Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #25

[SweetPeas56]

It is according to experts. A persons behavior after an event can indeed be considered evidence of guilt. Humans have patterns of behaviour and many clues can be gained from such patterns.

When interrogators interrogated Russell Smith in Canada, they firstly spent hours mapping out behaviour based on his personality type, with different directions they would take if he said this or that. It's on YouTube (the narrated version) and it's a work of art. They completely cornered him and he had nowhere to go. The entire thing was done based on human patterns of behaviour. We only have so many variables, they considered each variable, planned for it, and nailed him.

CW's behaviour after the event, including his lies, is a strong indication of guilt and will be considered evidence if this case goes to trial.

Do you happen to recall the name of this video? I'd like to see it. Thanks

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It is according to experts. A persons behavior after an event can indeed be considered evidence of guilt. Humans have patterns of behaviour and many clues can be gained from such patterns.

When interrogators interrogated Russell Smith in Canada, they firstly spent hours mapping out behaviour based on his personality type, with different directions they would take if he said this or that. It's on YouTube (the narrated version) and it's a work of art. They completely cornered him and he had nowhere to go. The entire thing was done based on human patterns of behaviour. We only have so many variables, they considered each variable, planned for it, and nailed him.

CW's behaviour after the event, including his lies, is a strong indication of guilt and will be considered evidence if this case goes to trial.

Thank you so much for that background. I'm watching it now and it's very helpful as to understand how they may have interrogated Chris for his confession. This is a mainstream channel YouTube special on it in Canada, " The Fifth Estate" television program

ETA- I'm halfway through it and it is so relevant to this case perhaps. How they show him that we have the footprints, we have the tire prints, and how the interviewer mirrored his posture. And how they bring them in during the interview, and show them to him. So interesting. And watching this, I'm just thinking Chris is on the other side that desk in this interview.

And also in this interview, he is concerned about the impact to his family/wife. That was his primary concern that he gave to the detective before he told the truth in this video. Kind of like what Chris said, that he wanted to talk to his father first before he told the truth.

It took the interviewer 4 hours and 40 minutes to get to the confession, and the beginning of where they presented him with a map to show where the body was..

ETA #2

And he said his primary concern at the interview when he gave the confession was I want to make my family/wife's life a little bit easier (when I do this confession)

Sound familiar?

 

[Inthedetails]

Unfortunately, all of these things are particularly relevant to certain people who want to push the narrative that Shanann was an abusive mother who could have killed her children.

From what I can surmise, the logic is this:

The kids are sick often.

Because the kids are sick so often, Shannan must be making them sick.

If she’s making the kids sick, she must have some mental illness.

If she’s mentally ill, she could have killed her children.

If she could have killed her children, she DID kill her children.

<mod snip>.

No. That is not at all the way I think of the health topic at all.

It's more like - SW and kids had multiple health issues that required her attention and perhaps gave her admiration....and that situation can be stressful on the family, even for a family member who doesn't have health issues.

Health and the approach to health might be another factor that stressed the relationship, just like financials and affairs likely stressed the relationship, and I'd like to think we could talk about it without others telling us it's ridiculous to think health and healthcare choices is a worthwhile topic.

And THAT is the avenue I had hoped to discuss. The health discussion does not imply SW killed the kids, which is certainly not the direction I personally was headed. (In fact, if SW manipulated some health issues for attention, she wouldn't then kill them because there's no admiration to be gained in that.)

I also have family members with "hidden" diseases and know how unappreciated the comments like "but you look so good" can be. I also have people in my circle who manipulate health issues and I have experienced how that can strain relationships.

People have real health problems.
People exaggerate health problems.
People downplay health problems.
People sometimes have real, exaggerated, and downplayed health problems in some combination.
All of those situations can have an affect on other people in the family.

I'd like to think that we can discuss nuances and variations in terms of his particular case.

jmopinion at the moment, which might not match others' opinion

 

[MerryB]

No. That is not at all the way I think of the health topic at all.

It's more like - SW and kids had multiple health issues that required her attention and perhaps gave her admiration....and that situation can be stressful on the family, even for a family member who doesn't have health issues.

Health and the approach to health might be another factor that stressed the relationship, just like financials and affairs likely stressed the relationship, and I'd like to think we could talk about it without others telling us it's ridiculous to think health and healthcare choices is a worthwhile topic.

And THAT is the avenue I had hoped to discuss. The health discussion does not imply SW killed the kids, which is certainly not the direction I personally was headed. (In fact, if SW manipulated some health issues for attention, she wouldn't then kill them because there's no admiration to be gained in that.)

I also have family members with "hidden" diseases and know how unappreciated the comments like "but you look so good" can be. I also have people in my circle who manipulate health issues and I have experienced how that can strain relationships.

People have real health problems.
People exaggerate health problems.
People downplay health problems.
People sometimes have real, exaggerated, and downplayed health problems in some combination.
All of those situations can have an affect on other people in the family.

I'd like to think that we can discuss nuances and variations in terms of his particular case.

jmopinion at the moment, which might not match others

Great post. And, since our VI stated some close to SW questioned the validity of her claims regarding her/her daughters’ health, I think it’s something we should consider. We also should not automatically assume all these ailments were diagnosed just bc SW stated they had them IMO.

 

[Ultra Violet]

Of course they do, but they belong to the doctor. A doctor can, if he wishes give a summary, but not the records.
A doctor would never write anything derogatory about a patient in his files. The notes for one visit are usually only one line, describing the symptom and treatment.

In my personal experience (as someone who has reviewed hundreds of thousands of pages of medical records) -

I have seen doctors order questionable or unnecessary tests, medications, and yes - even procedures. I have seen documentation indicate that patients have pressured doctors for a particular diagnosis/test/procedure which the doctors initially resist and then end up ordering (IMO, they are likely concerned about potential malpractice if they don’t listen to the patient). Most records are actually quite extensive and include a fairly lengthy and detailed narrative regarding the visit and the interaction with the patient.

I have also seen (on numerous occasions) doctors make unfavorable mentions of the patient in the records - that they are argumentative, combative, irrational, demanding, etc. - so often that it doesn’t really surprise me any more. I’m not saying it’s right - just that it definitely happens.

I regularly view my medical records and notes from specialists both hard copy and online. I also regularly get hard copies from my primary care provider and other specialists that are not online. Some are longer than others, but they all read like War and Peace. The primary care provider notes are the shortest of all of them, but still can get quite long, (depending on the nature of the appointment, of course.) I’m mostly pointing this out because I am in CO, about an hour from where SW lived.

 

[mtnlites]

Great post. And, since our VI stated some close to SW questioned the validity of her claims regarding her/her daughters’ health, I think it’s something we should consider. We also should not automatically assume all these ailments were diagnosed just bc SW stated they had them IMO.

Or automatically assume she doesn't have them because "some people" in her life questioned it. I do not share my medical records with random people in my life; if they choose not to believe I have something, it's no skin off my back.

 

[CFlo]

Yeah some said that's all they would need. It was for the trip to NC.

Jumping in as this topic didn’t include what Shanann’s response was back to her friends. And that was that she had needed them for Bella. While this may not have been that airlines policy, she had clearly been asked for the records prior, so why take a chance? There’s enough frenzy at the airport for anyone, let alone with two children in tow. Also, that post stated she was getting those records WHILE AT a check up for CeCe. An already scheduled visit.
To fly, a child needs identification. The three forms of acceptable documents are, birth certificate, passport or immunization records.
Shanann did respond she had their birth certificates. BUT had needed them in the past for Bella. Period.
To prove age of child is a secondary topic in terms of $ for a seat. I actually never paid for a seat for my last even when I brought the car seat, but simply because I got lucky a) empty seats b) nice gate agents.
Yes, airline websites do list acceptable forms of id for children. HOWEVER, and speaking from experience of being a frequent flyer WITH children for the last two decades, a cranky or less than helpful ticket agent, TSA agent and/or gate attendant may ask for more documents.
Also calling the airline doesn’t guarantee you’ll get a knowledgeable agent nor will that agent be there upon your check in pointS for your flight.
I myself have had my own experiences with this.
At any rate, what is the relevance HERE to whether or not a Mother would obtain immunization records to fly with their children. Which btw, besides numerous cranky in person agents suddenly changing policy as they fit as I lugged a car seat and infant in tow... it is good to have shot records with you when you travel in case of an emergency.
Relevance? I think I may be missing something but also, why are we nitpicking her SM posts again/still. If anything, being thorough just provides more proof, IMO, as to the caring loving and out together mother she was. No, I am not saying that y’all aren’t saying she wasn’t.... before that grows legs too as other topics here have (this last past of my sentence lands at random).
P.S. sorry for the length. A couple weeks ago, I had to take a self imposted time out from posting. I am caught up though and did like some posts along the way.

 

[Inthedetails]

Or automatically assume she doesn't have them because "some people" in her life questioned it. I do not share my medical records with random people in my life; if they choose not to believe I have something, it's no skin off my back.

That's right. It goes both ways.

But health definitely is something SW was interested in, personally and professionally. It's a valid topic in the case, imo. (And I realize it's sensitive - we all have some sort of experience with health, after all!)

jmo

 

[CFlo]

Great post. And, since our VI stated some close to SW questioned the validity of her claims regarding her/her daughters’ health, I think it’s something we should consider. We also should not automatically assume all these ailments were diagnosed just bc SW stated they had them IMO.

Hi Miss B,
Is this the same VI that had stated that CW had asked SW for a separation numerous times before (paraphrasing)?
Trying to keep VIs straight in my notes, thanks in advance.
If so, does that give you pause and does it to you (or others here), that’s a direct contradiction as to what CW said?

 

[Deleted member 230544]

About SW. I don't know her at all but to me, she does look like a person who put certain faith in "natural" things. If these parents take their kids to doctors too often, it is not Munchausen by proxy. It is probably new natural remedy. If such parents harm their kids, it is not through physical harm; they are merely over trusting "natural" things as opposed to medicinal drugs. Psychologically, such parents are, in fact, very concerned about their kids, but occasionally put too much faith into unproven remedies. This I can imagine about SW, but maybe I am mistaken. In short, if someone told me SW was concerned about vaccines or "leaky gut", or antibiotics, I would not be surprised. But physically harming her kids, choking them? Give me a break!

I apologize if I am wrong here, I am trying to understand the nature of frequent doctor's visits.

Just putting it out there but in regards to Thrive products being "natural" if you look at the ingredient lists, they are not all "natural" in the true sense. They are still considered a processed food item IMO, at least to my standard of what I consider a processed food and what is not a processed food.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

I had this thought before a prior thread closed.

Some were wondering when and why he was fired. That got me to thinking...
What if he anticipated he would get fired because his affair with a coworker was outed at work, if relationships with coworkers is against company policy? SW would learn of an affair and a firing all in one go. If this was the case, what would CW do in response and why? What would SW do in response and why? To me, it still leads to CW who murdered the children.

@Waterdog, that is an excellent possibility.

 

[SoCalGirl]

I think it’s possible she also left more marks on herself. In a panic, she may have been trying to get her hands beneath his hold, whatever kind it was, which might see her putting claw marks on her own neck. If that’s the case, we will see it in the ME report.

This is my first post here, so I hope I'm doing this right. I've been reading the threads for a while and I know it's been mentioned before, but I believe CW DID have marks on his neck during that porch interview. Even Yahoo commenters pointed out red marks or scratches on the left side of his neck and something on his face. Also, the notion that you would see someone strangling your child and your response would be to strangle that person back is ludicrous. You'd grab her from behind, body slam her, grab something and hit her. That story makes no sense at all to me.

 

[Lucyray]

I think you understandably want to see the physical evidence (beyond the bodies being where he said he hid them). I totally get that. We all look forward to more evidence. But I differ in your determination of what constitutes evidence in general. These lies do constitute circumstantial evidence that a jury can and will use to decide if someone committed murder. Circumstantial evidence can be very powerful, as it is so far in this case. I do not believe it is a rush to judgment to find it to be powerful. I also do not think any of us who think there is enough evidence already to convict would not revise our conclusions if and when new evidence comes to light. We have just merely been saying that given what we know so far, we think a jury could convict beyond a reasonable doubt. It does not mean we are close minded to new evidence. Hope this helps bridge the divide?

What a wise post! A peacemaker! Thank you.

 

[SoccerMotha]

Yes and that, to me, is a red flag. JMO

Ok I've been reading backwards and I'm honestly just getting angry. I don't know the Watts health history but I am a mom with a medically complex child. Below is my experience only, though I believe it happens far too often these days. My son was born with neurofibromatosis type 1, we knew this pretty quickly as my husband has it and he had other identifiers, thankfully he's not had too many troubles with NF.....skip ahead to kindergarten and from the get go my son was sick and I mean sick, non-stop. At first, I thought it was normal because he hadn't attended a daycare or been around a lot of different germs so his immune system needed boosting. I am not exaggerating when I say my child coughed day and night for years. I repeatedly told his pediatrician that I thought it was something more, in my gut I knew it, I requested they do a blood draw and they looked at me like I had three heads. In 1st grade, we saw an allergist whom completed the lung spirometry tests before every visit and he suspected cold induced asthma. From there steroids all the time, inhalers, meds, etc. My son never got better, we continued to see the pulmonologist every six months. Skip ahead to 2nd grade, my son got pneumonia in December, his pediatrician told me his lungs sounded fine on 3 separate visits, the 4th visit I demanded an x-ray that guess what?! Showed that he had pneumonia in both lungs. They of course prescribed antibiotics and sent us on our way. In May, again he got pneumonia and again his pediatrician said it was a virus and I simply stated that I disagreed and told them to do an x-ray and again he had pneumonia. Now in June his pulmonlogist decided to do a CT of his lungs and discovered he had bronchiectasis and admitted him to the hospital the next day. After a week in the hospital they discovered that my son had common variable immunodeficiency, basically his immune system was not up to par and he would need to start IVIG infusions. My son has been receiving infusions every 4 weeks for a year and half and he's doing amazing though we will have to start going every three weeks soon. My son no longer needs inhalers, meds, his body shaking thing we call it. He's only needed antibiotics once and doesn't even see his pulmonologist anymore as his immunologist took over.

The reason I tell you the above story is because I got to a point, with his now former pediatrician, where I knew I wasn't being taken seriously and I was paranoid that they thought I was making it all up and with the stigma of so called "doctor shopping" I didn't want people giving me the side eye. All along though I was right and far too often mothers are brushed off by doctors when we know our kids most. The medical talk in reference to the girls is just making me very uncomfortable so I will continue to scroll and roll but please don't judge this woman for being an advocate for her children's health.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

MyBelle said: ↑
I don't believe affairs with coworkers are against company policy in most large corporations. What is usually against company policy is affairs between boss/subordinates or in the line of command and we still don't know the identity of CW's mistress. JMO

I am pretty sure burying your wife and dumping your children in vats of crude oil on your employer's property would be grounds for immediate termination of employment.

I don't think that was @MyBelle's point in their post Jennifer17 and no one would ever dispute the point you made but I do concur with MyBelle's suggestion that most companies do not fire employees for fraternization and we don't know precisely what precipitated CW getting fired and precisely how it fell in line with CW's arrest and what CW employers were privy to at the time of his firing.

 

[MsBetsy]

No, I haven't but I was not aware that anywhere in the world were executives privvy to patients health information.
Isn't that what HIPPA is about? Can any office staff, view patient records.
This is not what we are talking about here anyway. This is about a private GP. Hospitals probably do own the patient records but doctors own their own records from their private practices.

Generally, medical records can only be accessed for the purpose of providing treatment to a patient. This includes anyone who is involved in direct care of the patient. Only in the course of business may they be accessed by non- medical personnel. Thats in hospitals and I'm sure applies to Dr's offices. Non medical employees must have consent or authorization. At any rate, in terms of any suspicion of child neglect or abuse, a Dr is required by law to report any suspicion or signs at once. If there is no documentation of this, it would be likely impossible to prove in a courtroom. They would need some hard evidence, such as visits by Child Protective Services, as a result of a Dr. or health care worker reporting abuse, rather than opinions of people that knew them. Jmo

 

[PommyMommy]

Unfortunately, all of these things are particularly relevant to certain people who want to push the narrative that Shanann was an abusive mother who could have killed her children.

From what I can surmise, the logic is this:

The kids are sick often.

Because the kids are sick so often, Shannan must be making them sick.

If she’s making the kids sick, she must have some mental illness.

If she’s mentally ill, she could have killed her children.

If she could have killed her children, she DID kill her children.

Get it? Because I sure as hell don’t.

Yeah, this reads more like a Law and Order SVU plot than a real-life defense theory. I know it is very, very early, but nothing I have seen from CW’s defense team gives me any indication that they’re going to fabricate a theory out of thin air. I know it’s happened, but I don’t see it at this point. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

MyBelle said: ↑
I don't believe affairs with coworkers are against company policy in most large corporations. What is usually against company policy is affairs between boss/subordinates or in the line of command and we still don't know the identity of CW's mistress. JMO



I don't think that was @MyBelle's point in their post Jennifer17 and no one would ever dispute the point you made but I do concur with MyBelle's suggestion that most companies do not fire employees for fraternization and we don't know precisely what precipitated CW getting fired and precisely how it fell in line with CW's arrest and what CW employers were privy to at the time of his firing.

I think it depends on the type of employment and job situation. Someone I know that worked for UPS had to quit because they also hired his wife and for some reason it wasn't allowed. He got her the job, so go figure. Schools love husband and wife employees. But either way, yes I think the fact that If an employee of theirs had done something illegal and immoral and would generate a lot of publicity, they might not want to have him around. As opposed to just having an affair alone. Jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi Miss B,
Is this the same VI that had stated that CW had asked SW for a separation numerous times before (paraphrasing)?
Trying to keep VIs straight in my notes, thanks in advance.
If so, does that give you pause and does it to you (or others here), that’s a direct contradiction as to what CW said?

I found Trinket78's posts about separation -

Yes I am aware of the one affair and was from the beginning. She also knew he wanted a separation before her trip. She continued to post about how wonderful he was. He deleted his Facebook after that.
He told her multiple times. She refused to believe him.

What's not clear to me is why CW continued to have sexual relations with SW which would result in a pregnancy if he wanted a separation? He was having an affair with his co-worker, surely he could refuse SW for any number of reasons.

 

[Kensie]

Convenience - having sex with SW.

I will never catch up!!!