterson's communication style-- the circularity of speech, the deflection tactics, etc.

At one point in the book, Crier analyzes Peterson's constant lying and writes:
"More and more, Scott's behavior was calling to mind Hitler's theory reminiscent of the big lie: If you say soemthing completely outrageous, but repeat it often enough, many will finally believe you. Over the years, Scott had evidently learned simply to bulldoze his way through such confrontations. More often than not, he would succeed." (Casey!)

Also, Casey's fake emails about her fake job are reminiscent of the three fake academic degrees Peterson purchased on the internet.

Casey's Hot Body Contest and nights at Fusian are also somewhat reminiscent of Scott's decision to add premium adult channels to his cable package in the days after he murdered Laci.

Casey is quickly irritated or uncomfortable when conversation focuses on Caylee. Peterson seemed similarly annoyed and uncomfortable when asked about Conner.

And, of course, their inappropriate courtroom affect: