Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[bookworm474]

I've mentioned a couple of times that the As as a whole have similarities to Mafia families. They take care of their own, play by their own rules, have their own sense of morality and ethics, punish their own, circle the wagons, value loyalty, etc.

I started reading Hare's (and Babiak's) Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work. Robert Hare is one of the foremost authorities on psychopathy. They clarify the distinctions between psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD. It's the first time I've seen these distinctions made, but they are very useful, IMO. I've left out ASPD because I don't think it's relevant here.

I've mentioned more than once that I think that Cindy has strong narcissistic traits at the very least, and I still believe that, but was not able to figure out why the collusion on everyone's part, why the eagerness to lie on the part of the entire family, why the hostility against the entire world, why the circling of wagons, why the reprehensible and inappropriate reactions and behaviour. Why do they remind me of Mafia families?

The As' behaviour seems consistent with this description of sociopathy. It certainly might explain a lot! And raises a whole lot of questions as well.

If anyone wants to also argue against this idea, I would be interested to know the reasons the As behaviour does not seem consistent with this descriptions of sociopathy.

-----------------------
Good observations

The labels are not as good as the descriptions and elements of relationship in family and outside.

I read a book which I don't have in front of me, but from it I understood more about closed families. It was a sociological study of the poverty in southern Italy and how it was so hard to change the people there. They had to stick together to survive. So in a sense it is a kind of tribal system that had a fear of change and outsiders. Families had to send relatives up north to send money home.

Seeing a family through the media can't really be fair. They might not have been then who they are now, with all the pressure, distortion and having to defend themselves constantly not knowing how to handle it all. Many mistakes were made.

What has started to really bother me about the Anthonys and their pattern of losing, stealing, and depending on Cindy's job, is that the family became way out of balance. I will bet that the friction is over George not making the bread and that psychological effect on Casey, maybe Lee too.

There is a strange ambivalence about George. He has allowed himself to regress over the last few years, or he didn't get a good work foundation to keep Cindy from being dominant. It is like she is the male and he is the female psychologically playing with that imbalance of powers. If it has been that way for years, that has messed up Casey's understanding of many things creating the distortions that have gotten acted out.

Or it might have been created by Casey's manipulations forcing George to back off and let Cindy duke it out with Casey not realizing how far it could go. They should have been in family therapy years ago. I don't think George had enough of an effect on the females as they prefer fantasy to reason and all that goes with it.

It is subtle and they both are trying to find a positive philosophy with the baggage of what Casey has done with whatever they were ignorant about.

They have to work it out and their lawyer now is like re-parenting them which is great. They have to be really exhausted by now.

 

[shgrbkr]

I've mentioned a couple of times that the As as a whole have similarities to Mafia families. They take care of their own, play by their own rules, have their own sense of morality and ethics, punish their own, circle the wagons, value loyalty, etc.

I started reading Hare's (and Babiak's) Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work. Robert Hare is one of the foremost authorities on psychopathy. They clarify the distinctions between psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD. It's the first time I've seen these distinctions made, but they are very useful, IMO. I've left out ASPD because I don't think it's relevant here.

I've mentioned more than once that I think that Cindy has strong narcissistic traits at the very least, and I still believe that, but was not able to figure out why the collusion on everyone's part, why the eagerness to lie on the part of the entire family, why the hostility against the entire world, why the circling of wagons, why the reprehensible and inappropriate reactions and behaviour. Why do they remind me of Mafia families?

The As' behaviour seems consistent with this description of sociopathy. It certainly might explain a lot! And raises a whole lot of questions as well.

If anyone wants to also argue against this idea, I would be interested to know the reasons the As behaviour does not seem consistent with this descriptions of sociopathy.

Regarding Cindy specifically, from the very beginning I felt a weird vibe from her. I'm not a psych professional, but I do read people pretty well and knew she was a wolf in sheep's wool (or however the saying goes). ITA that she has very strong narcissistic tendencies...remember how she prefaced so many interviews with statements about her lack of sleep, etc....and she did the same thing at the memorial (shame on her) by starting out telling the world how she'd been sick with a cold and sore throat.
Yes, this entire family is a mess, and I have to wonder how in the world did George last this long? Did Cindy and kids belittle George to the nth degree and he just lost sight of himself, so much that he "couldn't" leave to save his own skin? Just wondering out loud here, but would appreciate a comment/insight from someone else about this subject.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Does the Brace Type C correspond to any current DSM nomenclature for a specific personality disorder? Or combine one or more PD?

I'm confused by certain cognitive descriptions of the Type C which I'd expect on Mental Status or psychometrics to suggest disorders other than PD,
e.g."loose associations." If APD, one would not expect psych tests to show the Type C "narrowed focus of attention" but tendency to widely, effectively
use environmental scanning in pursuit of need-satisfaction.

The Type C appears to share some characteristics with Kohut's Narcissistic Behavior Disorders (which would probably be Antisocial PD &/or some of the
sexual disorders in DSM-IV-TR), Or Kernberg's Borderline PD. Comments?

The BRACE Character Profile is not based on the DSM, but each of the DSM personality disorders can be profiled using the BRACE Character Profile, and any profile can be correlated with others profiles, making it easy to correlate any individual with all of the DSM personality disorders simultaneously. Some Axis I disorders lend themselves to such profiling, such as Asperger’s Disorder or ADHD. However, the BRACE Character Profile just deals with clusters of characteristics and can not make any independent clinical determination as to diagnosis.

The BRACE Type C, and the BRACE Types A and B, represent core aspects of basic human nature (each consisting of eight cognitive variables, eight behavioral variables and eight existential or motivational variables), which in combination make up an individual’s character. That is, one individual = a combination of A, B, and C characteristics in each of the three domains (cognitive, behavior, motivation). In a rough general sense, Type A relates more to matters of safety and security (i.e., risk and opportunity management - judgment, self-discipline, self-restraint, organization and planning, executive functioning), Type B relates more to matters of power and control (i.e., method – use of force and violence, willingness to violate the rights of others), and Type C relates more to matters of pleasure and comfort (i.e., motive - both pleasure seeking and pain avoidance, types of functional reinforcers and punishers).

I just thought it was interesting that the description of a prototypical Type C pretty much described Casey, whose entire character seems to be dominated by maladaptive pleasure seeking and pain avoidance.

If you are in the area (Denver, Colorado), there will be a poster presentation at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences this Thursday (02/19/09):
http://www.aafs.org/pdf/09Psyc.pdf

A BRACE Character Profile Analysis of Serial Killer Graham Young
J. Arturo Silva, MD*; Russell L. Smith, MS; Gregory B. Leong, MD; Bryan Nelson, MS

Russell

 

[hollyhobby1973]

Good reading, thanks for sharing!

One thing I would disagree with here is the suicide thing.. I would not be surprised if Casey were to kill herself before, during or shortly after trial as a way of maintaining control and avoiding punishment.

But that's just mo.

OLG I am such a fan of your posts, but I will have to disagree here. I think JB has KC totally convinced she is going to beat this wrap and in her fantasy world she will come out of this a victim and live a life of endless interviews. Thats totally my own opinion though:blowkiss:

 

[sharpar]

KC would never actually commit suicide though she may threaten it for attention and
rescue... more manlipulation and to produce guilt or sympathy in the target
No in her mind I am positive she sees herself as blameless and a victim

 

[Mamabear1963]

KC would never actually commit suicide though she may threaten it for attention and
rescue... more manlipulation and to produce guilt or sympathy in the target
No in her mind I am positive she sees herself as blameless and a victim

This. It goes more with the other parts the the personality we have seen

 

[kageykaren]

Food for thought! There have been many astuit posters here describing possible diagnosis of kC and her family. With these observations how would a therpist set up their treatment plans individually, or as couple for the parents. So many people reading the boards have never been through intense counseling before and don't understand how a therapist can help someone especially in this circumstance achieve mental health. Also if anyone could educate the public as to how a jail psychologist works besides initial intake and psychological testing. Does defense team keep a private therapist on call? Thanks for the education you all provide.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Food for thought! There have been many astuit posters here describing possible diagnosis of kC and her family. With these observations how would a therpist set up their treatment plans individually, or as couple for the parents. So many people reading the boards have never been through intense counseling before and don't understand how a therapist can help someone especially in this circumstance achieve mental health. Also if anyone could educate the public as to how a jail psychologist works besides initial intake and psychological testing. Does defense team keep a private therapist on call? Thanks for the education you all provide.

Individual therapy ... not family or couple counseling, IMO.

In the prisons where I have worked, therapy must meet the same standards as community mental health - i.e., individualized treatment plans, some systems with interdisciplinary teams. Other than an inmate with threats to self or others or so-called "residential mental health programs", the inmate must seek therapy and be motivated for adaptive change. Both psychiatric (medications) and psychological therapies have been available, in some cases sophisticated group therapy and activity therapies, as well as education and work activities have been available. Even "therapeutic interaction" in work contexts has been available for special populations. There are a wide range of mental health services available in prison settings, and they have a wide range in cost-effectiveness and general merits. Each state, each prison, each custody level is different. IMO.

Russell

 

[maryaok]

Could she ever become more balanced if they gave her intensive therapy? Is it too late, supposing she doesn't get the death penalty?

 

[per_curiam]

Has this been discussed: I noticed that KC was given the choice of which person she wanted to talk to at the jail, and she chose her dad George. Don't you think that she chose him because he pampers her, doesn't ask obvious questions (like Cindy does) and probably didn't notice the extent of KC's manipulative/skrewed-up ways like Cindy did.

Plus she might try and manipulate her dad too.

 

[sharpar]

YEP - She even said so in the raging video

she also mentioned they were distant and had recently started talking

the day she was arrested - pfftt

George was/ is the easier sell.

 

[txsvicki]

YEP - She even said so in the raging video

she also mentioned they were distant and had recently started talking

the day she was arrested - pfftt

George was/ is the easier sell.

George is no match for Casey plus he doesn't seem to follow through with any of his suspicions. Maybe if he's yelling and screaming like Cindy told her co workers, but not in matching wits.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Could she ever become more balanced if they gave her intensive therapy? Is it too late, supposing she doesn't get the death penalty?

I think Casey would be an excellent candidate for cognitive-behavioral therapy. Based on available information, she does not require psychiatric (i.e., medications) services. She would also be a good candidate for a psycho-educational group. Such therapy should be combined with mandatory productive work and optional education programs. People do not go brain dead when they enter prison and nobody is hard wired for any learned patterns of thought, behavior or motivation. Many are not motivated for adaptive change, but their brains keep working and they are still subject to the natural laws of the universe, including the basic principles of learning.

My opinions,
Russell

 

[BetsyB]

I agree with the above--Casey's personality disorder is not amenable to treatment, per se. She can't be made "all better," or gain what she lacks.

However, she can be taught to channel her behavior appropriately. And productive work is central to this, IMO.

With these observations how would a therpist set up their treatment plans individually, or as couple for the parents.

I would expect that each family member would be treated individually. They're going to need a lot---to process their recent traumas well before addressing any underlying issues. At some point, though, it probably would be very valuable for them to undergo some sort of family therapy--ideally with Mallory, as well, if she's to remain a part of the family constellation.

 

[Mamabear1963]

I agree with the above--Casey's personality disorder is not amenable to treatment, per se. She can't be made "all better," or gain what she lacks.

However, she can be taught to channel her behavior appropriately. And productive work is central to this, IMO.

This. Personality disorders work this way it seems...

 

[jai-yen]

Could she ever become more balanced if they gave her intensive therapy? Is it too late, supposing she doesn't get the death penalty?

Since I am a firm believer in redemption, I can never say it's too late.

With Casey, I honestly believe that the only way she would change is by consistent modeling. "This is how we treat other people", "This is what we do in this situation."

Someone said on one of the many shows that Casey is a "poorly trained sociopath" and that sounds correct to me. She has no clue.

I wish there was a program like that in prison, something to improve people instead of just making them angrier and meaner.



~Jai Yen

 

[Tinsel]

We watched the rant video again last night on NG.

Amazing to see her act, spin, and manipulate, though she knows where the body is, and even how she decorated it and which toys and personal items she tossed out along side of it.

What is the motive for this high-energy, empassioned lying, while the conversation could have been much more subdued under the circumstances ?

Possible motives: feeling the need to take control of the situation with her parents, a type of role reversal. I've seen this before in other lying adult children. They take control of the parents, especially through anger.

Also, notice the body language. She's hunched over, making herself smaller. She clutches at her throat for much of the conversations. These are signs of fear and desperation.

It's very strange too how her tone changes when she describes how life will be when Caylee returns. She is rythmic and subdued in her speech, almost as if she is hypnotizing her parents and herself. This is a kind of frightening thought to me--this kind of hypnotizing speech with a dark energy behind it.

:chicken:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Well, The doc dump was interesting to say the least. We have Cindy on Lexapro (of course, who wouldn't be at such a time?), Klonopin (OK, I figured so from "day one"), Soma and Darvocet. The Soma and Darvocet are prescribed by the same Pdoc. Lexapro, different doc- Klonopin different doc.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/3464-3513redacted.pdf (pages 48-49)

We also have Annie and Michelle telling LE Cindy wanted Caylee to call her, not Casey, mom. That Casey lied- all the time.. told each of them she wanted to be commited to the hospital.. then when they checked up on her she acted like no big deal. They felt she wanted attention. She and her mother competed against one another for Caylee..

The journal- I don't know because of the date ..

 

[indicat]

Well, The doc dump was interesting to say the least. We have Cindy on Lexapro (of course, who wouldn't be at such a time?), Klonopin (OK, I figured so from "day one"), Soma and Darvocet. The Soma and Darvocet are prescribed by the same Pdoc. Lexapro, different doc- Klonopin different doc.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/3464-3513redacted.pdf (pages 48-49)

We also have Annie and Michelle telling LE Cindy wanted Caylee to call her, not Casey, mom. That Casey lied- all the time.. told each of them she wanted to be commited to the hospital.. then when they checked up on her she acted like no big deal. They felt she wanted attention. She and her mother competed against one another for Caylee..

The journal- I don't know because of the date ..

Wow, that's a lot of medication. I know Lexapro is an anti depressant right? And Darvocet is for anxiety, what are the other 2 for?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Wow, that's a lot of medication. I know Lexapro is an anti depressant right? And Darvocet is for anxiety, what are the other 2 for?

Darvocet is for pain- Klonopin is anxiety, Soma is pain, Lexapro is for depression.