Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7

[Verité]

As I say, she disassociates. IMO her (long practiced) ability to disassociate is why people think she doesn't "feel". You learn to not feel living in a home like that, you have to- it's self preservation.

Yay :clap: for the big "d" word (holds a lot of "trash").

 

[Verité]

No, honey! I think a healthy range of emotions is the one thing she does NOT have. I think her emotions are superficial, and entirely involved with self. No normal empathy. No serious concern for anyone but self.

If she had got away with killing Caylee, I think the A's might have been at risk.

And a big clap for the "e" word :clap: "Impaired empathy" applies whether the eventual disorder is said to be "sociopathy" or "borderline" or exclusively "narcissistic"
(which is also a component of the other two, but which I'd doubt as a singular diagnosis), etc. etc. etc.

And how does one wind up with impaired empathy? Didn't receive it during crucial times in childhood, most critically during the "normal narcissistic" phases, i.e. throughout infancy, and especially at 18 months, 5 years, teens, but receives instead a lot of subtle and overt inattention (due to emphasis instead on. . .let's see, maybe cleaning? as an example), as well as regular doses of biting criticism and put-downs which do result in a "damaged self."

This is why a developmental history is so important. . .though it doesn't have to be obtained from parents, coz it can be inferred from the "blanks"
in self-report.

 

[Verité]

Yes, rightfully so about KC's contempt for her mother and I agree.

I'm not so sure about KC not feeling she may be closer to her father. In KC's eyes, I'm sure she may feel GA loves her unconditionally, where her mother constantly berated her and would make demands on her (but never following through) and berating her even more when the demands weren't met.

She asked for her father at the jail. I think at that point in time, she just wanted to feel love from someone and not have to answer any questions.

As for KC's harsh words about her father to her friends, there were by far, many more harsh words about her mother. I think GA knew more unfavorable truths about KC, but was vetoed by CA from doing anything about them.

We see in the jailhouse videos when KC would get upset the phone was always passed to GA to calm KC down. Also, the fact that you tell me she was crying when GA was on the stand (and I will look for that video) has me wondering if she was crying when her mother was on the stand?

Personally, I had a great relationship with my mother and considered her my best friend before her death. However, she was hard on me, whereas my two brothers could do no wrong, ever. That is fine as it made me a strong person, but for many years I saw the difference in treatment and accepted it. I mention this only because I do think mothers are harder on their daughters and expect so much more from them than they do their sons. Now on the other side of the spectrum, I think fathers are much harder on their sons.

Going back to my first statement, I do not think CA and KC had a healthy relationship. CA was trying to run KC's life and berating her and making her feel worthless all the while. When KC met her new group of friends, she probably felt freedom (from her mother) for the first time in her life. Evidently and sadly, she wanted to hold on to that freedom so bad she was willing to do anything.

Geez, talk about word salad. What is my point here? Not sure if I made one, but I'm done (at least with this post). LOL

But, also, I have/feel that haunting recall of when GA would be effectively comforting and CA would jerk phone out of his hand and he would yield,
highlighting for me what was probably a typical moment of parental dynamics. SAD!

 

[Chiquita71]

I feel the side issue of what KC was doing over the past 3 yrs. will be addressed at trial only to prove that the lifestyle she may have been a part of shows her life attentions were not geared to include a child. It appears we can successfully say she wasn't working a straight job except as a 'shot girl" and that job alone I don't feel could sustain her ego.

(Snip Respect kageykaren)

I find statements like this tell me what kind of habits Caylee's mother had:

George Anthony Statement to LE
July24, 2008

(GA is speaking of one of the vigils the Anthonys had at their home)

GA: ...at our house. There were fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of friends of my sons that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years, guys help us out, what's going on? Everything(inaudible)Casey's a good mom. Casey this. Casey's calling a lot. Whenever she's out with Caylee she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking. That's what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she's had for, since she's been a little one, have been over our house. They've been out of the picture.


This sentence says much to me. If: "fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of which were Lee's friends who knew Casey" AND Lee very well "all" were saying that Casey "always" had to keep Caylee away from alcohol or someone smoking, I would take that as Caylee was in a situation with a lot of different people who were drinking and smoking.

Caylee was only two and a half when she passed...fifteen to eighteen people don't know me to come by and say stuff about seeing me around. For two and a half...she must have been doing a lot of 'hanging out.'

...I don't take it into any realm other than what most twenty somethings would be doing. No one thinks of these situations always as "parties' per se...it is hanging out-some people smoke some people drink but they are 21 and that can be normal and benign...

but, when you are twenty something and you have a child...this is when the bolded sentence seems insidious to me. Casey should have been staying at home, tending to Caylee, resting up for work and in general being a very good mom. Do I think everyone can live up to that, or that most mothers live up to that all the time or ever, no. Some women become pregnant and they no longer need a "life"...they have the feelings of nurturing come over them...and for those of us addicted to nurturing(it's biological some of us have to be or the species would not have survived)staying at home or spending every moment with those we love(esp children)IS our life. That is usually the kind of woman/person who most cannot understand a mother like Casey's actions, and not just if she was responsible for Caylee's death but things like having her little girl anywhere other than what was 100% best for Caylee-at all times.

Many mothers, young and not so...are more lax with the environment their child experiences. To be bold: some moms party in front of their kids, date and go out, etc. while they are raising them. I don't think that has to be a terrible thing, I don't think that automatically makes you a bad mother or will make your kids messed up but...it still could not have been all that great for Caylee to have been around twenty somethings smoking and drinking all the time. And, if things hadn't turned out the way they did, with Caylee being found...we might be looking at a grown Caylee with some mother issues and a large psychiatry bill.

But they did find Caylee...and so now people want to know what kind of mother Casey was. I understand because I wanted to know also. That is a complicated question with a complicated answer because all of us are complicated human beings. Layers and layers...but we can come to a personal overall opinion based on feeling and some information.

This is my personal opinion that is based on how I was taught...but mostly what is in my own heart. I do not think a good mother, a mother who is in tune with her child, who has properly bonded with that child...would ever have them in the situations that Casey had Caylee in-even the most benign.

My cousin and I were born six months apart, she has three girls and one boy. I watched as she went after man, after man...asking her girls about the profiles on the internet: "is he cute for mommy?" to her girls. I think that is being a terrible mother. I am from the school that you give up yourself when you have a child, but I also do not realistically expect teen and twenty-something mothers to suddenly be super responsible nor do I begrudge them wanting to have a "life.'

Casey did not want to have Caylee. Cindy made her, then lorded Caylee over her. Cindy is not a good mom either, in my book. She is the opposite of the story above. She was not the young mom that took her child to friends where they were smoking and drinking...good mom? No...she also never became in tune with her daughter, never truly bonded with her either. Its not whether you are a mom who parties or a mom like Cindy who likes everything too look like she is salt of the earth- a bad mom is a disconnected mom.

Casey learned to be a poor mother from her mother...and after reading the SP interview...I see where Cindy got her mothering from. For a missing great granddaughter SP shows more concern for her missing cat, she calls her son an idiot or stupid-for (paraphrased)"telling lies about Casey/Cindy/George on a web site" and even when LE corrects her and goes about in a long and detailed way to express to her that her son was DEFENDING CA/CA/GA she STILL insists he is an idiot...and she trails off onto some other subject...hum. She wasn't listening to what the officers were telling her...she was stuck on what Cindy told her happened-that's not someone who looks at the now moment and lives in reality.

Caylee was last in a line of cold mothers.(My guess at what part of her souls business was this time):blowkiss:

I am waiting for the trial to understand more. I am making a opinion based on just what I know but in doing so...I don't think anybody was really looking out for Caylee for her sake: not her mother, granddmother, grandfather, uncle or greatgrandmother. It's not that I doubt that they love just how they love.

Update: I wanted to add: I do think the behavior of all the people in Caylee's life makes them crazy. I would call these people crazy. Is that a reason to let them off the hook? Is that a reason to find Casey "not guilty" if she did do something to hurt her daughter? Not to me. Say she is crazy but you still have to have justice(whatever that may be).

...jmo...

 

[Verité]

Thanks, Chiquita for the above!

Sure fills in gaps for me as I've been wondering about the previous generational link to erosion of self-esteem. Words sure can cut through like knives
and shred and excise the self/soul.

 

[songline]

(Snip Respect kageykaren)

I find statements like this tell me what kind of habits Caylee's mother had:

George Anthony Statement to LE
July24, 2008

(GA is speaking of one of the vigils the Anthonys had at their home)

GA: ...at our house. There were fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of friends of my sons that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years, guys help us out, what's going on? Everything(inaudible)Casey's a good mom. Casey this. Casey's calling a lot. Whenever she's out with Caylee she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking. That's what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she's had for, since she's been a little one, have been over our house. They've been out of the picture.


This sentence says much to me. If: "fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of which were Lee's friends who knew Casey" AND Lee very well "all" were saying that Casey "always" had to keep Caylee away from alcohol or someone smoking, I would take that as Caylee was in a situation with a lot of different people who were drinking and smoking.

Caylee was only two and a half when she passed...fifteen to eighteen people don't know me to come by and say stuff about seeing me around. For two and a half...she must have been doing a lot of 'hanging out.'

...I don't take it into any realm other than what most twenty somethings would be doing. No one thinks of these situations always as "parties' per se...it is hanging out-some people smoke some people drink but they are 21 and that can be normal and benign...

but, when you are twenty something and you have a child...this is when the bolded sentence seems insidious to me. Casey should have been staying at home, tending to Caylee, resting up for work and in general being a very good mom. Do I think everyone can live up to that, or that most mothers live up to that all the time or ever, no. Some women become pregnant and they no longer need a "life"...they have the feelings of nurturing come over them...and for those of us addicted to nurturing(it's biological some of us have to be or the species would not have survived)staying at home or spending every moment with those we love(esp children)IS our life. That is usually the kind of woman/person who most cannot understand a mother like Casey's actions, and not just if she was responsible for Caylee's death but things like having her little girl anywhere other than what was 100% best for Caylee-at all times.

Many mothers, young and not so...are more lax with the environment their child experiences. To be bold: some moms party in front of their kids, date and go out, etc. while they are raising them. I don't think that has to be a terrible thing, I don't think that automatically makes you a bad mother or will make your kids messed up but...it still could not have been all that great for Caylee to have been around twenty somethings smoking and drinking all the time. And, if things hadn't turned out the way they did, with Caylee being found...we might be looking at a grown Caylee with some mother issues and a large psychiatry bill.

But they did find Caylee...and so now people want to know what kind of mother Casey was. I understand because I wanted to know also. That is a complicated question with a complicated answer because all of us are complicated human beings. Layers and layers...but we can come to a personal overall opinion based on feeling and some information.

This is my personal opinion that is based on how I was taught...but mostly what is in my own heart. I do not think a good mother, a mother who is in tune with her child, who has properly bonded with that child...would ever have them in the situations that Casey had Caylee in-even the most benign.

<<<SNIPED for space>>>
...jmo...

I was very young when I had my daughter - KC's age but married.
(old fashiond parents believed girls need to be married :doh back to topic.
Because I was so young we had so many many friend come over. Not at dinner time, not when I had to bath and put baby to sleep. but the house was always with people.
Most of my frinds at that age did not have their own "pad"
They were allowed to smoke in the back yard but not in the house because of the baby, they were allowd to bring beer on friday.Sat night but not during the week.
It is all in the perception....I do not think she did anything bad here.

But when we talk about family Patterns - They are certainly invisible until you become consciouses of them.
Did KC mimic her parents? WELL...that is the way it usually works.
I can not see how the Apple can fall far from the tree without professional guidance.

BUT I can see how bad influences (the past few months - New Friends) can throw your life into turmoil - and change your world 4 ever.

 

[Brini]

And a big clap for the "e" word :clap: "Impaired empathy" applies whether the eventual disorder is said to be "sociopathy" or "borderline" or exclusively "narcissistic"
(which is also a component of the other two, but which I'd doubt as a singular diagnosis), etc. etc. etc.

And how does one wind up with impaired empathy? Didn't receive it during crucial times in childhood, most critically during the "normal narcissistic" phases, i.e. throughout infancy, and especially at 18 months, 5 years, teens, but receives instead a lot of subtle and overt inattention (due to emphasis instead on. . .let's see, maybe cleaning? as an example), as well as regular doses of biting criticism and put-downs which do result in a "damaged self."

This is why a developmental history is so important. . .though it doesn't have to be obtained from parents, coz it can be inferred from the "blanks"
in self-report.

Ah! Erickson! My lurves Erickson.

Yes, it CAN be inferred, indeed!

But, the problem is... a lot of people have Axis II disorders from bad upbringings and maybe heredity. But, they don't kill babies.

Instead, they have generally chaotic personal lives.

Even if KC could meet the insanity criteria, the courts (and juries) are pretty jaded. Most of what goes through the criminal courts and inhabits the prisons are empathy-impaired, and from bad families.

As are many of the jurors are from abusive families, but are NOT criminals.

And if empathy-deficiency is presented as a defense, the jury is likely to have the same question: So, if we let her go, and she gets pregnant... ?


Bottom line: a lot of people have been abused, even badly. Few choose to kill. And, Axis II disorders don't yield well to treatment.

Now, KC's developmental history would be of great interest to a treator, but not to the courts.

The courts don't care how she got there. They only care whether or not she knew what she was doing.

And, if we just speak of inability to empathize.. that includes Diane Downs, Susan Smith, and the guy who just strangled his wife and kids, so he could be with his g.f. On a more extreme note, it would include Ken Bianchi, Angelo Buono, and Ted Bundy.

Their coldness was not considered any sort of defense, and no court cared where it came from. None of them met the criteria for legal insanity.

 

[Brini]

But, also, I have/feel that haunting recall of when GA would be effectively comforting and CA would jerk phone out of his hand and he would yield,
highlighting for me what was probably a typical moment of parental dynamics. SAD!

Yeah... I twigged to that, too.

My guess is that BOTH the A males have served in that capacity.

 

[Brini]

(Snip Respect kageykaren)

I find statements like this tell me what kind of habits Caylee's mother had:

George Anthony Statement to LE
July24, 2008

(GA is speaking of one of the vigils the Anthonys had at their home)

GA: ...at our house. There were fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of friends of my sons that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years, guys help us out, what's going on? Everything(inaudible)Casey's a good mom. Casey this. Casey's calling a lot. Whenever she's out with Caylee she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking. That's what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she's had for, since she's been a little one, have been over our house. They've been out of the picture.


This sentence says much to me. If: "fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of which were Lee's friends who knew Casey" AND Lee very well "all" were saying that Casey "always" had to keep Caylee away from alcohol or someone smoking, I would take that as Caylee was in a situation with a lot of different people who were drinking and smoking.

Caylee was only two and a half when she passed...fifteen to eighteen people don't know me to come by and say stuff about seeing me around. For two and a half...she must have been doing a lot of 'hanging out.'

...I don't take it into any realm other than what most twenty somethings would be doing. No one thinks of these situations always as "parties' per se...it is hanging out-some people smoke some people drink but they are 21 and that can be normal and benign...

but, when you are twenty something and you have a child...this is when the bolded sentence seems insidious to me. Casey should have been staying at home, tending to Caylee, resting up for work and in general being a very good mom. Do I think everyone can live up to that, or that most mothers live up to that all the time or ever, no. Some women become pregnant and they no longer need a "life"...they have the feelings of nurturing come over them...and for those of us addicted to nurturing(it's biological some of us have to be or the species would not have survived)staying at home or spending every moment with those we love(esp children)IS our life. That is usually the kind of woman/person who most cannot understand a mother like Casey's actions, and not just if she was responsible for Caylee's death but things like having her little girl anywhere other than what was 100% best for Caylee-at all times.

Many mothers, young and not so...are more lax with the environment their child experiences. To be bold: some moms party in front of their kids, date and go out, etc. while they are raising them. I don't think that has to be a terrible thing, I don't think that automatically makes you a bad mother or will make your kids messed up but...it still could not have been all that great for Caylee to have been around twenty somethings smoking and drinking all the time. And, if things hadn't turned out the way they did, with Caylee being found...we might be looking at a grown Caylee with some mother issues and a large psychiatry bill.

But they did find Caylee...and so now people want to know what kind of mother Casey was. I understand because I wanted to know also. That is a complicated question with a complicated answer because all of us are complicated human beings. Layers and layers...but we can come to a personal overall opinion based on feeling and some information.

This is my personal opinion that is based on how I was taught...but mostly what is in my own heart. I do not think a good mother, a mother who is in tune with her child, who has properly bonded with that child...would ever have them in the situations that Casey had Caylee in-even the most benign.

My cousin and I were born six months apart, she has three girls and one boy. I watched as she went after man, after man...asking her girls about the profiles on the internet: "is he cute for mommy?" to her girls. I think that is being a terrible mother. I am from the school that you give up yourself when you have a child, but I also do not realistically expect teen and twenty-something mothers to suddenly be super responsible nor do I begrudge them wanting to have a "life.'

Casey did not want to have Caylee. Cindy made her, then lorded Caylee over her. Cindy is not a good mom either, in my book. She is the opposite of the story above. She was not the young mom that took her child to friends where they were smoking and drinking...good mom? No...she also never became in tune with her daughter, never truly bonded with her either. Its not whether you are a mom who parties or a mom like Cindy who likes everything too look like she is salt of the earth- a bad mom is a disconnected mom.

Casey learned to be a poor mother from her mother...and after reading the SP interview...I see where Cindy got her mothering from. For a missing great granddaughter SP shows more concern for her missing cat, she calls her son an idiot or stupid-for (paraphrased)"telling lies about Casey/Cindy/George on a web site" and even when LE corrects her and goes about in a long and detailed way to express to her that her son was DEFENDING CA/CA/GA she STILL insists he is an idiot...and she trails off onto some other subject...hum. She wasn't listening to what the officers were telling her...she was stuck on what Cindy told her happened-that's not someone who looks at the now moment and lives in reality.

Caylee was last in a line of cold mothers.(My guess at what part of her souls business was this time):blowkiss:

I am waiting for the trial to understand more. I am making a opinion based on just what I know but in doing so...I don't think anybody was really looking out for Caylee for her sake: not her mother, granddmother, grandfather, uncle or greatgrandmother. It's not that I doubt that they love just how they love.

Update: I wanted to add: I do think the behavior of all the people in Caylee's life makes them crazy. I would call these people crazy. Is that a reason to let them off the hook? Is that a reason to find Casey "not guilty" if she did do something to hurt her daughter? Not to me. Say she is crazy but you still have to have justice(whatever that may be).

...jmo...

Or, you can break the verbal, emotional, physical abuse cycle.

My sibs and I did.

It had gone on for at least three generations, on both sides of the family.

My father was a lawyer, and used that high verbal ability to very nasty effect. But, nobody in that generation, or mine, killed any babies.

There is no abuse in our kids' generations. They are loving, happy, and productive.

Bottom line: it doesn't HAVE to be passed forward. And, it's not an excuse, in any case.

She still doesn't meet insanity criteria.

Now, I'm assuming GA and CA ALSO came from severely dysfunctional homes (by their bx). Neither of them killed anyone, either.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I was reading the conversation here about Casey and George's relationship... I thought of a question. Casey was asking her father or hinting at him getting her out of jail. Now Cindy seems to be the powerful one in the relationship, the one that controls most everything, but Casey really presses her father,in jail visit w/ just him, harder to get her out of jail...wonder why ?

 

[panthera]

I was reading the conversation here about Casey and George's relationship... I thought of a question. Casey was asking her father or hinting at him getting her out of jail. Now Cindy seems to be the powerful one in the relationship, the one that controls most everything, but Casey really presses her father,in jail visit w/ just him, harder to get her out of jail...wonder why ?

Maybe it was easier for her to talk to him, but I agree, why plead with someone who isn't "in charge"? :waitasec:

 

[Brini]

I was reading the conversation here about Casey and George's relationship... I thought of a question. Casey was asking her father or hinting at him getting her out of jail. Now Cindy seems to be the powerful one in the relationship, the one that controls most everything, but Casey really presses her father,in jail visit w/ just him, harder to get her out of jail...wonder why ?

KC also asked her father to come see her, then stood him up.

My guess is that she was playing yet another manipulative game, with the folks.

GA can't get her out of jail. He does not have the power to do that.

Now, another reason why she might want to see GA alone, is that CA annoys her with questions about "what she thinks" might have happened to Caylee. She's had a couple of nice tantrums, behind that. GA just kind of goes along with what KC says.

 

[celticthyme]

I am totally giving away my age here, but I grew up in a time when the nuns had us diagramming sentences[/I] ( so we could form a sentence) & write outlines to create papers( so they had some form & flow) . . .My 3 kids ages 19-26, in Private schools & college, to this day write papers I'm aghast they can even turn in. But with the computer /video/cell phone/ electronic communication age, I think the 20-30 age group has become more isolated as individuals, less socialized, and not only do they seem to write & speak in code-ease, but even think that way at times. ( and my kids are on the honor roll) Sorry, this is a lot of words to try and say that my perception is, that the young folk today seem to be ?disconnected from their peers, in ways my generation was not. Not sure if that makes any sense (speaking of trying to communicate) And i really see it with this group of younguns'

 

[Verité]

I agree with all the above posts (page 22). Brini's right-on that no way
could any developmental perspective on impaired empathy be used in
court/or as a defense, and it's so close to shifting blame to the parent for the
criminal behavior of a young adult that I, almost shamefacely, presented it
here. But it does tend to explain.

All afternoon I've been thinking about the revelation of Chiquita about the
instances of ongoing belittling in the maternal lineage of adult males. I feel
badddd about that. If I should ever dare to do that to the fine man who's
my son, I feel confident he'd put me on a longgg time-out. . .certainly until
I made an amends (if I could even find him after such verbal abuse) that convinced him I'd come to my senses and would never do it again.
But I can't even envision a time so bad that I'd want to have him bear the emotional scars of my insults.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I was looking over the Shirley P. interview and am curious...many people, myself included, have assigned some connection between Casey's behavior and her upbringing...Cindy and George's behavior. My question is, what are your thought's on any connection between Cindy's behavior and Shirley ? I realize we don't have a lot of information about Shirley and Cindy's childhood, but given what we do know about Cindy, what would be the likely relationship be like ? Just looking for some thoughts on this...hope it's not too OT.

 

[Blackwatch]

(Snip Respect kageykaren)

I find statements like this tell me what kind of habits Caylee's mother had:

George Anthony Statement to LE
July24, 2008

(GA is speaking of one of the vigils the Anthonys had at their home)

GA: ...at our house. There were fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of friends of my sons that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years, guys help us out, what's going on? Everything(inaudible)Casey's a good mom. Casey this. Casey's calling a lot. Whenever she's out with Caylee she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking. That's what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she's had for, since she's been a little one, have been over our house. They've been out of the picture.


This sentence says much to me. If: "fifteen, eighteen of, not only a couple of which were Lee's friends who knew Casey" AND Lee very well "all" were saying that Casey "always" had to keep Caylee away from alcohol or someone smoking, I would take that as Caylee was in a situation with a lot of different people who were drinking and smoking.

Caylee was only two and a half when she passed...fifteen to eighteen people don't know me to come by and say stuff about seeing me around. For two and a half...she must have been doing a lot of 'hanging out.'

...I don't take it into any realm other than what most twenty somethings would be doing. No one thinks of these situations always as "parties' per se...it is hanging out-some people smoke some people drink but they are 21 and that can be normal and benign...

but, when you are twenty something and you have a child...this is when the bolded sentence seems insidious to me. Casey should have been staying at home, tending to Caylee, resting up for work and in general being a very good mom. Do I think everyone can live up to that, or that most mothers live up to that all the time or ever, no. Some women become pregnant and they no longer need a "life"...they have the feelings of nurturing come over them...and for those of us addicted to nurturing(it's biological some of us have to be or the species would not have survived)staying at home or spending every moment with those we love(esp children)IS our life. That is usually the kind of woman/person who most cannot understand a mother like Casey's actions, and not just if she was responsible for Caylee's death but things like having her little girl anywhere other than what was 100% best for Caylee-at all times.

Many mothers, young and not so...are more lax with the environment their child experiences. To be bold: some moms party in front of their kids, date and go out, etc. while they are raising them. I don't think that has to be a terrible thing, I don't think that automatically makes you a bad mother or will make your kids messed up but...it still could not have been all that great for Caylee to have been around twenty somethings smoking and drinking all the time. And, if things hadn't turned out the way they did, with Caylee being found...we might be looking at a grown Caylee with some mother issues and a large psychiatry bill.

But they did find Caylee...and so now people want to know what kind of mother Casey was. I understand because I wanted to know also. That is a complicated question with a complicated answer because all of us are complicated human beings. Layers and layers...but we can come to a personal overall opinion based on feeling and some information.

This is my personal opinion that is based on how I was taught...but mostly what is in my own heart. I do not think a good mother, a mother who is in tune with her child, who has properly bonded with that child...would ever have them in the situations that Casey had Caylee in-even the most benign.

My cousin and I were born six months apart, she has three girls and one boy. I watched as she went after man, after man...asking her girls about the profiles on the internet: "is he cute for mommy?" to her girls. I think that is being a terrible mother. I am from the school that you give up yourself when you have a child, but I also do not realistically expect teen and twenty-something mothers to suddenly be super responsible nor do I begrudge them wanting to have a "life.'

Casey did not want to have Caylee. Cindy made her, then lorded Caylee over her. Cindy is not a good mom either, in my book. She is the opposite of the story above. She was not the young mom that took her child to friends where they were smoking and drinking...good mom? No...she also never became in tune with her daughter, never truly bonded with her either. Its not whether you are a mom who parties or a mom like Cindy who likes everything too look like she is salt of the earth- a bad mom is a disconnected mom.

Casey learned to be a poor mother from her mother...and after reading the SP interview...I see where Cindy got her mothering from. For a missing great granddaughter SP shows more concern for her missing cat, she calls her son an idiot or stupid-for (paraphrased)"telling lies about Casey/Cindy/George on a web site" and even when LE corrects her and goes about in a long and detailed way to express to her that her son was DEFENDING CA/CA/GA she STILL insists he is an idiot...and she trails off onto some other subject...hum. She wasn't listening to what the officers were telling her...she was stuck on what Cindy told her happened-that's not someone who looks at the now moment and lives in reality.

Caylee was last in a line of cold mothers.(My guess at what part of her souls business was this time):blowkiss:

I am waiting for the trial to understand more. I am making a opinion based on just what I know but in doing so...I don't think anybody was really looking out for Caylee for her sake: not her mother, granddmother, grandfather, uncle or greatgrandmother. It's not that I doubt that they love just how they love.

Update: I wanted to add: I do think the behavior of all the people in Caylee's life makes them crazy. I would call these people crazy. Is that a reason to let them off the hook? Is that a reason to find Casey "not guilty" if she did do something to hurt her daughter? Not to me. Say she is crazy but you still have to have justice(whatever that may be).

...jmo...

Very excellent post. I believe you hit the nail on the head about behavior being passed down "generationally". I thought that from the git go, but didn't want to distress all the people who thought SP was the epitome of grandmotherly sweetness and virtue. As people age they usually chill out.

Once again, EXCELLENT post, thank you.

My opinion only

 

[Chiquita71]

I was very young when I had my daughter - KC's age but married.
(old fashiond parents believed girls need to be married :doh back to topic.
Because I was so young we had so many many friend come over. Not at dinner time, not when I had to bath and put baby to sleep. but the house was always with people.
Most of my frinds at that age did not have their own "pad"
They were allowed to smoke in the back yard but not in the house because of the baby, they were allowd to bring beer on friday.Sat night but not during the week.
It is all in the perception....I do not think she did anything bad here.

But when we talk about family Patterns - They are certainly invisible until you become consciouses of them.
Did KC mimic her parents? WELL...that is the way it usually works.
I can not see how the Apple can fall far from the tree without professional guidance.

BUT I can see how bad influences (the past few months - New Friends) can throw your life into turmoil - and change your world 4 ever.

(Snip Respect)
Hello Songline

I was wanting to get across in my post too...that what Songline is speaking of here is normal to me too. I understand exactly what you are saying about your friends comin over and all that-and its not like you seemed upset about what I wrote or anything but I wanted to clarify that I ONLY think what Casey was doing as a mother now seems suspect because Caylee was found murdered. (I don't like writing the m word but my understanding is that is the offical word on Caylee, yes? Is it officially "murder"? Not saying who murdered her but they can say she was...?)

My point came across not very clear. If nothing had happened to Caylee we wouldn't be worried about her hanging out with some 20 somethings, it is only now that I look at things she did and add them into what kind of mother I think she was. Songline I am sure your children are happy, healthy and most importantly: alive.

I love WS so much and I appreciate everyone here. :blowkiss:

Thanks

 

[Searchfortruth]

Very excellent post. I believe you hit the nail on the head about behavior being passed down "generationally". I thought that from the git go, but didn't want to distress all the people who thought SP was the epitome of grandmotherly sweetness and virtue. As people age they usually chill out.

Once again, EXCELLENT post, thank you.

My opinion only

Yes, I too didn't want to offend anyone w/ my previous post...SP is obviously a very sweet lady. I do think that there must be some reason for Cindy's behavior, not that it's anyone's fault, but sometimes enmeshment CAN look like love. My Grandmother was a wonderful woman, but there was a lot of enmeshment going on, there were certain members of the family that could do no wrong and she would excuse their behavior on a consistent basis. Now, she was nothing like Cindy, but there were certain characteristics, I didn't recognize then, that match up...looking back on it.

 

[Chiquita71]

Okay,

For the sake of being honest with myself I did say that even the most benign of situations involving hanging out makes you a bad mother...like I said...that did not come out well...and now I may be making a mess when nobody cares but...

sigh...Casey drives me crazy. I guess I don't always know what I think about this...I know that her daughter is dead and she is in jail and I don't think you end up there because the police want to pin something on you that you didn't do. I know there have been cases of LE doing that type of thing but I don't know what they would gain from framing Casey?

I know this thread is to discuss the idea of Casey's defense using an insanity plea, and I am talking more here about whether or not I think she is crazy on a personal level so I will make this my last post like this:

I had/have insanity in my own family, and huge mother issues and so this case does make me put personal feelings into what I am saying and I get torn about what I was taught was a good mother...is a good mother...I did not have one so what do I know?

I did come to my senses in that post enough to say that a good mother is one who is in tune with her children...I think that is best how I feel and I will now leave it at that...

Thanks WS for letting me have my two cents.

 

[songline]

Ah! Erickson! My lurves Erickson.

Yes, it CAN be inferred, indeed!

But, the problem is... a lot of people have Axis II disorders from bad upbringings and maybe heredity. But, they don't kill babies.

Instead, they have generally chaotic personal lives.

Even if KC could meet the insanity criteria, the courts (and juries) are pretty jaded. Most of what goes through the criminal courts and inhabits the prisons are empathy-impaired, and from bad families.

As are many of the jurors are from abusive families, but are NOT criminals.

And if empathy-deficiency is presented as a defense, the jury is likely to have the same question: So, if we let her go, and she gets pregnant... ?


Bottom line: a lot of people have been abused, even badly. Few choose to kill. And, Axis II disorders don't yield well to treatment.

Now, KC's developmental history would be of great interest to a treator, but not to the courts.

The courts don't care how she got there. They only care whether or not she knew what she was doing.

And, if we just speak of inability to empathize.. that includes Diane Downs, Susan Smith, and the guy who just strangled his wife and kids, so he could be with his g.f. On a more extreme note, it would include Ken Bianchi, Angelo Buono, and Ted Bundy.

Their coldness was not considered any sort of defense, and no court cared where it came from. None of them met the criteria for legal insanity.

:clap::clap::clap: Good post. Good info....
(I like that you are not analyzing her directly - JMO