Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #26

[flourish]

Respectfully, while everyone's feelings certainly do matter, I think that reasonable people along with the guidance of experts judge what is verbal abuse. Many, many people here do not see evidence of verbal abuse in the FB posts. Many people engage in ribbing behavior in their loving relationships. I think the fact that so many of us do not believe this constituted verbal abuse (not to say it never existed in this relationship - we can't know) should be taken into account that it might not be a smoking gun here. That said, people find offense and fly off the handle at so many things that otherwise reasonable people wouldn't - so yes, it can go to motive, but I still do not see the significance here personally. If controlling, ribbing, or even exasperated throwaway unkind comments often resulted in murder, I'm afraid there wouldn't be many people left. I for sure would not be here! Marriage in most cases, and please correct me if I am wrong, has moments like these. And wonderful, lovely moments - which were also very well present on the FB videos. Almost no one is fair all the time. And not everyone loves the joking around at someone's expense, but if you watch the videos, SM does something I also do - which is pokes fun at herself at her own expense as well. It is a very common trait for those of us who joke around like that with loved ones, IMO.

BBM

you said it yourself it can go to motive so how would that not be reasonable to discuss here? It's part of discussing possible motives. Motives aren't excuses or rationalizations, they're part of the big picture of the crime. Well worth examining, imo.

 

[Best of What's Around]

Yeah. I would be laughed out of court if I tried to get a restraining order citing "abuse" based on what people have posted here from her SM.

I'm wondering if it's just a matter of not really knowing? For example, I have clients all. the. time. tell me they are being or have been "harassed" or verbally abused by an ex. Most of the time it is not even close.

They believe arguments, snarkiness, yelling, being rude o disrespectful, or demanding info, is abuse or harassment.

Here's are some anecdotes to tell the difference, when it comes to what I can successfully argue is or is not abuse in court:

Yelling, in the heat of a fight and break up, "I hate you! Do you know that? You're evil! You're a terrible person and I wish you had NEVER been born!!! Get the hell out of my life! You are an awful wife and a horrible mother! I can't believe I married you!"

Not abuse. Not harassment.

Telling a spouse, not even having to yell, "You're a c word. You're a b word. You effing b word. You're a *advertiser censored*. You disgust me. No man will ever love you. I hope you die. Maybe I will be lucky."

That's verbal abuse.

Texting or emailing a lengthy email to your ex telling him all the things he should have done and did not with the kids that day?:

"She came home dirty with a soiled diaper. You gave her soda and she can;t have that. You are being neglectful with her diet. You need to tell me the next time you leave her with a babysitter and I need the name, number and address of the sitter. And the next time you pick a sitter without consulting me I'm taking you to court for contempt. What is the name of the sitter?"

Not harassment. Not abuse.

Sending that very same message 15 times a within an hour or so? It's now harassment. Add a couple of curse words or threats of harm? It becomes abuse.

In public, joking that your husband lost a game and is thus the "L Word." Stating he's not helpful. He's some kind of "genius", sarcastically. Complaining about how you have to do it all or he gets things wrong all the time.

Good for a marriage? Probably not if the spouse isn't playing a long and feels offended. But, not abuse. Not close.

Telling him with anger on repeated occasions, that he is a loser, constantly telling him and others that he is stupid and worthless and a bad father or husband?

That's emotional abuse.

Where is the button to like this 100 times? THANK YOU.

 

[Allabouttrial]

You tube video in front of home after they went missing. Same shirt etc but I don't recognize the interviewer but it is an interview clearly of CW and I have never seen it posted ever before on WS.

Thank you I will have a look!

 

[Kensie]

Good night all. A rough day. Until tomorrow and more than likely I will ask for a recap.
Darn work interferes with my WS life.

RIP Shanann, Belle and Celeste.

 

[katydid23]

That's what I ascertained from the motion too. Do you feel the defense want the State to show their hand so to speak?

I am sure that they do want the state to show their hand, as you suggest.

But I think their biggest priority is preventing their client from having to show his hand, literally and figuratively.

I am pretty sure they know that there is quite possibly some bruising and some deep hand prints on those two tiny necks.

If CW was not their killer, wouldn't he hand those palm prints right over--to exonerate himself?

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

AB 9/18/18

6. Interesting that C.W. did not complain about information revealed about multiple affairs with male and female partners.
.

Outstanding job, @Layla123 . I watched this show twice, and I can attest that you provided us with a very thorough recap. Thank You!

I perked up when #6 was discussed. CW is contesting everything but the jailhouse sink, yet he goes radio silent regarding accusations of his having multiple affairs with male and female partners. Hmmmmm.

 

[Best of What's Around]

BBM

you said it yourself it can go to motive so how would that not be reasonable to discuss here? It's part of discussing possible motives. Motives aren't excuses or rationalizations, they're part of the big picture of the crime. Well worth examining, imo.

It is not a reasonable motive, IMO. My wife didn't worship the ground I walked on. Oh yes, she did in those videos...but here are 3 where she said I stink at losing and a genius for leaving the phone in the garage.

 

[soap mama]

Who/what is AP??

 

[Allabouttrial]

I am sure that they do want the state to show their hand, as you suggest.

But I think their biggest priority is preventing their client from having to show his hand, literally and figuratively.

I am pretty sure they know that there is quite possibly some bruising and some deep hand prints on those two tiny necks.

If CW was not their killer, wouldn't he hand those palm prints right over--to exonerate himself?

Not necessarily, which is why I was asking the VI if my thoughts could be the reasoning behind the refusal.

 

[greatminds]

The prosecution has asked to have the autopsy sealed. Does that mean they’ve seen it? If they’ve seen it and then asked for palm prints, etc I’m encouraged there may be forensic evidence on the bodies even after the oil dumping.

They've probably reviewed it. Maybe they requested CW's palm prints to compare their size, shape to the compressed/damaged areas of the neck.

 

[NuttMegg]

I just hope CW is torturing himself with guilt and was the new squeeze worth it, or were Sw's mean remarks worth it, was any of it worth it? Welcome to Hell CW.

I don't think CW will ever not be locked up for his remaining years. Whether it is the big house or a psychiatric hospital. He will always be caged to live with the nightmare that he created and the lives that he destroyed.

We can sure hope.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

Thank you I will have a look!

I don't see a moderator on the thread so don't know who to confirm with.

 

[MassGuy]

BBM

you said it yourself it can go to motive so how would that not be reasonable to discuss here? It's part of discussing possible motives. Motives aren't excuses or rationalizations, they're part of the big picture of the crime. Well worth examining, imo.

I absolutely agree that analysis of motive is a relevant point of discussion. It is crucial in understanding what occurred, and why.

We know they had financial problems.
We know CW was unfaithful.

So we have financial problems and marital problems as possible motives right there.

Both of these issues aren’t mutually exclusive, and may have been a combined precipitating stressor to the murders.

But analyzing the marital problems, and diagnosing their cause by pointing to Facebook posts, doesn’t provide solid evidence of anything IMO.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

This.

@gitana always make the "this" posts.

 

[nwmouse]

Yeah. I would be laughed out of court if I tried to get a restraining order citing "abuse" based on what people have posted here from her SM.

I'm wondering if it's just a matter of not really knowing? For example, I have clients all. the. time. tell me they are being or have been "harassed" or verbally abused by an ex. Most of the time it is not even close.

They believe arguments, snarkiness, yelling, being rude o disrespectful, or demanding info, is abuse or harassment.

Here's are some anecdotes to tell the difference, when it comes to what I can successfully argue is or is not abuse in court:

Yelling, in the heat of a fight and break up, "I hate you! Do you know that? You're evil! You're a terrible person and I wish you had NEVER been born!!! Get the hell out of my life! You are an awful wife and a horrible mother! I can't believe I married you!"

Not abuse. Not harassment.

Telling a spouse, not even having to yell, "You're a c word. You're a b word. You effing b word. You're a *advertiser censored*. You disgust me. No man will ever love you. I hope you die. Maybe I will be lucky."

That's verbal abuse.

Texting or emailing a lengthy email to your ex telling him all the things he should have done and did not with the kids that day?:

"She came home dirty with a soiled diaper. You gave her soda and she can;t have that. You are being neglectful with her diet. You need to tell me the next time you leave her with a babysitter and I need the name, number and address of the sitter. And the next time you pick a sitter without consulting me I'm taking you to court for contempt. What is the name of the sitter?"

Not harassment. Not abuse.

Sending that very same message 15 times a within an hour or so? It's now harassment. Add a couple of curse words or threats of harm? It becomes abuse.

In public, joking that your husband lost a game and is thus the "L Word." Stating he's not helpful. He's some kind of "genius", sarcastically. Complaining about how you have to do it all or he gets things wrong all the time.

Good for a marriage? Probably not if the spouse isn't playing a long and feels offended. But, not abuse. Not close.

Telling him with anger on repeated occasions, that he is a loser, constantly telling him and others that he is stupid and worthless and a bad father or husband?

That's emotional abuse.

Thank you for sharing these examples. I agree with you completely on the definitions you cited of abuse and harassment.
The videos of SW from her SM do not show her abusing CW or the girls in any way. Teasing yes. Abuse, no.

 

[cailleach]

Who/what is AP??

WS uses the term Affair Partner rather than some other commonly used terms.

 

[Allabouttrial]

I don't see a moderator on the thread so don't know who to confirm with.

Not sure either, but I have seen a few youtube vids. being put on recently. I think we even have the one with the demonstration of the oil tanks in the media thread so I can't see why not. There was also one put up here with a live case discussion a couple of weeks back.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Who/what is AP??

Affair Partner

 

[Mrspratcher]

Thank you for making that clearer! If you know... typically is this a successful strategy to overrule SC precedent? Sorry if I'm getting too much in the weeds here. Do you think this is a plausible strategy? Thank you again.

The only strategy I see here is providing CW with the best possible defense. They are not going to make things easy for the State (nor should they; they have an ethical duty to provide the best defense possible).

The Constitution is a living, breathing document and things can change. But do I think the judge will grant the State’s motion? Yes, I do.

Have a look the below:

https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1522&context=faculty_publications

 

[flourish]

It is not a reasonable motive, IMO. My wife didn't worship the ground I walked on. Oh yes, she did in those videos...but here are 3 where she said I stink at losing and a genius for leaving the phone in the garage.

Are motives for crimes, especially murder, ever reasonable ?

I didn't think that's what motive meant, I thought it was more the perp's reason---not that it's valid or reasonable or understandable...

Like, greed and lust are common motives, but nobody non-criminal is like oh yay killing for money is neat.