Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #49

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Regarding "Spo0ns" (as it is called by many in UK newspaper comments). Wetherspoons. Where to begin.

Wetherspoons owner vows to keep pubs open during CoVid Crisis (after the government said to shut them down):

Wetherspoon vows to keep pubs open during coronavirus crisis | Metro News

Wetherspoons owner becomes an expert on pandemics:

JD Wetherspoon boss says closing UK pubs will not stop coronavirus

Then of course, people rallied around him and others with the same views- and are defying social distancing in general as you can see in this picture:

Clap for carers: UK pays tribute to NHS and key workers

There are many other pictures. Every major bridge in London had unmasked people on them, clapping at whatever time it was supposed to be. Organized by Tim Martin (Spoons owner) and his friends, IMO.

Meanwhile, UK is already at nearly 16,o00 dead (mainly in England, hardly any Scotland). And it is way earlier in the process than Italy.

UK is at the bottom of Europe's list for testing:

https://i.redd.it/0ynuq02lott41.png

You can see where UK stands in terms of its relationship to its first cases here:

https://i.redd.it/3ug523gpskt41.png

Many pub owners followed Spoons and stayed open. I hear that some are still open. This would help account for why 16,000 people have died since March 16. Germany, which had its first reported deaths on March 20, sits at only 45,000. Its population density is greater than UK's and they have about the same number of people.

UK is only 50% bigger than California, population wise and has similar pattern of high and low density areas. Almost 16,000 dead in one month, California reported its first deaths a bit earlier - and we sit at just over 1000.

Then, Tim Martin (Wetherspoons owner) did shut down when it got back and abandoned his employees.

JD Wetherspoon denies ‘abandoning’ staff in coronavirus crisis

Then he walked that back and may or may not be paying some of them. As people build CoVid boycott lists, Wetherspoons is at the top of many Brit's list:

Flop of the Month: Wetherspoons boss Tim Martin sends wrong messages

What Tim and his Spoons companions don't realize, is that they are just prolonging the shutdown (just like the people in Huntington Beach - where, interestingly, people are also resisting getting the homeless into monitored and structured settings). Just like those people in Michigan. They want what they want, but they're only pushing back the date for reopening:
Pubs are def all shut and have been for maybe a month.

I think the advice/suggestion about closing bars and restaurants was around the 15 March (I remember because I got ill with the virus on 20 March after days of crisis talks with colleagues, who have also had it). The ruling came a few days later I think and there was no room for interpretation. My workplace closed on 24 March.

I saw one news story about one family run pub which was busted for having apparent lock ins, but otherwise I havent seen anything in the news here about pubs breaching orders tbh.
 
France - which has recorded close to 20,000 deaths as a result of the pandemic and has the fourth-highest toll in the world - has been in virtual lockdown for nearly five weeks and is due to start lifting some confinement measures from May 11.

Philippe told a news conference that falls in the number of people in intensive care were one of the encouraging signals that pressures on hospitals were easing.

But he shut down any expectations that the gradual exit from confinement in May, due to start with the reopening of schools, would allow people to move around or interact as before, especially as a vaccine against the virus was still far off.

"It won't be a return to normal life," Philippe said, adding that as France introduces more testing, people with coronavirus would have to remain isolated at home or in hotels laid on by the government. "From May 11, we will enter a second phase, when we will regain some of our freedoms."“


Number of people hospitalised for Covid-19 in France falls for fifth straight day
 
I understand that people want stuff open. I work in public health, with the dead, and I want caution.
I Am Working and my husband is retired so we are only Dealing with the crazy prices for only organic produce and meat from a nearby farm because I am staying out of stores. I am able to pay my bills and we can help our adult kids who so far don’t need it.
This is not a conspiracy and since I live on the east coast I fear we open too soon. I believe in our rights but also believe in most politicians who are trying their best!
 
Yes I find that feature useful too. I am watching Belgium. That is strange and I wonder if it could be due to population density like NY and NJ?
I read earlier (cant remember where sorry but UK news item) that re Belgium, it's mostly the Flanders area affected which is just above Brussels and borders France. The article suggested that locals may have picked it up on ski trips to Italy. Looking at a map, it's also where the ports of Zeebrugge and Ostend are, and would def be a thro route for truckers heading across to the UK. Whether any of these points are factors, idk.
 
Navy, CDC to Study COVID-19 Outbreak on Carrier Theodore Roosevelt - USNI News

“The serology tests will take the blood samples and look to see if a sailor developed antibodies for the virus.

“We’ll take anywhere from about five to seven days to collect those samples. Those samples will be then transported to the CDC in Atlanta and analyzed,” Gillingham said.
“Our goal is to try to complete that process in about a month or so.””
 
This is a general question, not necessarily to OP above.

This is a most interesting statement to me, and I've always wondered where the line lays with anti vacs folks/folks who don't get vaccines (although I thought was required by law such as Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (pertussis) (DTaP) Polio (IPV) Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) Chickenpox (varicella)???) ...and perhaps @margarita25 does also as she has done a thread on another disease where folks die because others don't get a vaccine for what is a horrible disease for others.

Question I ask to all who state "I don't get vaccines" -

Did you (general "you", not you as OP) not get the flu vaccine/measles vaccine and others required by law before to protect yourself from sickness

knowing that you can get it and be fine, yet transmit to others and they die? (as in @margarita25 thread on another disease she has posted much on)

Are folks planning on getting COVID .
vaccine for yourself, or are you even considering getting it for herd immunity and loved ones to protect others who are more vulnerable?

I have got the flu vaccines for several years now and they are very good. Regarding measles for children, and whooping cough, when my kids were babies those two vaccines were not recommended for babies with any allergies. Eg. Eggs. My kids had eczema so I knew they had allergies but did not know what so I mentioned that to the nurse. They didnt vaccinate them therefore. I never knew the reason. They did still have diptheria polio and tetanus vax, as did I when younger. When the measles vax was combined with the other two diseases, I don't know if this question was still asked or even relevant. Also, there was a bit of a scare with BSE and the possibility of some vaccines cultured in bovine material. Not sure if anything was ever confirmed at the time. I would def have the CV19 vax an think all vulnerable should get it if they ever come up with one. As they have never yet found a cure for the common cold, I am doubtful they will find one for this.
 
NORTH DAKOTA

RX is the highest of all states at 1.7, and was at 1.75 on March 22nd.
Positivity rate is 3.4 (very good)....below 5.
Tests per 1000 people is 15.4....needs to be 50.
Cases have not flattened but very low deaths (10).
Unfortunately, I think they are poised for an increase in cases...IMO.

It will be interesting to see what officials do in the next couple of weeks.


rt.live

No plan in sight: Test troubles cloud Trump recovery effort

Coronavirus Testing Needs to Triple Before the U.S. Can Reopen, Experts Say

COVID-19/Coronavirus Real Time Updates With Credible Sources in US and Canada | 1Point3Acres

Again, thank you @Henry2326 If they look at these facts carefully (and I do hope they will), they can lower the death rate. However, if the number of cases increases as that R1.75 indicates, they are in for a bumpy ride.
 
My kids ggm has it at a facility in Atlanta. She is in her mid-90’s and seems to be out of the woods. The hardest part for her and her husband - who is also mid 90’s and in the same facility - is the isolation. Their daughter got them an iPad, but it’s not the same. How awful to live your whole long life and at the end be isolated from everyone and everything you love. That alone will probably be the death of a lot of the nursing home residents imo. They will lose their will to live. Jmo
omg... so thinking about your ggm... and your family...........
 
Good morning, everyone! (At least, it's morning for me).

There's some good news on the CoVid research front. While that Stanford study showed that about 3% of people they studied had the antibodies to CoVid, a study in San Francisco (UCSF) that was much broader in terms of population, showed that about 30% of people had the antibodies. The differences in the two studies can be explained due to the two different populations (one suburban, in occupations where social distancing was built in, self-selected and more concerned about CoVid, etc).

Studies from New York are showing similar antibody rates (maybe as high as 40%). This is extremely good news and it means that when we can all get Ab testing, many of us will get good news.

Another fascinating set of research papers ( peer reviewed ) are causing a re-think of how this particular CoVid is killing people. The research seems to show that it acts in a manner to damage blood vessels, in a complex manner that causes microthrombosis, usually in the lungs first. This explains the foot rashes that some have experienced and apparently the multi-organ damage. CoVid-19 may disable the walls of blood vessels from expanding and contracting to push blood through the body, leading to coagulation of the blood in the small vessels first (thrombosis). These studies are based on increased autopsy data, but also a lot of other study.

I cannot understand every detail of these two articles, although most nurses can get most of what they're saying. Most doctors need to be specialists in this field to understand all of it, but these papers left me in awe as to how much doctors need to know to even get a vague handle on this disease:

https://www.esicm.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/902_author_proof.pdf

(peer reviewed, not juried yet)

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.202003-0817LE

(peer reviewed, juried)

First is based on NY data, second on Italy's experience. Interdisciplinary authors, international work. It's very promising. The conclusion is that ventilators should be used only as a last resort, and that anticoagulant therapy is indicated in many hospitalized patients (there's a test they can give prior to administering these drugs to see if they are relatively safe for the patient). I did see that some patients are now getting anticoagulants for CoVid-19.

Two more studies on the hydrochloroquin (Paquinel?) show it doesn't work. (Not surprising, it's built to kill an entirely different kind of organism).

And as to curves and models - algorithms have to be constantly revised. IMHE model never intended to predict past August - so if there are 65,000 Americans dead by August, that's an incredible number, and we haven't even started into season 2 of this. If we look at the various Ab data, it's possible that 15-20% of us may have antibodies by August (let's pray it is higher, but many people live away from hot spots). That means that 80% of us will once again be vulnerable next winter (there's increasing evidence that hot weather kills the virus quickly outdoors, which should surely help and should guide what kinds of places open first - outdoor venues, daytime games, etc - no indoor sports!) It's entirely possible that we will see 40,000 people die next year if we don't find better treatment or a vaccine. Vaccine experts are cautiously optimistic.

By "hot weather" the studies I read meant above 90F. Also, there are conflicting data about humidity. Heat from sunlight combined with other factors outdoors seem to inhibit it (you can't just kill it with 90F heat, although oddly, it would seem to slow its rate of reproduction and thereby lower the amount of viral load).

One last thing: a major possible vector comes from a study of heating/AC ducts in the San Francisco area. Only one restaurant studied, but its vents were rife with Coronavirus. The system was being used for air circulation, not heating. Further studies needed, but it does show a possible vector for many nursing homes...

Such great info. thanks.
 
I was just going to ask the same? If it's Wetherspoons pubs they've been shut for three weeks.

But they resisted and didn't shut immediately when asked, which is the point. And now, their supporters are spilling out into the streets - not protesting (because it's Britain) but instead defying quarantine and clapping - in FAR greater numbers than the people in Michigan.

And UK news likes to show Michigan - and India - and New York - but not London. The Guardian is keeping perspective, but Brits are pouring onto the streets for those clapping things and still going to pubs (according to what they're posting online).

The increase in cases over the past 10 days are related to the resistance of the Spoons crowd and not social distancing. There is really no other way to transmit this disease except to go out in public. Unknowing, asymptomatic transmitters are the problem, in terms of opening up gradually.

The rest of us should be thinking about how to cope, since it's clear that every place except for a few will be "opening up" in the next little while.
 
Sounds like a lot of deaths in Belgium are elderly in retirement homes.
As it is in rural area very near a population dense area. Some very well run senior communities are getting hit hard. It is population dense... and I find in my area people think we aren’t in the city so we are safer....per capita we are “winning”
 
I don't know about violent. Maybe. But there will certainly be some significant civil disobediance if things don't start easing up in the next two weeks. imo, I think that's why we're seeing some states make ever so slight adjustments already. They hope to appease in baby steps. jmo

It will be interesting to see what happens now that a lot of the protestors don't have to or can't go to work every day.

Great post. Businesses have to worry about liability. Not just government. And people aren't idiots, they're not going to rush out to crowded movie theaters or restaurants. So, jobs will be lost regardless of government actions.

I do think we'll see a lot of non-essential, out-of-work people in the streets, and who knows where that will go. Baby step approach is being tried in cities around California (businesses with 10 or fewer workers may reopen in some places - and for some places, that's going to be a real boon). The only restaurant we ever go to is doing business gangbusters (take out only) and hired new employees.

There are lots of jobs in many places, just not the job a person just got furloughed from.
 
Going forward, there has got to be a new and safer protocol for nursing homes and seniors' residences.We don't see stats from influenza, but I imagine there would be similar results. People are bringing disease into nursing homes that the residents can't survive.

I'm interesting in hearing about any new protocols that are coming forward. This seems to be such a widespread problem that few countries are ahead of the game. Is there a country anywhere that is doing well in this regard?

They could start with requiring Hepa Filters (high quality) in their ventilation systems. The difference in price between a regular filter and a Hepa Filter is about $2000-5000 a year for most larger buildings. Environmental control companies come in and fit new filters, then the business has to continue to change them out. THey should be inspected and they should be mandated to have them.

But this is not the kind of thing that the federal government usually does, and it is certainly antithetical to everything regulatory that the current administration favors. So it has to be cities, counties and states that enact those requirements.

Which is actually EASIER to do and people should go to their City Councils and demand it (by Zoom if need be) But instead, some people just demand we "reopen" everything with no changes.

If those same people would go to their City Councils, County Boards and State Legislators and focus on each needed change individually, they would be helpful. Instead of hindering the entire recovery from this.

That one change (plus mandated testing for the employees - and temperature checks for employees) would change the situation dramatically. Then...a reduction in beds per facility (that means less profit though - and you know how some people hate that).
 
As to people aren’t idiots...had to go to a local “general” store to get canned goods and stuff I can’t buy from local farm and I spent the entire time staying from one older gentleman. I finally said something and he responded by saying he is fine. He seemed shocked when I asked how he knew I was!
 
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