CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct 2012 - #10

[Shelby2]

I don't believe anyone has suggested dissection. LE confirmed "body not intact" which is entirely different than dissection. Many are alluding to the perp dismembering the body but that doesn't take a medical expert or anyone with specific knowledge. Think Zahra Baker. The step-mother in that case was barely qualified as literate, much less intelligent.

Warning: Graphic information​

Another thing that people don't appear to understand is that if the body was dismembered, it doesn't mean there would be a tremendous amount of blood evidence. If the dismemberment occurred several hours after death, the body would not "bleed" out due to the blood pooling, etc. A body doesn't bleed after death.

I am almost sure LE mentioned this. I will try to find a link.

 

[Madeleine74]

BlueIris,

Interesting thoughts, however LE investigators don't have x-ray vision to know if anything internal would be missing or not (assuming there was no open cavity for them to see). As for external indications of gender, obviously there would be no difference in breast development at that age. Thus there's only 1 area externally for them to make a distinction and we don't have information what exactly it was they confronted at the time.

We don't know what they know or knew or when.

 

[csziggy]

My impression is not that the perp was trying to "show off" or "openly display the body." That road is pitch black at night. He probably stopped and did the dump where he would not be seen, quickly, and not in a highly used area (like not a local green park with playground equipment and people walking/playing).

Dismembering implies wanting to cover it up or making detection more difficult or disposal easier. Or it could be part of someone's fantasy M.O. Any of it could be possible.

I think he did a dump 'n run without a lot of planning for that spot in particular. It was dark, easy, convenient, private. It appears no one saw a vehicle there since no one has reported seeing anything or anyone there during that 24 hr period from the time she went missing. She could have easily gone undetected for a few weeks or even a few months. He wouldn't know when she would be found.

That was the dump spot. There's nothing implying that's where he first took her.

I agree. One thing - in a rural location at night he would have been able to hear other vehicles coming from a good distance. At night here on my farm I can hear cars coming down the rural highway from miles away and tell when they are turning off onto the road where I live and that is a good half mile from my house. Before this area got so developed I could hear the traffic on the interstate nearly ten miles away and could hear when the plantation truck and trailer turned onto our road five miles south of the farm.

I think the main thing that made him select the spot to leave the body was that the fence across the wash leading to the culvert left a space that made it easy for him to duck underneath and carry a load. From the photo that has been posted here of the culvert and ditch in front of it, the weeds make me think that the body was not in the culvert originally.

I wonder if the body was left Tuesday night. I expect even though the road was only recently open locals would have been using it and the body seems to have been pretty visible from the road. Even if someone spotted it and was not sure of what it was, they probably would have reported it to authorities given the amount of publicity the disappearance of Jessica had gotten.

JMO.

 

[JaimeInLA]

There were 34 hours between the abduction and the first possible time that the backpack was left in a different neighborhood. There's no guarantee that she was murdered before her backpack was abandoned, although I'm of the opinion that it happened in that order.

We don't know what has been reported in terms of sighting or tips at the location where Jessica was found - no info has been released. We don't know whether she was murdered at that location or if her body was placed there at a later time - but within 36 hours of her disappearance. No info. has been released ... therefore we cannot assume that this was a "dump site", or the scene of the murder.

I agree. I think she was murdered within 8 hours of being abducted. By the time her mom got the message that she didn't show up at school and called the police. Because that is when the search began. At that point everyone in the Denver metro area was on the lookout for Jessica. Everyone was listening and looking at their neighbors. He couldn't take the risk. It is why, statistically, kidnapped children are almost always murdered shortly after being abducted.

 

[Gabby66]

Someone did mention that term, otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up.

Well, I assumed that, but I was wondering where it came from. Do you remember?

 

[JaimeInLA]

Police have only said that the body was "not intact". There is no information regarding why the body was not intact (deliberate mutilation, or animal activity). Talking heads have used more graphic and misleading terms - but there is no information to support the terms used by the talking heads in the media.

Well, to be clear, there is a lot of information to support dissection. But none of it is official, so we can't consider it fact. But the social media circles and comments on news articles are all buzzing about it. They all have people whose relatives work at the WPD and they claim to know inside information. All of this inside information talks about the degree to which she was dismembered. And it is all from different, various sources who claim to be in the know. That said, it is all unsubstantiated, not reported by police, and we can't verify it.

 

[Footwarrior]

I wonder if the body was left Wednesday night. I expect even though the road was only recently open locals would have been using it and the body seems to have been pretty visible from the road. Even if someone spotted it and was not sure of what it was, they probably would have reported it to authorities given the amount of publicity the disappearance of Jessica had gotten.

The body was discovered early wednesday afternoon. LE may have some ideas about how long it had been there, but nothing has been released to the public. Nor have they said anything about the exact position of the body or if it was covered.

 

[Gabby66]

BlueIris,

Interesting thoughts, however LE investigators don't have x-ray vision to know if anything internal would be missing or not (assuming there was no open cavity for them to see). As for external indications of gender, obviously there would be no difference in breast development at that age. Thus there's only 1 area externally for them to make a distinction and we don't have information what exactly it was they confronted at the time.

We don't know what they know or knew or when.

WARNING GRAPHIC: I can't imagine that if she was dismembered at or above her pelvis, he would have stitched her up. Therefore, I am assuming there WAS an open cavity. I would also assume that during the identifying process, they would have x-rayed the body to check for gender.

 

[GrainneDhu]

People keep mentioning dissecting. The sort of people I think of that would be familiar with that are doctors, college medical professors, high school science/biology teachers, taxidermists?, hunters, and students in the medical field.

Cooks.

 

[Madeleine74]

My opinion regarding that area where the body was found is my opinion, which is as valid or invalid as anyone else's opinion.

Perhaps the perp fantasized about every detail. Does every crime go off as planned with absolutely no change? We know the body was not "intact." It makes no sense to me that she was taken there immediately after abduction and that all crimes against her occurred in that exact spot. I don't believe that. I believe whatever was done before dumping, occurred elsewhere.

If information comes out that is contrary to that then my opinion will likewise change.

 

[nursebeeme]

the word "dissection" came from a media tweet after LE said "not intact"... I have no link I just witnessed it (there is however a post about it from when it first happened as people got a little mad about the change in wording that the media took liberties with.

 

[ColoGirl]

The cement buildings are the remains of the Leyden coal mine that shut down in the 1940s. The mine provided the coal that powered the Denver trolley system. The mine shafts have been sealed for decades. Over the years, the buildings have slowly decayed.

The county classified this area as a geologic hazard due to risk that underground mine tunnels would collapse. That is why it has remained undeveloped. It was used for grazing until Arvada bought it as open space a few years back.

Super interesting... that seems to make more sense to Google than Pattridge Park. I will have to check it out after things settle a bit.

A story from the Westword on Leyden, CO
http://www.westword.com/1996-10-03/news/down-in-the-hole/

 

[BlueIris]

BlueIris,

Interesting thoughts, however LE investigators don't have x-ray vision to know if anything internal would be missing or not (assuming there was no open cavity for them to see). As for external indications of gender, obviously there would be no difference in breast development at that age. Thus there's only 1 area externally for them to make a distinction and we don't have information what exactly it was they confronted at the time.

We don't know what they know or knew or when.

I'm just thinking of how a girl is laid out internally vs a boy. Short of a vaccum style device, wouldn't there be marks externally if it were dissected somehow?

What about med school flunkies? What about someone who dropped out of med school at some point?

Point being, this could be anybody, but I think police are being very clear in saying this could be your friend, colleague, spouse or relative. I think they think this is someone quite ordinary in the community who has gone very rogue and is existing just under the radar of detection at the moment. They seem to be urging people to consider that it could be anybody! I don't think we're looking for just anybody. I think they have a good idea of the type of occupation / skill set / training this guy has had based on whatever evidence they've found so far.

 

[NC Analyzer]

Well, to be clear, there is a lot of information to support dissection. But none of it is official, so we can't consider it fact. But the social media circles and comments on news articles are all buzzing about it. They all have people whose relatives work at the WPD and they claim to know inside information. All of this inside information talks about the degree to which she was dismembered. And it is all from different, various sources who claim to be in the know. That said, it is all unsubstantiated, not reported by police, and we can't verify it.

And just to make it clear...There is a HUGE difference between "dismembered" and "dissection".

 

[Madeleine74]

WARNING GRAPHIC: I can't imagine that if she was dismembered at or above her pelvis, he would have stitched her up. Therefore, I am assuming there WAS an open cavity. I would also assume that during the identifying process, they would have x-rayed the body to check for gender.

One cannot see a uterus and ovaries unless there is an opening that specifically shows these organs and recovery people know what they are looking for. During identification an M.E. would obviously determine gender and note what organs were there or not there. What the people who found and recovered the remains saw, we don't know. Where the disarticulation occurred, we don't know.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Attempting to drill down to the perp's possible thinking:

Backpack / water bottle evidence left in "Superior" = non-desolate, ~densely populated area and the perp's taunt to LE, him flaunting his "superior" ability?

Remains evidence left in area in Arvada = desolate, sparsely populated and somewhat abandoned area, the perp's "busy" or "work" time, or a staging area, or perhaps a next-piece of a larger puzzle to be discovered?

What was the perp feeling at those locations?

Dropping the backpack / water bottle in the populated area is perhaps a low to moderate risk as to time exposure and being 'caught in the act', a quick cheap thrill of 'possibly getting caught' but if caught, explainable as, "I found this back pack at such-and-such intersection and I thought it belonged to a kid who lives here / close by so I wanted to drop it off where it would be found by parents / kids." If he dropped that evidence over night then risk would be mostly low but still provide a minor 'thrill' and still send a message. I suspect the perp at that time had no other 'evidence' with him.

Dropping the body / remains evidence in the sparsely populated, unlit area (according to at least one interviewed resident in the general area) is none to low risk from arrival to exit but there was no need for a 'possibly getting caught' thrill as I suspect the 'thrill' at that location was derived simply from having what he had in his 'possession' and what he was doing, if anything, during that time.

Also, if there are more remains to be found, are those particular remains / locations part of a larger perceived 'puzzle' in the perp's mind?

Backpack/water bottle evidence drop = Very easy and quick to find.

Partial remains evidence drop = More difficult to find but close enough to a road to probably ensure it would be found sooner rather than later?

What else might be left and if there is anything left to find of the remains or of anything belonging to JR or the crime in general, how does it fit in with what has already been located and with what the perp wants to portray?

What/where is the next piece of the perp's puzzle? What pattern, shape might he be attempting to build/draw?

It seems there is triangulation at this point:
- Abduction Scene.
- Evidence Scene A.
- Evidence Scene B.
- ??

One interviewed profiler has commented his believes the perp might have been fantasizing this crime for "years". Does that mean it's years between when the perp commits his crimes or is this crime his first and there might be more to come, with less-than-years between, now that he's crossed that line from fantasy to reality?

Also, regarding the attached pic .. a possible match?

 

[BlueIris]

I'm just thinking of how a girl is laid out internally vs a boy. Short of a vaccum style device, wouldn't there be marks externally if it were dissected somehow?

What about med school flunkies? What about someone who dropped out of med school at some point?

Point being, this could be anybody, but I think police are being very clear in saying this could be your friend, colleague, spouse or relative. I think they think this is someone quite ordinary in the community who has gone very rogue and is existing just under the radar of detection at the moment. They seem to be urging people to consider that it could be anybody! I don't think we're looking for just anybody. I think they have a good idea of the type of occupation / skill set / training this guy has had based on whatever evidence they've found so far.

Sorry to quote myself...
If the remains had clothes on covering part of all of what they found, then that might also explain why they couldn't immediately say if the remains were male or female. If they couldn't see the genitals / breast area -- they wouldn't immediately know male or female. If the remains had a cover or clothing on, then they wouldn't touch / remove them for some time. They'd wait for the ME to come and do the forensic investigation at the scene, and likely wait til the remains were examined at the ME's office... so that way evidence on the clothes / cover etc could be examined and such...

 

[Gabby66]

One cannot see a uterus and ovaries unless there is an opening that specifically shows these organs and recovery people know what they are looking for. During identification an M.E. would obviously determine gender and note what organs were there or not there. What the people who found and recovered the remains saw, we don't know. Where the dis-articulation occurred, we don't know.

If she was dismembered (legs), and she was cut at the pelvis, one could EASILY find the uterus/ovaries.

 

[danzn16]

I don't believe anyone has suggested dissection. LE confirmed "body not intact" which is entirely different than dissection. Many are alluding to the perp dismembering the body but that doesn't take a medical expert or anyone with specific knowledge. Think Zahra Baker. The step-mother in that case was barely qualified as literate, much less intelligent.

Warning: Graphic information​

Another thing that people don't appear to understand is that if the body was dismembered, it doesn't mean there would be a tremendous amount of blood evidence. If the dismemberment occurred several hours after death, the body would not "bleed" out due to the blood pooling, etc. A body doesn't bleed after death.

I'm not so sure about this statement. Yes it's true if it was many hours later clotting would occur and it would be less of a mess. However there would still be bleeding. I'm a med student and we have to cut cadavers in anatomy lab and cadavers are specifically prepared to be less messy and they still bleed out somewhat. So I do think there would still be a lot of evidence left wherever this was done.

 

[Shelby2]

I don't believe anyone has suggested dissection. LE confirmed "body not intact" which is entirely different than dissection. Many are alluding to the perp dismembering the body but that doesn't take a medical expert or anyone with specific knowledge. Think Zahra Baker. The step-mother in that case was barely qualified as literate, much less intelligent.

Warning: Graphic information​

Another thing that people don't appear to understand is that if the body was dismembered, it doesn't mean there would be a tremendous amount of blood evidence. If the dismemberment occurred several hours after death, the body would not "bleed" out due to the blood pooling, etc. A body doesn't bleed after death.

See this post. I thought I heard it on some news station as well.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8456195&postcount=505"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct 2012 - #9[/ame]