Casey's Diary Entry for June 21st & Missing Pages #1

[lin]

Okay... a couple of examples (for which I'll have to go OT) -

We have seen the narrative of a report that includes some selected titbits from AD's testimony - but where is her witness statement?

We have a photo of one page from a book that appears to be a journal, but where is the request for forensic/handwriting analysis and the results of that?

A witness statement from DC has been released that seems to fuel the speculation that someone from the defence or A family camps had some inside info. on where Caylee's remains were, but where is Mr H's statement? DC's phone records? the psychic's statement? The full video that Mr H took? Why has this particular witness statement been released so soon after it was taken, when we still haven't seen statements/forensic reports etc that are well overdue?

1. What we have seen doesn't necessarily equate what the defense has seen. My understanding is that the defense has 1100 pages we don't have yet. JB has made specific requests for specific discovery and when so ordered, the state has no choice but to release it.

2. According to an article in People, link already posted in this thread, LE says they don't know the date of the journal entry and are conducting tests. They could have said 'no comment' and let it hang out there as an '08 thing.

3. Wasn't the DC interview something JB specifically requested? If so, state had no choice but to provide and judge ordered it released to the public. I don't think we can blame the state with that one.

Like you seem to, I also wish we could just have all of LE's files handed to us for our perusal and discussion. However, I do understand that's not how things work. I'm glad we get what we get, frankly.

 

[Devon]

(bold above by me)

Excellent! Excellent!! Excellent!!!

This is exactly the sort of approach to data we need to see more of.

Not what fits our preconceptions or wishes, but what plausible alternatives exist.

All of them. Whether it helps our favorite theories or not.

I think we get much closer to the truth much more quickly when we do this.

I couldn't agree more - but sadly it seems that 'the truth' has already been discovered and disseminated through the media and the 'illustrious' NG et al!

 

[lin]

KC is charged with the premeditated and intentional murder of her child. This dairy entry, if from 2008, would be a HUGE piece of evidence for the purpose of showing intent. I would have thought that the journal would have been sent off for the required testing and analysis post haste! Are we to believe that 2 months after it was taken into evidence, there is still no answer as to when this page was written?

Do you have any evidence to show this is not plausible? Otherwise, yes, I think that's what we're supposed to believe. Such testing may not be so common they'd have experts on hand or on speed dial. It may also be something that takes a lot of time, depending on the method used. I don't know what their resources are to test the material. It could also be they have preliminary results but then determined it necessary to confirm those results a 2nd or even 3rd or 4th time to make sure it was done correctly and gave an accurate result.

Also, please remember, at around this time they collected quite a bit of evidence to examine and test, including Caylee's remains. This one page may not have been the priority with them that it seems to be with you.

 

[fortytwo]

I thought the hairbrush incident involved FBI? And I don't recall her qualifying the submission. Do you remember any more about this so I can try to look it up? TIA

Unfortunately I don't. Some of this stuff seems to get filed in my mind in nice little file drawers that I can walk right up too, and pull out.

Other times (far too often, sad to say) it seems to end up as Post-It notes stuck randomly on the walls of a well designed maze. If I happen to go by it I'll see it, but otherwise all I know is it's "over there somewhere."

 

[Devon]

1. What we have seen doesn't necessarily equate what the defense has seen. My understanding is that the defense has 1100 pages we don't have yet. JB has made specific requests for specific discovery and when so ordered, the state has no choice but to release it.

2. According to an article in People, link already posted in this thread, LE says they don't know the date of the journal entry and are conducting tests. They could have said 'no comment' and let it hang out there as an '08 thing.

3. Wasn't the DC interview something JB specifically requested? If so, state had no choice but to provide and judge ordered it released to the public. I don't think we can blame the state with that one.

Like you seem to, I also wish we could just have all of LE's files handed to us for our perusal and discussion. However, I do understand that's not how things work. I'm glad we get what we get, frankly.

Discovery is supposed to be turned over to the other side in a timely fashion and as a matter of course. JB should not have to be requesting anything, he should be getting it as it is produced.

As for the DC interview, I have not seen any evidence that JB asked for this, and the judge did not order it be released, he just ruled on whether there was any privileged information in it that should not be released to the public.

I also find it very hard to believe that such a potentially incriminating piece of evidence as the diary entry was not sent for immediate analysis. Does it really take 2 months to get results?

 

[lin]

You may be right, Mac. It certainly seems like Casey to lose interest in things.

I'm wondering if we should all do an exercise to put this in perspective. Here's our assignment. Go back and read the entry again and instead of the murder being the big life changing event, insert in your mind that she's talking about losing her virginity.

Everyone report back when you're done.

Also, one more thing. These pics are from the Dec 11th search warrant. No where in the property forms does it list this diary/book/notebook. If they didn't take it from the home, it probably didn't have any value as evidence. They probably just photographed it to document it's existance.
Now...off to do your homework!

(emphasis added)

In case you missed it, People is reporting that it is being tested.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20260231,00.html

 

[lin]

Unfortunately I don't. Some of this stuff seems to get filed in my mind in nice little file drawers that I can walk right up too, and pull out.

Other times (far too often, sad to say) it seems to end up as Post-It notes stuck randomly on the walls of a well designed maze. If I happen to go by it I'll see it, but otherwise all I know is it's "over there somewhere."

Here's what I found:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18146218/detail.html

And this that supports your memory:

"More details to come as we continue to pour through these documents. But meantime, Cindy Anthony is speaking out on allegations she purposely gave investigators mom Casey's hairbrush instead of Caylee's. Cindy Anthony admits she did not go around the house collecting all the relevant hairbrushes, but says it was not deception. She says she told cops point blank she was handing over a hairbrush used by both Casey and Caylee because she could not find a hairbrush only used by Caylee in the little girl's bedroom. And it looks like no one will be forced to keep quiet as the murder trial approaches. A judge has shut down a request by the defense for a gag order. (From Stacey Newman, Nancy Grace Producer)"

http://m.cnn.com/cnn/ne/crime/detail/206260/full

Now for my opinion:

Given the only source of that qualifier, I can't give it any weight at all. I didn't see that attributed to any LE source, only CA. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the FBI would have been investigating the issue if she had been up front about what she was giving them. But maybe I'm missing something. (I mean other than any positive thought toward CA.)

 

[Devon]

Also, please remember, at around this time they collected quite a bit of evidence to examine and test, including Caylee's remains. This one page may not have been the priority with them that it seems to be with you.

This diary entry is certainly not a priority with me, but the state has charged KC with premeditated murder and considering that they appear to have little or no clear evidence of intent (that cannot be reasonably explained away), I think this entry is potentially the biggest 'bombshell' they could have found. It certainly ranks higher than the duct tape evidence IMO, because unless they can show when and why the tape was applied, it will do little to prove intentional murder whereas this diary entry, if proved to have been written just days after Caylee died, would be totally damning! Don't you think it would be a priority to find out when it was written?

 

[lin]

Discovery is supposed to be turned over to the other side in a timely fashion and as a matter of course. JB should not have to be requesting anything, he should be getting it as it is produced.

As for the DC interview, I have not seen any evidence that JB asked for this, and the judge did not order it be released, he just ruled on whether there was any privileged information in it that should not be released to the public.

I also find it very hard to believe that such a potentially incriminating piece of evidence as the diary entry was not sent for immediate analysis. Does it really take 2 months to get results?

I'll agree to disagree with you on this because it seems neither of us knows how long testing takes, especially with the likelihood of confirmation tests, 2nd and 3rd opinions knowing the opposition the defense will try to put up, if the results indicated 2008.

I'll concede the point about JB asking because it's not important enough to me to look it up. I don't understand the practical difference between my characterization of the court's role as 'ordering release' and your qualifying the court's role as ruling on privilege.

I agree about timely production of discovery as a matter of course. Where I think the disconnect may arise is in JB's expectations or definition of "timely" compared to what the state is actually able to accomplish, at least in some instances. Much smoke and mirrors from the defense, imo, and this is but one consistent example of the fog they try to create.

 

[fortytwo]

Here's what I found:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18146218/detail.html

And this that supports your memory:

"More details to come as we continue to pour through these documents. But meantime, Cindy Anthony is speaking out on allegations she purposely gave investigators mom Casey's hairbrush instead of Caylee's. Cindy Anthony admits she did not go around the house collecting all the relevant hairbrushes, but says it was not deception. She says she told cops point blank she was handing over a hairbrush used by both Casey and Caylee because she could not find a hairbrush only used by Caylee in the little girl's bedroom. And it looks like no one will be forced to keep quiet as the murder trial approaches. A judge has shut down a request by the defense for a gag order. (From Stacey Newman, Nancy Grace Producer)"

http://m.cnn.com/cnn/ne/crime/detail/206260/full

Now for my opinion:

Given the only source of that qualifier, I can't give it any weight at all. I didn't see that attributed to any LE source, only CA. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the FBI would have been investigating the issue if she had been up front about what she was giving them. But maybe I'm missing something. (I mean other than any positive thought toward CA.)

Nope. That's not it.

For one thing, I'd give no credence whatsoever to any unsupported statement made by CA. And I've been pretty wary of WFTV since the Second Knife debacle. I'd feel better about that if it wasn't still on their website.

But more importantly my recollection seems to be of a statement made by Melich.

Many apologies. I'll try to track it down, since I'm awfully certain that I saw it somewhere, but I just don't have a clue where to start right now. I just recall it capturing my attention since so much had been made of the hairbrush episode.

When you start subtracting for the general distaste for CA's personality there aren't all that many established things to call her on as being an active accessory after the fact.

 

[lin]

This diary entry is certainly not a priority with me, but the state has charged KC with premeditated murder and considering that they appear to have little or no clear evidence of intent (that cannot be reasonably explained away), I think this entry is potentially the biggest 'bombshell' they could have found. It certainly ranks higher than the duct tape evidence IMO, because unless they can show when and why the tape was applied, it will do little to prove intentional murder whereas this diary entry, if proved to have been written just days after Caylee died, would be totally damning! Don't you think it would be a priority to find out when it was written?

I don't know what all else they have to show premeditation. I know that was charged long before this journal entry appears to have been found so assume they were able to convince Grand Jury without it. It really may not be the bombshell we here think it is, when compared with other things we haven't seen but they have.

I also have no way of knowing whether or not they made this testing a priority and so far, I haven't seen any evidence they didn't. As I've repeatedly suggested, it's highly plausible imo that if the analysis showed an '08 writing, they would have that retested multiple times. They know the size of the guns on the defense side and will be very sure the results are accurate, to the best of their ability. So however long it would normally take to test, which as far as I know could be anywhere from a few hours to a few months, I think we should multiply by at least 5. Transfer to expert, analysis, return, examine results, return to expert1 for confirmation tests, time for analysis to be done again, return, examine results, locate another expert, transfer, analysis, return, examine results, return to expert2 for confirmation, time for analysis to be repeated, return, examine results, locate another expert, and so on and so forth.

I would think at the least, if it is confirmed to be from '08 through dating the ink, there would then have to be multiple handwriting experts to confirm it is her writing, and maybe lots of other tests I couldn't imagine with my limited knowledge of this type of thing.

 

[lin]

Nope. That's not it.

For one thing, I'd give no credence whatsoever to any unsupported statement made by CA. And I've been pretty wary of WFTV since the Second Knife debacle. I'd feel better about that if it wasn't still on their website.

But more importantly my recollection seems to be of a statement made by Melich.

Many apologies. I'll try to track it down, since I'm awfully certain that I saw it somewhere, but I just don't have a clue where to start right now. I just recall it capturing my attention since so much had been made of the hairbrush episode.

When you start subtracting for the general distaste for CA's personality there aren't all that many established things to call her on as being an active accessory after the fact.

No worries and no need to look it up. I may have confused the FBI investigating with it being them collecting the evidence. It's just not that important for you to go to the trouble. I refreshed my own memory and I'm happy with that. Thanks though, for offering. Very kind.

How on earth are you able to subtract the distaste for CA? It's so prevalent in my mind, it's just so automatic, it's kind of like pancreatic function. Not something I fixate on but it's always there. But in more direct response to your comment, I guess that would depend on what one would consider being an accessory or what constitutes obstruction. So I'll agree to disagree there because our opinions apparently differ and we're going to get in o/t trouble if we continue! Can't risk having a fellow Dougglas Addams fan chastised due to my own bad behavior.

All that being said, I'll leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzSG0RHKhzk&feature=channel_page

Check it out at about 3:45 when CA is told she's hurting the investigation with her lying ways. This segment starts out with her trying very hard to throw JG under the KC bus.

 

[Macushla]

(emphasis added)

In case you missed it, People is reporting that it is being tested.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20260231,00.html

Actually, Lin the article does not say it is being tested. the article says:

"Sources within the police department tell PEOPLE that they have not yet authenticated when the diaries were written. "The investigation is continuing and there are ways to tell when this was written," says a police source. "At this point, we can't definitively say when this entry was written."

When asked whether the entry could have been from 2003, the source responded, "That's entirely possible. No one should jump to any conclusions yet."

Nowhere does it say the journal IS being tested. the sources state there ARE ways to tell when it was written. They are still trying to authenticate - I take that to mean they are still trying to determine WHO wrote the diary. Since People magazine also got it wrong about how many knives were involved in this case, I would not put a lot of faith in their 'sources'.

I will graciously bow to a differing opinion if and when we see anything that states the journal was actually taken into evidence.

 

[Whisperer]

This diary entry is certainly not a priority with me, but the state has charged KC with premeditated murder and considering that they appear to have little or no clear evidence of intent (that cannot be reasonably explained away), I think this entry is potentially the biggest 'bombshell' they could have found.

It certainly ranks higher than the duct tape evidence IMO, because unless they can show when and why the tape was applied, it will do little to prove intentional murder whereas this diary entry, if proved to have been written just days after Caylee died, would be totally damning! Don't you think it would be a priority to find out when it was written?

_______________________

Ranks higher than the duct tape????

Duct tape wrapped around a child's head and the body disposed in a garbage bag doesn't show intent? Did she accidentally place the tape around her head and place her in a garbage bag? Uh..um..if you could give me a good and reasonable answer for her actions regarding this, I would be stunned.

Regarding the writing, I think it is old....if it were current and usable, I think the state would pass on it. It is vague and dramatic and reveals nothing but her happiness. She has already demonstrated her happiness in photographs taken on the 20th of June, thus journal not important.

 

[Steely Dan]

I just happened to be going through some photos and found the diary on the upper edge of this pic below. This gives us an idea of how many pages were left. Looks like quite a few. I would imagine that she could have ripped 10 pages out and it wouldn't looked like any were missing.

If there was a complete side view we could see if the tops of the letters of her name written on the side were missing. That would probably show if pages were torn out or not.

I'm not a CA fan, so don't misunderstand what I'm about to say, please.

I think she gets a pass on the hairbrush. I seem to remember that at the time she went to get it she made it clear to Det. Melich that it had not been used only by Caylee, and he told her that was okay.

The toothbrush doesn't really catch my attention either. For one thing, getting the relevant DNA was going to happen one way or another, so of what other use could it be as evidence? Why hide it? For another, if someone didn't want it to be found there are much easier and more permanent ways to lose it than sticking it in nested coolers. Unless they wanted to get it back later?

Mostly though, it occurred to me that the only time I've ever used a folding toothbrush was when I was camping or backpacking. Finding one left in a couple of coolers seemed not too much of a reach.

I thought the hairbrush incident involved FBI? And I don't recall her qualifying the submission. Do you remember any more about this so I can try to look it up? TIA

CA interview with media about the hairbrush.

"Sources within the police department tell PEOPLE that they have not yet authenticated when the diaries were written. "The investigation is continuing and there are ways to tell when this was written," says a police source. "At this point, we can't definitively say when this entry was written."

When asked whether the entry could have been from 2003, the source responded, "That's entirely possible. No one should jump to any conclusions yet."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20260231,00.html

That's true, I believe. I mentioned some things earlier in this thread that they could use to date it and if they do a lot of things it can take some time to do. They might also be stalling to keep the defense from getting info right away. JMO

I think it was the same day that HLN started the story with a little blip like "Why did this Florida mother wait 31 days to report her daughter missing?" and showed the neglect arraignment. They hadn't even gotten all the juicy details about the fake nanny/life out yet and I was fascinated.

How could anyone not be hooked by that alone.

 

[lin]

Actually, Lin the article does not say it is being tested. the article says:

"Sources within the police department tell PEOPLE that they have not yet authenticated when the diaries were written. "The investigation is continuing and there are ways to tell when this was written," says a police source. "At this point, we can't definitively say when this entry was written."

When asked whether the entry could have been from 2003, the source responded, "That's entirely possible. No one should jump to any conclusions yet."

Nowhere does it say the journal IS being tested. the sources state there ARE ways to tell when it was written. They are still trying to authenticate - I take that to mean they are still trying to determine WHO wrote the diary. Since People magazine also got it wrong about how many knives were involved in this case, I would not put a lot of faith in their 'sources'.

I will graciously bow to a differing opinion if and when we see anything that states the journal was actually taken into evidence.

I stand corrected. No where is the word "test" however, imo, it appears implicit.

 

[bailee]

museums send documents out to labs to test for ink types and paper dates all the time. So I am sure it will be done or has been done.

 

[PaulaF513]

Unfortunately I don't. Some of this stuff seems to get filed in my mind in nice little file drawers that I can walk right up too, and pull out.

Other times (far too often, sad to say) it seems to end up as Post-It notes stuck randomly on the walls of a well designed maze. If I happen to go by it I'll see it, but otherwise all I know is it's "over there somewhere."

I distinctly remember a TV interview on the Anthony's lawn with Cindy. I ca't remember the reporter who asked her about the hairbrush incident. She told the reporter about the detectives asking for Caylee's hairbrush. She said she went into Casey's bathroom and found the one she gave them and told them that it was also used by Casey. She also mentioned having a comb and barretes of Caylee's, but there was no hair on any of them. They told her that was no problem because they already had samples of Casey's hair and could differentiate between hers and Caylee's. The toothbrush was of course exclusively Caylee's.

There would be no reason on earth, imho, for Cindy to try to deceive the detectives about a hairbrush. If I recall correctly, a DNA test had already been performed on Caylee when JG requested the paternity test. Cindy was aware of that having been done.

People have intimated that a toothbrush was hidden in a toolbox in the garage. Toothbrushes are frequently used for cleaning purposes in the house and car by many of us, so that bears no incrimination to me.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that screams that Casey did cause Caylee's death. I admit that I was one of those in the beginning that really thought she had given the baby to someone for adoption, to spite her mother. I am so sad that I was so wrong. But I still do not see anything that indicates the Anthonys tried to coverup for Casey. I do see parents, especially a mother, who flew in the face of all logic to find an alternative to her daughter being a murderer. I truly believe I would have done the same, God forbid I ever found myself in that tragic situation.

 

[ecs5298]

Actually, Lin the article does not say it is being tested. the article says:

"Sources within the police department tell PEOPLE that they have not yet authenticated when the diaries were written. "The investigation is continuing and there are ways to tell when this was written," says a police source. "At this point, we can't definitively say when this entry was written."

When asked whether the entry could have been from 2003, the source responded, "That's entirely possible. No one should jump to any conclusions yet."

Nowhere does it say the journal IS being tested. the sources state there ARE ways to tell when it was written. They are still trying to authenticate - I take that to mean they are still trying to determine WHO wrote the diary. Since People magazine also got it wrong about how many knives were involved in this case, I would not put a lot of faith in their 'sources'.

I will graciously bow to a differing opinion if and when we see anything that states the journal was actually taken into evidence.

Excellent point, Mac! You hit the nail right on the head! I couldn't agree with you more.!

 

[JaneInOz]

Im a little lost are you talking about upper left corner ? with her name written on the side (really norty to do that btw LOL)

Thats not a Diary ? Thats a year book of some sort. Its not the one that the photographed written entry was found in anyway..


ETA I just realised that you meant the thing sitting on top of the year book :doh:

But I still don't think that is THE Diary that she wrote in.... The colours are wrong

AS per here http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/18740442/detail.html Photo 13

Solid piece of blue then a line of white then red then blue going around the corner

And here the theme is more tropical http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3330294&postcount=101

But this photo that you have posted is more floral

IMO its not the same diary / book / journal

I just happened to be going through some photos and found the diary on the upper edge of this pic below. This gives us an idea of how many pages were left. Looks like quite a few. I would imagine that she could have ripped 10 pages out and it wouldn't looked like any were missing.