Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[MyLeftFoot]

From reading her book it's quite clear she talked to a lot of sources. Some of those sources were just average punters like us who had a theory. In her book she mentions Noel Coward, The Phibenator, as well as someone who has the exact same theory as My Left Foot. She got the name from someone, it could have been an off the record cop or someone from a forum or blog.

I recall Trevor Dunen described Paris King in a similar manner. Could be PK.

No.1 I have A theory....one of three possible theories

No.2 I read DM's book...never saw a similar theory

At the time of publishing, I had no real interest in the case at all. I didn't even know someone had written a book until 2011.

 

[Bartholemeus]

There was a severe shortage of taxis in some areas. Yes, fake plate-less taxis existed. Taxis in Perth were a mass produced car with a light on the top at the time. Panel beating shops would have the lights etc. I don't believe there would be any tracking of taxi assets such as roof top lights. It was easy to build a fake taxi. They were all plain white.

Its not like the UK where you can only hale a proprietary made Hackney London cab off the street.

30 minute wait times in some areas. Perth has a number plate system of regulation. It has made taxis expensive. Essentially flag fall is to pay for the number plate. If you can get a fare without a taxi plate your making good money. In Claremont they would drive around the block picking up punters coming out the precinct.

I'm not sure how you could possibly know this unless you lived in the area for an extended period? Any chance you can clarify?

 

[Bartholemeus]

I must read the book again. Because I don't recall anything in the book about the name Noel Coward.

It's on Page 88.

If Judo man did another martial art and not Judo as stated by people here. He did Jiu Jitsu, Zen Do Kai? Aikido? Why is he called Judo Man? Is it his initials? He was a club security guard? His parents wealthy, does he work? University qualifications?
Judo is a close quarter combat discipline.

I always had the impression he did judo. Not sure why, just an inkling I get. If I had to pin it down I'd say it's because people call him Judoman.

 

[crabstick]

Interesting the book is called "The Devils Garden"

On this thread, or similar topic on this forum. Someone said he did not do judo. They said, they just call him Judo Man

Just did a search of Debi Marshalls book online. No mention of Noel Coward.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...VyBKUCh05XACO#v=onepage&q=Noel Coward&f=false

I gave up looking for the book in my library after 20 minutes. Ill look later. Im not buying it again. The digital price is $13. If you could take a picture of the page 88 with you phone, that would be appreciated Bartholemeus.

It's on Page 88.

I always had the impression he did judo. Not sure why, just an inkling I get. If I had to pin it down I'd say it's because people call him Judoman.

If in deed you were told, that's blatant a lie that's why. Police are under heavy non-disclosure agreements. Its an investigation.

Then why did you tell me police more or less told you the CSK is a guy you know whog has olive skin and was trawling bars all over Perth by himself to pick up women?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Page 108 of DM's book:

In 1995 a young woman got into a taxi in Claremont and the driver drove her to the other side of the railway line to the golf course. Forcibly stripped of her clothes, she managed to escape, banging on the door of a nearby house and screaming for the couple who lived there to let her in. Completely traumatised, it took an hour for her to finally splutter out what had happened.


Add that to the potential precursor list.

 

[crabstick]

Explain to me why police have gone extraordinary lengths to gain DNA. Even from POIs. They are still questioning and collecting DNA. Why?

Lets just say police leaks were happening in the beginning of the operation. Hence the heavy non-disclosure agreements now.

I can't see how you would know this? Do you care to explain?

Ill check it out because it actually just sounded like a simple explanation to me. If you could take a pic of page 88 that would be great.

They were being sarcastic. Let's nip this in the bud once and for all; he does Judo. That is why we call him Judoman rather than Karate man, kung-fu man or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu man.

Yep. Lot's of lying going on in this thread.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Explain to me why police have gone extraordinary lengths to gain DNA. Even from POIs. They are still questioning and collecting DNA. Why?

Just because they have collected DNA doesn't mean they have the killer's DNA. They would be most likely collecting it in case technology improvements provide them with a DNA reading. So it turns out you don't know if they have DNA or not.

Now you claim they are still collecting DNA. Most likely true, but again, how could you possibly know this?

 

[crabstick]

The coma drug was found at the sites. It has a multitude of uses and was being sold in England legally as the coma drug GBL. It would explain why the girls felt they were tired and peeled off from their friends. The drug changes their behaviour as has happened with so many other women. As was explained prior.

Someone only need by them a drink and dose it. I do believe from witnesses in the area this was rife at the time. So the cops may watch careful for who bought them drinks.

MM looks like hospitality industry

https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=GBL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone

GHB has biphasic effects, a euphoric effect at low doses (the reason for the term liquid ecstasy), and a sedative effect[16] at higher doses. As a result of this sedation it can cause unconsciousness.[17] When combined with alcohol the increased sedation and risk of vomiting results in a high risk of fatality.

Post #90: As were the suspects drugged/spiked with the coma drug in drinks and abducted.

The cops have been going door to door for DNA testing as explained in the above post.

Post #105: The men in black are still DNA testing. This is only just starting really. They are dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

The cops are going through the process of elimination. They have to square it away before they bring down the hammer. It will take about this much longer. As explained prior.

Post #109: In a year or so it will be in court.

AS ALREADY EXPLAINED above mentioned post!

Post #518 In Claremont they would drive around the block picking up punters coming out the precinct.
Post #522: Oh, they have DNA. They have DNA.

I really don't understand how you cant understand what your asking. To prove the drug spiking I would have to have the drink my hand so that's a no brainer but there was remnants of the coma drug in Deb Marshalls book you seems to know back to front. How can you miss that?
Ive post reference to the coma drug prior. Drug spiking was rife in the period. Women waking up not knowing what happened, nor where they were.
The GBL makes them far more compliant to to any request. GBL is not freely available in WA. It is illegal. Its used in panel beating.

Maybe you would like to post the picture of the drug page too? You missed that one.

So I have answered your questions once again. But you have walked from your claims. Its the same game over and over.

Its like you havent even read the posts prior. Are you on a stimulant? It reads like it.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Page 88 of The Devil's Garden;

 

[crabstick]

Where does it say Noel Coward? Your the one waving the hand of, "wheres the proof" the informant is was Noel, as you say.

Who was the university professor?

That is interesting though, the man with the olive skin. Was he the taxi driver? How old was he?

I say its a group. And Im told Im an idiot, low an behold, no page 88 but, its speculation in the book, of a group.

Low and behold, one is in the prostitution game, and the drug game by the looks.

We have a backyard full of dodgy cars, a fire but there is no fake taxi.

Page 88 of The Devil's Garden;

View attachment 81783

 

[crabstick]

Someone asked the question. Someone met Sarah at the phone box. Gone within minutes of calling a taxi arriving. Someone, well MM appears to have turned up, without a face to the camera at any time; and Jane disappears within minutes. Ciara last seen in front a white station wagon?
It appears someone gets them before any taxi arrives right at the opportune moment. The fake taxi? Is MM the fake taxi driver?

SARAH: 2.06am from a phone box near the corner of Stirling Highway and Stirling Road. She was not there when the taxi arrived at 2.14am
JANE: 00.04am after a Saturday night out with friends. She was last seen standing outside Club Bay View
CIARA: was last seen outside a nearby computer shop on Stirling Highway at 00.15am
All after midnight
The way the girls left their friends it was like nothing was pre-organised. They left the clubs with friends?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...a-glennons-death/story-fnhocxo3-1227173673919

<modsnip>

 

[Bartholemeus]

1. Which other non-canonical Perth crime do you think was most likely to have been committed by the CSK? Julie Cutler, cemetery rape, attempted abduction on Princess Rd, bashing behind CBV, or something else? I find it highly unlikely that CSK did not commit an earlier crime in Perth.

There's also this one;

Page 108 of DM's book:

In 1995 a young woman got into a taxi in Claremont and the driver drove her to the other side of the railway line to the golf course. Forcibly stripped of her clothes, she managed to escape, banging on the door of a nearby house and screaming for the couple who lived there to let her in. Completely traumatised, it took an hour for her to finally splutter out what had happened.

I'm not convinced about the Bay View Tce taxi incident but this one is likely to be true. It was researched by Bret Christian from the Post and was referenced in DM's book.

If the CSK is a taxi driver then you'd have to think this would be a high chance. If the incident on Bay View Tce did in fact happen then there's either 2 dodgy taxi drivers, or could be the same bloke. Either way, on one instance a taxi driver had an accomplice.

 

[Sutton]

Thanks to the mod for re-opening the thread.

Does anyone out there know where Sarah Spiers worked? She is usually described as a secretary or a legal secretary. I am interested in who her employer was.

I have looked and looked, but have only seen one comment suggesting BSD Consulting. I would appreciate any memories or articles anyone has.

I have a "reward" for the entire thread if anyone can help [emoji8]

 

[Bartholemeus]

The only time I have ever seen someone mention her work place is here:

http://blogs.watoday.com.au/yoursay/2008/08/claremont_killi.html?page=fullpage#comments

BSD Consulting which is now Cardno BSD. I believe that's the same place you got your info from.

Do we know if Judoman worked there?

 

[Sutton]

The only time I have ever seen someone mention her work place is here:

http://blogs.watoday.com.au/yoursay/2008/08/claremont_killi.html?page=fullpage#comments

BSD Consulting which is now Cardno BSD. I believe that's the same place you got your info from.

Do we know if Judoman worked there?

Thanks, I'm sure that is where my info originated. To my knowledge, Judo did not work there .

The CIA episode said Judo "worked closely" with SS. I work in business development. So I "work closely" with a couple of people who work for other companies.

Evidence that he did work there would be good, though.

 

[Sutton]

For the record, no one has posted or pm'd me any info about Sarah's employer. But thank you to everyone for trying.

In retrospect, it seems gruesome to offer these articles as a reward. I have seen them vaguely referenced 'as UK articles that revealed the manner of death', but have never seen the actual articles or even any quotes from the articles.

It's possible the articles contain errors.

April 4, 1997: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/STRIP...IPLE+KILLER+AFTER+MISSING+IRISH...-a061104395

April 5, 1997:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WE'LL...+Aussie+cops+vow+to+nab+`jumpy'...-a061104056

 

[Sutton]

Also, I want to post an observation enzeder pointed out to me a few pages back.

It has been asked how Judo ever made it onto Macro's radar. We speculated that someone turned him in or he displayed some of the predicted post offensive behavior. But there's another possibility that somehow I didn't comprehend.

The italicized text is the CIA transcript, and enzeder's message is paraphrased after that.

Macro conducted saturation undercover surveillance of the general Claremont area...This resulted in the identification of men who followed women along the street and a number of rogue taxi drivers. [Among those identified during this surveillance] are two men who can provide no alibis for the times the three victims went missing.

One was a known sexual pervert who had a semi-automatic rifle and ammunition concealed under the front seat of his car...Another of those still being investigated is a well-educated martial arts practitioner...

'...So, during this undercover surveillance two of the men, who were identified as following women along the street, could not provide alibis for the times the women went missing...Judoman is one of those men...'

If this reasoning holds up, Judo was following women on the street.

 

[Mel 1303]

For the record, no one has posted or pm'd me any info about Sarah's employer. But thank you to everyone for trying.

In retrospect, it seems gruesome to offer these articles as a reward. I have seen them vaguely referenced 'as UK articles that revealed the manner of death', but have never seen the actual articles or even any quotes from the articles.

It's possible the articles contain errors.

April 4, 1997: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/STRIP...IPLE+KILLER+AFTER+MISSING+IRISH...-a061104395

April 5, 1997:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WE'LL...+Aussie+cops+vow+to+nab+`jumpy'...-a061104056

Hi Sutton, I have been digging, but cant find any direct link between Judoman and BSD consulting, although he is in the same kind of industry.

 

[Bartholemeus]

For the record, no one has posted or pm'd me any info about Sarah's employer. But thank you to everyone for trying.

In retrospect, it seems gruesome to offer these articles as a reward. I have seen them vaguely referenced 'as UK articles that revealed the manner of death', but have never seen the actual articles or even any quotes from the articles.

It's possible the articles contain errors.

April 4, 1997: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/STRIP...IPLE+KILLER+AFTER+MISSING+IRISH...-a061104395

April 5, 1997:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WE'LL...+Aussie+cops+vow+to+nab+`jumpy'...-a061104056

I've seen these before and pretty confident they were discussed on BF thread but because of the innacuracies they were disregarded.

Noel Coward said he knew the girls had had their throats cut (in reality he was merely speculating). In DM's book she talks of interviewing a cop who confirms that there was evidence to suggest JR's throat was cut.

Police have stated a number of times, right up until at least the 2008 CIA episode, that they believe the girls were killed soon after, and close by to the abduction point. Unless the CSK had a house near by, I struggle to see the CSK doing this either in his car, or in a public place. There's not a lot of secluded places around Claremont (I guess we know the cemetery and Lake Claremont Golf Course were secluded enough for a rape though). But cutting someone's throat? There'd be a lot of blood. And then he'd have to get the girls into his car with blood pissing everywhere.

I initially thought strangulation but DM's book strongly suggest throats.

Throat

- In car unlikely - too much blood
- Could he have had a plastic lined boot? Maybe.
- Could have had a house close by

= Local kill unlikely unless has house close by

Strangle

- Could have done locally
- Could have done inside his car
- A cop told DM that there was evidence that strongly suggested throat cut. Cop might have been lying.

= Throat cut more likely based on what we know

Close By

- Would have had to have access to a house or business near by
- Could have been strangulation
- Outside chance used public location such as cemetery, golf course, Bold Hill. Lot of blood left over

Far Away

- Would have had to subdue the girls for the trip. Maybe a head blow? Maybe a judo move?
- Would have had higher chance of privacy and less mess in his car.
- Short trip to dump site meaning less risk with dead body
- Any mess like a *****tonne of blood would be less liekly to be discovered.




I lean towards the CSK disabling his victims locally then driving to somewhere within a few km's of the dump sites and doing his ritual and kill there.

He still had to transport the bodies and you'd assume they were quite bloody.

 

[JMC44]

That's interesting reasoning Sutton. I hadn't thought of that but it seems likely from the passage you pointed out that Judoman was initially investigated because of following cars.

I just don't know what to think - there are compelling reasons to suspect guilt of a number of suspects based on the information covered in this thread. I still wait for the day the top news article in The Age is the arrest of a suspect in the Claremont murders.