Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Their coldness was not a defense and no court cared where it came from. (Thank you Brini: snip respect)

That is interesting. In case you can't tell...this is the first case I ever followed. I don't know what the court sees as insanity. I should have just posted that instead of babbling on earlier.:crazy:

What does the court see as insanity? I have had in-patient treatment for depression and I understand there is a difference between insanity and mental illness-or so I think. I'll take that information to be corrected...

With mental illness and abuse in my own family I do wonder where that line is crossed-is my family insane or mentally ill? I guess if I understood the difference I could make that distinction.

As far as courts or anything legal...to be described as insane or mentally ill would they have to have a diagnosis from the DSM? (The book that has the descriptions of mental disorders) Is that book how we know what is "crazy" and "not"?

I also remember that I was asked if I thought I was a danger to myself or others and only if you answer yes then they can keep you. Maybe this is what is considered along with a diagnosis later to give a professional stamp that says: "insane"?

Thanks

...jmo

 

[Verité]

I was looking over the Shirley P. interview and am curious...many people, myself included, have assigned some connection between Casey's behavior and her upbringing...Cindy and George's behavior. My question is, what are your thought's on any connection between Cindy's behavior and Shirley ? I realize we don't have a lot of information about Shirley and Cindy's childhood, but given what we do know about Cindy, what would be the likely relationship be like ? Just looking for some thoughts on this...hope it's not too OT.

What are your thoughts on all of this?

 

[concentric]

Hello WS

Their coldness was not a defense and no court cared where it came from. (Thank you Brini: snip respect)

That is interesting. In case you can't tell...this is the first case I ever followed. I don't know what the court sees as insanity. I should have just posted that instead of babbling on earlier.:crazy:

What does the court see as insanity? I have had in-patient treatment for depression and I understand there is a difference between insanity and mental illness-or so I think. I'll take that information to be corrected...

With mental illness and abuse in my own family I do wonder where that line is crossed-is my family insane or mentally ill? I guess if I understood the difference I could make that distinction.

As far as courts or anything legal...to be described as insane or mentally ill would they have to have a diagnosis from the DSM? (The book that has the descriptions of mental disorders) Is that book how we know what is "crazy" and "not"?

I also remember that I was asked if I thought I was a danger to myself or others and only if you answer yes then they can keep you. Maybe this is what is considered along with a diagnosis later to give a professional stamp that says: "insane"?

Thanks

...jmo

Wonder what the final word will be on KC's diagnosis from a Forensic Psychologist/Psychiatrist? Guess we won't hear it until trial.

 

[Searchfortruth]

What are your thoughts on all of this?

Well, I am certainly no professional, not even close, but have read up on enmeshment issues. I never realized that I came from that type of family until I myself started counseling. I do know that it is behavior, learned, that is passed down generally. I think Shirley may have had some of the enmeshment tendencies, but that is just a guess on my part.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Yes, rightfully so about KC's contempt for her mother and I agree.

I'm not so sure about KC not feeling she may be closer to her father. In KC's eyes, I'm sure she may feel GA loves her unconditionally, where her mother constantly berated her and would make demands on her (but never following through) and berating her even more when the demands weren't met.

She asked for her father at the jail. I think at that point in time, she just wanted to feel love from someone and not have to answer any questions.

As for KC's harsh words about her father to her friends, there were by far, many more harsh words about her mother. I think GA knew more unfavorable truths about KC, but was vetoed by CA from doing anything about them.

We see in the jailhouse videos when KC would get upset the phone was always passed to GA to calm KC down. Also, the fact that you tell me she was crying when GA was on the stand (and I will look for that video) has me wondering if she was crying when her mother was on the stand?

Personally, I had a great relationship with my mother and considered her my best friend before her death. However, she was hard on me, whereas my two brothers could do no wrong, ever. That is fine as it made me a strong person, but for many years I saw the difference in treatment and accepted it. I mention this only because I do think mothers are harder on their daughters and expect so much more from them than they do their sons. Now on the other side of the spectrum, I think fathers are much harder on their sons.

Going back to my first statement, I do not think CA and KC had a healthy relationship. CA was trying to run KC's life and berating her and making her feel worthless all the while. When KC met her new group of friends, she probably felt freedom (from her mother) for the first time in her life. Evidently and sadly, she wanted to hold on to that freedom so bad she was willing to do anything.

Geez, talk about word salad. What is my point here? Not sure if I made one, but I'm done (at least with this post). LOL

LOL- I love a word salad, I got your point! :blowkiss:

 

[Verité]

LOL- I love a word salad, I got your point! :blowkiss:

And I love your Avatar. The best!

 

[OneLostGrl]

And a big clap for the "e" word :clap: "Impaired empathy" applies whether the eventual disorder is said to be "sociopathy" or "borderline" or exclusively "narcissistic"
(which is also a component of the other two, but which I'd doubt as a singular diagnosis), etc. etc. etc.

And how does one wind up with impaired empathy? Didn't receive it during crucial times in childhood, most critically during the "normal narcissistic" phases, i.e. throughout infancy, and especially at 18 months, 5 years, teens, but receives instead a lot of subtle and overt inattention (due to emphasis instead on. . .let's see, maybe cleaning? as an example), as well as regular doses of biting criticism and put-downs which do result in a "damaged self."

This is why a developmental history is so important. . .though it doesn't have to be obtained from parents, coz it can be inferred from the "blanks"
in self-report.

We don't even need a developmental history.. it's the same ol' story. A personality disordered "insert mothers name" and a "insert fathers name" too weak & beaten down by (more likely than not, his OWN personality disordered mother and then the woman he married to take his mommy's place. OR he was smart enough to leave her a$$ but was too self centered to worry about what she'd do to the children and just moved on with his life) his wife to do a f^c#in' thing about it. So the children live their lives feeling lonely, unloved & worthless. They never know what to expect from the mother ( for example- is she going to love me today or is it going to be my fault the car broke down?... is she going to make dinner today or is she going to scream and yell about how she's the only person who does anything around here and if we want to eat feed our own damn selves!) so there is constant fear.

They grow up having their feelings.. their emotions invalidated & belittled. Their childhood, their lives are never about them, it's always about the mother and what she wants and what she expects. She berates her "loved ones" in private but equates them to G0d Himself in public. She is chaotic (draaamaaa), she lies, blame shifts, compliments one day the same thing she ridicules the next, she pits the children against one another, sometimes just for fun she'll pit the father and children against one another (of course, leaving no proof of this). Then she sits back and watches the show.. pointing fingers and blaming and ridiculing the entire time.

I know some of the story changes depending on the people involved but the behaviors are the same.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't need me to school you on the "ism's" of personality disorders :crazy:. My own word salad here (LOL) was just to say that IMO the "developmental history" is that these are children who are hostages of a parent with untreated personality disorders. They can't leave, they can't choose. So they learn to cope as best they can.

 

[Brini]

We don't even need a developmental history.. it's the same ol' story. A personality disordered "insert mothers name" and a "insert fathers name" too weak & beaten down by (more likely than not, his OWN personality disordered mother and then the woman he married to take his mommy's place. OR he was smart enough to leave her a$$ but was too self centered to worry about what she'd do to the children and just moved on with his life) his wife to do a f^c#in' thing about it. So the children live their lives feeling lonely, unloved & worthless. They never know what to expect from the mother ( for example- is she going to love me today or is it going to be my fault the car broke down?... is she going to make dinner today or is she going to scream and yell about how she's the only person who does anything around here and if we want to eat feed our own damn selves!) so there is constant fear.

They grow up having their feelings.. their emotions invalidated & belittled. Their childhood, their lives are never about them, it's always about the mother and what she wants and what she expects. She berates her "loved ones" in private but equates them to G0d Himself in public. She is chaotic (draaamaaa), she lies, blame shifts, compliments one day the same thing she ridicules the next, she pits the children against one another, sometimes just for fun she'll pit the father and children against one another (of course, leaving no proof of this). Then she sits back and watches the show.. pointing fingers and blaming and ridiculing the entire time.

I know some of the story changes depending on the people involved but the behaviors are the same.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't need me to school you on the "ism's" of personality disorders :crazy:. My own word salad here (LOL) was just to say that IMO the "developmental history" is that these are children who are hostages of a parent with untreated personality disorders. They can't leave, they can't choose. So they learn to cope as best they can.

Sounds like my background. And, yours!:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Well, I am certainly no professional, not even close, but have read up on enmeshment issues. I never realized that I came from that type of family until I myself started counseling. I do know that it is behavior, learned, that is passed down generally. I think Shirley may have had some of the enmeshment tendencies, but that is just a guess on my part.

Ugh, I wasn't on last night (was off making graphics) so I'm way behind- I haven't seen the entire conversation regarding this so just tell me to shut up if I'm understanding the conversation wrong, OK?! LOL

I come from a personality disordered home as well and wonder much about Cindy's past, her childhood. A "Cindy" doesn't just happen, IMO

All her fake sweetness with the bite in the middle... the smile never leaving her face so nobody but the intended victim knows that it was what it was. arrggh!

 

[Brini]

I am totally giving away my age here, but I grew up in a time when the nuns had us diagramming sentences[/I] ( so we could form a sentence) & write outlines to create papers( so they had some form & flow) . . .My 3 kids ages 19-26, in Private schools & college, to this day write papers I'm aghast they can even turn in. But with the computer /video/cell phone/ electronic communication age, I think the 20-30 age group has become more isolated as individuals, less socialized, and not only do they seem to write & speak in code-ease, but even think that way at times. ( and my kids are on the honor roll) Sorry, this is a lot of words to try and say that my perception is, that the young folk today seem to be ?disconnected from their peers, in ways my generation was not. Not sure if that makes any sense (speaking of trying to communicate) And i really see it with this group of younguns'

I used to enjoy diagramming sentences! So, you dated BOTH of us! :blowkiss:

 

[Brini]

I agree with all the above posts (page 22). Brini's right-on that no way
could any developmental perspective on impaired empathy be used in
court/or as a defense, and it's so close to shifting blame to the parent for the
criminal behavior of a young adult that I, almost shamefacely, presented it
here. But it does tend to explain.

All afternoon I've been thinking about the revelation of Chiquita about the
instances of ongoing belittling in the maternal lineage of adult males. I feel
badddd about that. If I should ever dare to do that to the fine man who's
my son, I feel confident he'd put me on a longgg time-out. . .certainly until
I made an amends (if I could even find him after such verbal abuse) that convinced him I'd come to my senses and would never do it again.
But I can't even envision a time so bad that I'd want to have him bear the emotional scars of my insults.

Dontcha sometimes wonder why some people breed?

IMHO, verbal abuse can leave nastier scars than physical abuse.

 

[Brini]

I was looking over the Shirley P. interview and am curious...many people, myself included, have assigned some connection between Casey's behavior and her upbringing...Cindy and George's behavior. My question is, what are your thought's on any connection between Cindy's behavior and Shirley ? I realize we don't have a lot of information about Shirley and Cindy's childhood, but given what we do know about Cindy, what would be the likely relationship be like ? Just looking for some thoughts on this...hope it's not too OT.

Well, CA's brother Rick seems a together enough guy.. as far as I know. He seems to have his head on straighter than CA (which, granted, wouldn't take much).

CA is, BTW, the only girl, and the youngest child of Shirley P.

 

[Brini]

Yes, I too didn't want to offend anyone w/ my previous post...SP is obviously a very sweet lady. I do think that there must be some reason for Cindy's behavior, not that it's anyone's fault, but sometimes enmeshment CAN look like love. My Grandmother was a wonderful woman, but there was a lot of enmeshment going on, there were certain members of the family that could do no wrong and she would excuse their behavior on a consistent basis. Now, she was nothing like Cindy, but there were certain characteristics, I didn't recognize then, that match up...looking back on it.

Enmeshment = devouring. It's often callex, "smother love."

 

[Brini]

:clap::clap::clap: Good post. Good info....
(I like that you are not analyzing her directly - JMO

Thanks, honey!

But, you KNOW I'm gonna keep analyzing KC. :blowkiss::blowkiss:;-)

But, seriously, I think Verite is referencing Erickson. I happen to admire Erickson.

Erickson opined that during different stages of development, the person has a dicotamy to resolve, starting at birth.

For instance, I have noticed that anorexics are often stuck at the Shame v. Productivity stage (age three to five?)

I'm explaining this badly, and prolly screwing it up. I haven't read Erickson since nursing school.

 

[Brini]

Hello WS

Their coldness was not a defense and no court cared where it came from. (Thank you Brini: snip respect)

That is interesting. In case you can't tell...this is the first case I ever followed. I don't know what the court sees as insanity. I should have just posted that instead of babbling on earlier.:crazy:

What does the court see as insanity? I have had in-patient treatment for depression and I understand there is a difference between insanity and mental illness-or so I think. I'll take that information to be corrected...

With mental illness and abuse in my own family I do wonder where that line is crossed-is my family insane or mentally ill? I guess if I understood the difference I could make that distinction.

As far as courts or anything legal...to be described as insane or mentally ill would they have to have a diagnosis from the DSM? (The book that has the descriptions of mental disorders) Is that book how we know what is "crazy" and "not"?

I also remember that I was asked if I thought I was a danger to myself or others and only if you answer yes then they can keep you. Maybe this is what is considered along with a diagnosis later to give a professional stamp that says: "insane"?

Thanks

...jmo

"Insane" is a legal term that has nothing to do with psych. It only means that one was unable to understand that what one did was wrong.

So, Andrea Yates was insane because she was hallucinating and delusional, and thought she was sending her children to heaven.

She was also looney as a tune. But, that is a totally separate issue.

:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[Brini]

Wonder what the final word will be on KC's diagnosis from a Forensic Psychologist/Psychiatrist? Guess we won't hear it until trial.

I can make three guesses, and would bet that she was dxed at least two of them.

I won't bore the list be repeating those three dxs.

 

[jeepgirlva]

I am totally giving away my age here, but I grew up in a time when the nuns had us diagramming sentences[/i] ( so we could form a sentence) & write outlines to create papers( so they had some form & flow) . . .My 3 kids ages 19-26, in Private schools & college, to this day write papers I'm aghast they can even turn in. But with the computer /video/cell phone/ electronic communication age, I think the 20-30 age group has become more isolated as individuals, less socialized, and not only do they seem to write & speak in code-ease, but even think that way at times. ( and my kids are on the honor roll) Sorry, this is a lot of words to try and say that my perception is, that the young folk today seem to be ?disconnected from their peers, in ways my generation was not. Not sure if that makes any sense (speaking of trying to communicate) And i really see it with this group of younguns'

My daughter and her friends will text each other when they are sitting in the car next to each other.

 

[Brini]

Ugh, I wasn't on last night (was off making graphics) so I'm way behind- I haven't seen the entire conversation regarding this so just tell me to shut up if I'm understanding the conversation wrong, OK?! LOL

I come from a personality disordered home as well and wonder much about Cindy's past, her childhood. A "Cindy" doesn't just happen, IMO

All her fake sweetness with the bite in the middle... the smile never leaving her face so nobody but the intended victim knows that it was what it was. arrggh!

Ever notice how CA's face goes all pointy when she is angry? Her nose almost twitches. She looks like an animal that is about to bite.

 

[MAMABEAR]

My daughter and her friends will text each other when they are sitting in the car next to each other.

LOL So do me and my G/D----same room.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Well, CA's brother Rick seems a together enough guy.. as far as I know. He seems to have his head on straighter than CA (which, granted, wouldn't take much).

CA is, BTW, the only girl, and the youngest child of Shirley P.

Thanks for the input...I did think briefly about Cindy being the only girl and wondered if that might have caused more of the "protectiveness" from her mother. I surely don't want to come across as pointing any fingers. I do rack my brain trying to find explanations for unexplained behavior and this case has provided more than enough of that for me.