Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #26

[Best of What's Around]

Are motives for crimes, especially murder, ever reasonable ?

I didn't think that's what motive meant, I thought it was more the perp's reason---not that it's valid or reasonable or understandable...

Like, greed and lust are common motives, but nobody non-criminal is like oh yay killing for money is neat.

Good point. <modsnip> It is not verbal abuse in most people's opinions, from what has been offered and discussed already so much. Please see our VI Attorney's excellent post to this regard. And whose motive are we discussing? He said he killed her in a rage because of the girls. Are you saying she killed the girls because she has made some unkind jokes at her husband's expense?

 

[Tigerlily75]

Yeah. I would be laughed out of court if I tried to get a restraining order citing "abuse" based on what people have posted here from her SM.

I'm wondering if it's just a matter of not really knowing? For example, I have clients all. the. time. tell me they are being or have been "harassed" or verbally abused by an ex. Most of the time it is not even close.

They believe arguments, snarkiness, yelling, being rude o disrespectful, or demanding info, is abuse or harassment.

Here's are some anecdotes to tell the difference, when it comes to what I can successfully argue is or is not abuse in court:

Yelling, in the heat of a fight and break up, "I hate you! Do you know that? You're evil! You're a terrible person and I wish you had NEVER been born!!! Get the hell out of my life! You are an awful wife and a horrible mother! I can't believe I married you!"

Not abuse. Not harassment.

Telling a spouse, not even having to yell, "You're a c word. You're a b word. You effing b word. You're a *advertiser censored*. You disgust me. No man will ever love you. I hope you die. Maybe I will be lucky."

That's verbal abuse.

Texting or emailing a lengthy email to your ex telling him all the things he should have done and did not with the kids that day?:

"She came home dirty with a soiled diaper. You gave her soda and she can;t have that. You are being neglectful with her diet. You need to tell me the next time you leave her with a babysitter and I need the name, number and address of the sitter. And the next time you pick a sitter without consulting me I'm taking you to court for contempt. What is the name of the sitter?"

Not harassment. Not abuse.

Sending that very same message 15 times a within an hour or so? It's now harassment. Add a couple of curse words or threats of harm? It becomes abuse.

In public, joking that your husband lost a game and is thus the "L Word." Stating he's not helpful. He's some kind of "genius", sarcastically. Complaining about how you have to do it all or he gets things wrong all the time.

Good for a marriage? Probably not if the spouse isn't playing a long and feels offended. But, not abuse. Not close.

Telling him with anger on repeated occasions, that he is a loser, constantly telling him and others that he is stupid and worthless and a bad father or husband?

That's emotional abuse.

Yesss!

 

[MassGuy]

The only strategy I see here is providing CW with the best possible defense. They are not going to make things easy for the State (nor should they; they have an ethical duty to provide the best defense possible).

The Constitution is a living, breathing document and things can change. But do I think the judge will grant the State’s motion? Yes, I do.

Have a look the below:

https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1522&context=faculty_publications

Hypothetically. Say CW confessed to his lawyers that he was responsible for killing his entire family, could they still (ethically and legally) use the defense that SW did this?

 

[flourish]

Yeah. I would be laughed out of court if I tried to get a restraining order citing "abuse" based on what people have posted here from her SM.

I'm wondering if it's just a matter of not really knowing? For example, I have clients all. the. time. tell me they are being or have been "harassed" or verbally abused by an ex. Most of the time it is not even close.

They believe arguments, snarkiness, yelling, being rude o disrespectful, or demanding info, is abuse or harassment.

Here's are some anecdotes to tell the difference, when it comes to what I can successfully argue is or is not abuse in court:

Yelling, in the heat of a fight and break up, "I hate you! Do you know that? You're evil! You're a terrible person and I wish you had NEVER been born!!! Get the hell out of my life! You are an awful wife and a horrible mother! I can't believe I married you!"

Not abuse. Not harassment.

Telling a spouse, not even having to yell, "You're a c word. You're a b word. You effing b word. You're a *advertiser censored*. You disgust me. No man will ever love you. I hope you die. Maybe I will be lucky."

That's verbal abuse.

Texting or emailing a lengthy email to your ex telling him all the things he should have done and did not with the kids that day?:

"She came home dirty with a soiled diaper. You gave her soda and she can;t have that. You are being neglectful with her diet. You need to tell me the next time you leave her with a babysitter and I need the name, number and address of the sitter. And the next time you pick a sitter without consulting me I'm taking you to court for contempt. What is the name of the sitter?"

Not harassment. Not abuse.

Sending that very same message 15 times a within an hour or so? It's now harassment. Add a couple of curse words or threats of harm? It becomes abuse.

In public, joking that your husband lost a game and is thus the "L Word." Stating he's not helpful. He's some kind of "genius", sarcastically. Complaining about how you have to do it all or he gets things wrong all the time.

Good for a marriage? Probably not if the spouse isn't playing a long and feels offended. But, not abuse. Not close.

Telling him with anger on repeated occasions, that he is a loser, constantly telling him and others that he is stupid and worthless and a bad father or husband?

That's emotional abuse.

Rbbm



You could get a restraining order based on the second bolded portion, identified as "verbal abuse"?

 

[human]

Sorry you had that experience. It would not surprise me if SW is the one who provoked the discussion and ripped the sheets off the bed. Since LE found the bottom sheet, I assume it would be tested for DNA. JMO

Do you think she went to sleep on the couch and that is why the phone was there

Thanks for confirming that others are sleuthing a dissolved corporation that SW was once employed by -- more than 10 years ago!

I brought up the question as it was said she was a coowner. I wondered where the money was from it. There was no indication of a sale of the business nor income from the business in the bankruptcy.

Thanks to a lawyer who figured out to find this info

 

[Layla123]

Outstanding job, Layla123. I watched this show twice, and I can attest that you provided us with a very thorough recap. Thank You!

I perked up when #6 was discussed. CW is contesting everything but the jailhouse sink, yet he goes radio silent regarding accusations of his having multiple affairs with male and female partners. Hmmmmm.

So what do you think it means? Not true, so they aren’t concerned about it? But the others they mention are true?

 

[Deleted member 230544]

delete by Bluff

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I tease my husband about his "old people flip phone" (Consumer Cellular) and call him Teetterbutt and stuff, I asked him if that was mean or it bothered him and he said no. He said he'd know something was up if I stopped teasing him.

 

[katie565]

Verbal abuse is something hurtful that is intended to humiliate. The perception of the party on the receiving end is all that matters. JMO

I agree. The intent doesn’t matter to the receiver.

 

[MsBetsy]

Sorry you had that experience. It would not surprise me if SW is the one who provoked the discussion and ripped the sheets off the bed. Since LE found the bottom sheet, I assume it would be tested for DNA. JMO

Or the sheets may have fallen to the floor from the violent thrashing that occurs with victims of strangulation.

 

[Seattle1]

Do you think she went to sleep on the couch and that is why the phone was there


I brought up the question as it was said she was a coowner. I wondered where the money was from it. There was no indication of a sale of the business nor income from the business in the bankruptcy.

Thanks to a lawyer who figured out to find this info

And whoever alleged she was an owner was wrong. The fact is somebody sleuthed an old lawsuit (actually a motion dismissed) looking for crumbs and one more reason to dis a dead women -- unable to defend herself. MOO

 

[CocoChanel]

Will CLW be kept in solitary only while under suicide watch? *IF * he is removed from suicide watch will he still be in solitary until sentencing? Thoughts? Anyone ?

My uninformed thought is yes, he will be handled very carefully at least until sentencing. I think the state very much wants to see this thing through.

 

[Johnny1181]

The only strategy I see here is providing CW with the best possible defense. They are not going to make things easy for the State (nor should they; they have an ethical duty to provide the best defense possible).

The Constitution is a living, breathing document and things can change. But do I think the judge will grant the State’s motion? Yes, I do.

Have a look the below:

https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1522&context=faculty_publications

Holy crap.... lol! Pardon my language. I'm on page six and I think about to be drawn into the weeds of this particular decision.

Thank you number one, for offering your opinion and the information, number two for sharing this document, number three restoring my faith in precedent during these times, and on a personal note stimulating my education, giving me a chance to learn, and providing some tools. Thank you. I need more of this in my life while pursuing my studies.

 

[Mosaic]

You tube video in front of home after they went missing. Same shirt etc but I don't recognize the interviewer but it is an interview clearly of CW and I have never seen it posted ever before on WS.

RBBM AFAIK, they were never "missing", CW hide them; Bella and Cece dumped on separate oil tanks and Shannon on a shallow grave.
I think it is worth the clarification. MO, based on LE documents discussed on the threads.

 

[MKZoo]

I tease my husband about his "old people flip phone" (Consumer Cellular) and call him Teetterbutt and stuff, I asked him if that was mean or it bothered him and he said no. He said he'd know something was up if I stopped teasing him.

I call mine a dork and a nerd quite a lot. Because... he is sometimes both. But he knows this is something I actually love about him and does and says deliberately dorky nerdy things to play in to it. I’m sure if anyone who didn’t know us heard me, they might think I’m a jerk.

 

[MyBelle]

Respectfully, while everyone's feelings certainly do matter, I think that reasonable people along with the guidance of experts judge what is verbal abuse. Many, many people here do not see evidence of verbal abuse in the FB posts. Many people engage in ribbing behavior in their loving relationships. I think the fact that so many of us do not believe this constituted verbal abuse (not to say it never existed in this relationship - we can't know) should be taken into account that it might not be a smoking gun here. That said, people find offense and fly off the handle at so many things that otherwise reasonable people wouldn't - so yes, it can go to motive, but I still do not see the significance here personally. If controlling, ribbing, or even exasperated throwaway unkind comments often resulted in murder, I'm afraid there wouldn't be many people left. I for sure would not be here! Marriage in most cases, and please correct me if I am wrong, has moments like these. And wonderful, lovely moments - which were also very well present on the FB videos. Almost no one is fair all the time. And not everyone loves the joking around at someone's expense, but if you watch the videos, SM does something I also do - which is pokes fun at herself at her own expense as well. It is a very common trait for those of us who joke around like that with loved ones, IMO.

If your loved one doesn't mind then that is up to them.

In an intimate relationship, only the person on the receiving end gets to decide how they perceive a comment made directly to them. That's how it works in the adult world. Words do matter. If they didn't, Judges wouldn't be granting protection orders based on text messages and there wouldn't be the need for Chicago to dedicate an entire courthouse to domestic violence. JMO

 

[Deleted member 230544]

delete by Bluff

 

[Yvettea]

Some people cannot be teased. They will misinterpret your intentions.

 

[DexterMorgan]

If your loved one doesn't mind then that is up to them.

In an intimate relationship, only the person on the receiving end gets to decide how they perceive a comment made directly to them. That's how it works in the adult world. Words do matter. If they didn't, Judges wouldn't be granting protection orders based on text messages and there wouldn't be the need for Chicago to dedicate an entire courthouse to domestic violence. JMO

But he didn't kill the kids.

She did. So he must have verbally abused her.

Remember?

 

[katie565]

Delete

 

[flourish]

I absolutely agree that analysis of motive is a relevant point of discussion. It is crucial in understanding what occurred, and why.

We know they had financial problems.
We know CW was unfaithful.

So we have financial problems and marital problems as possible motives right there.

Both of these issues aren’t mutually exclusive, and may have been a combined precipitating stressor to the murders.

But analyzing the marital problems, and diagnosing their cause by pointing to Facebook posts, doesn’t provide solid evidence of anything IMO.

So? I have to have solid proof before I can reasonably take something into consideration?

Nobody who thinks CW is guilty of all have been influenced by the SM stuff? Nobody stating Shanann couldn't possibly have done it uses her SM as evidence of their perspective? Uhno. It comes into discussion a lot and it's used to back up those opinions. My personal opinion is subject to change based on more info... And I've expressed theories I have about cw being the perp!