Crime scene staging?

[Holdontoyourhat]

Since my "staging" thread went down the toilet I thought continuing on this one.

Since we agree that we're dealing with a staging.....I think I'd tend to believe more that...

A Ramsey staged a brutal child murder to appear as a kidnapping for ransom. The ruse was directed at the police, and lasted for several hours.

A Ramsey left a long ransom note in a conspicuous place, to be found by police before they found JBR. She was left in a remote corner of the basement.


Don't you think it's more............credible?Since there's no evidence that an intruder wrote that note as part of a staging,but experts say PR wrote it?

You're right. Experts say PR wrote it. Now lets study what it takes to be right: two or more people who get paid to do that stuff said so.

Experts were not able to conclude that PR wrote the note. Thats right too.

Who is more right? You or me?

BPD made an effort to match PR's handwriting to that of the ransom note. The effort even included consulting with the US Secret Service. The effort failed. LE handwriting analysis has attempted and succeeded on many other cases, but not this one. Fundamentally, then, their effort to link PR to the ransom note failed despite the length of the ransom note, just slightly longer than a signature, which increased the chances for success if PR were truely its author. Had there been a positive match, there would've been an arrest.

 

[madeleine]

I could say the same about the R's experts.
Maybe all of them (analysis of the rn) are BS.Maybe the rn is BS.I've said it before.Even if IDI,the RN is part of a staging.I don't buy a single word of it.
So it's either a R wrote it or our intruder is someone VERY close to the family.(would make sense why he knows so much,bonus,etc and why he bothered writing it in the first place,revenge,divert attention,etc)


moo

 

[BBB167893]

Had there been a positive match, there would've been an arrest.

I'm not so sure of that. As ADA Hofstrom said, "so what if she wrote it? It doesn't prove she killed her kid. It just proves she wrote it."

One more thing:

LE handwriting analysis has attempted and succeeded on many other cases, but not this one

You forget one important thing: a lot of those cases happened BEFORE the judge in the Timothy McVeigh case ruled handwriting analysis unreliable. An incident which the DA was well aware of, BTW. A lot of people aren't aware of the wide-reaching effects that ruling had.

 

[madeleine]

The only thing that makes sense re the rn is that I see 2 separate parts.

1,

"Mr. Ramsey.
2. Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent
3. a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness
4. but not the country that it serves. At this time we have
5. your daughter in our posession. She is safe and unharmed and
6. if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
7. the letter.

8. You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be
9. in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure
10. that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get
11. home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
12. between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The
13. delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
16. delivery pickup of your daughter.

17. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
18. execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
19. for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
20. do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
21. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
22. etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
23. talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she
24. dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
25. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she
26. dies. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar
27. with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99%
28. chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
29. our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
30. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
31. authorities.


2,

Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
32. fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
33. underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
34. It is up to you now John!
35. Victory!
36. S.B.T.C."






The same handwriting,but 2 diff topics(2 diff people?)

moo

 

[Maikai]

The only thing that makes sense re the rn is that I see 2 separate parts.

2,

Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
32. fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
33. underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
34. It is up to you now John!
35. Victory!
36. S.B.T.C."






The same handwriting,but 2 diff topics(2 diff people?)

moo

I agree with you. The first part is instructions, and rather unemotional. The last part is more sarcastic. Either a diiferent person...or written at a different time...or adlibbed at the last minute.

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Boulder Police Interview(John Ramsey)
April 30, 1997

LE: But with that said John, let me say this. You said on CNN we're not a big department, these things don't happen every day everywhere. So we defer experience as well, and we go to the guys at the FBI and say help us, you know you're the experts in this thing. And just let me throw my concern out and you don't have to respond, and John, certainly I'm not pointing a finger at you. But the FBI, these guys who do it everyday, say Steve, there were clearly steps taken in this case to make this look like something it wasn't. This is how it happens in the movies, it is not how it happens in real life. And they said all that was done, was done and all that was made, was made to look like something that wasn't there. And one theory, at least, is that something happened in the house that may have been accidental that turned to panic that turned to cover-up.

Sorry to those that have been following this case for so long. I am just getting into really looking at the docs and these statements(interviews of) the Ramsey's are all new to me.

...jmo...I:dance:WS

 

[BBB167893]

Hello WS

Boulder Police Interview(John Ramsey)
April 30, 1997

LE: But with that said John, let me say this. You said on CNN we're not a big department, these things don't happen every day everywhere. So we defer experience as well, and we go to the guys at the FBI and say help us, you know you're the experts in this thing. And just let me throw my concern out and you don't have to respond, and John, certainly I'm not pointing a finger at you. But the FBI, these guys who do it everyday, say Steve, there were clearly steps taken in this case to make this look like something it wasn't. This is how it happens in the movies, it is not how it happens in real life. And they said all that was done, was done and all that was made, was made to look like something that wasn't there. And one theory, at least, is that something happened in the house that may have been accidental that turned to panic that turned to cover-up.

Sorry to those that have been following this case for so long. I am just getting into really looking at the docs and these statements(interviews of) the Ramsey's are all new to me.

...jmo...I:dance:WS

Please, don't apologize! I think everyone should reread that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I disagree that you are accepting someone else's premise by answering a question. I will say that when a poster makes it clear that they truly believe a Ramsey is not responsible then refuses to answer questions directed at them pertaining to evidence that does not support their theory, it makes for a truly awful discussion board - because there is no discussion. And that goes for RDI's too.

That said - thanks for answering.

I thought the Ramseys left for the White's MUCH later than midday. And wasn't Patsy wearing the jacket that day? And if the perp was wearing Patsy's jacket why wasn't his DNA / fibers found in it? Patsy never noticed her jacket had been worn?

I have to say, it sounds a bit far fetched.

This is from 10-13-2005, back when DNA found in clothing apparently would've had some weight with RDI-believers?

Whahapen?

Here in 2010 we've got matching DNA from an unknown male all over the place. There is a weakness to the RDI case and that weakness is evident in the media and in test results.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why can't an intruder simply wear PR's jacket? It makes neighbors or even JBR believe its PR and not some intruder.

Seems to me it makes a lot of sense that an intruder would put on the jacket, but not to spread fibers around. In the same way burglars commonly impersonate workers. This is neither impossible nor unusual.

 

[BBB167893]

Why can't an intruder simply wear PR's jacket? It makes neighbors or even JBR believe its PR and not some intruder.

1) He'd have to sneak up into PR's room to get it, put it on, then bring it back when he was done. Why not just attack JB and get out of there?

2) How would it fool JB? I'm pretty sure she knew what her mother looked like.

3) He only thinks about fooling the neighbors AFTER he's supposedly spent hours traipsing through the house at will?

Seems to me it makes a lot of sense that an intruder would put on the jacket, but not to spread fibers around. In the same way burglars commonly impersonate workers. This is neither impossible nor unusual.

I'm not sure that comparison is a particularly good one, HOTYH.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

1) He'd have to sneak up into PR's room to get it, put it on, then bring it back when he was done. Why not just attack JB and get out of there?

You don't know the placement/movement of PR's jacket between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM.

2) How would it fool JB? I'm pretty sure she knew what her mother looked like.

If the perp picked up JBR then all she would see is the jacket.

3) He only thinks about fooling the neighbors AFTER he's supposedly spent hours traipsing through the house at will?

Neighbors looking thru a window at night can see into a house easily even in low light. Its not so easy in daytime.


I'm not sure that comparison is a particularly good one, HOTYH.

Good enough. PR doesn't have exclusive access to her jacket. Anybody can do anything with it.

Besides, you can't even prove fibers that match PR's jacket were entwined in the cord or found in the paint tote. You have no published photos, lab results, or testimony from a fiber expert to this effect.

 

[BBB167893]

You don't know the placement/movement of PR's jacket between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM.

It's not a big leap of imagination.

Neighbors looking thru a window at night can see into a house easily even in low light. Its not so easy in daytime.

I could be wrong, but doesn't the sun set early in December?

Good enough. PR doesn't have exclusive access to her jacket. Anybody can do anything with it.

Even IF that's true (and that's one big if), WHY?

Besides, you can't even prove fibers that match PR's jacket were entwined in the cord or found in the paint tote. You have no published photos, lab results, or testimony from a fiber expert to this effect.

I have PR's statements. I reckon that'll do for now.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's not a big leap of imagination.
Its no secret that imagination is all you've got.


I could be wrong, but doesn't the sun set early in December?
Dusk lasts a long time up there.


Even IF that's true (and that's one big if), WHY? I don't know its true. I wasn't there. Its possible, though. PR's jacket fibers aren't smoking gun.



I have PR's statements. I reckon that'll do for now.

Here I thought the fiber evidence was real.

 

[BBB167893]

Its no secret that imagination is all you've got.

All I've got? Don't you wish, pilgrim.

I don't know its true. I wasn't there. Its possible, though.

Maybe possible. But highly unlikely.

PR's jacket fibers aren't smoking gun.

Even if that's so, no one really denies that they're incriminating.

Here I thought the fiber evidence was real.

And you were right. What made you think otherwise? Everyone has sure TREATED it like it was real!

 

[joeskidbeck]

But more to the point, guys. It's too bad that even if that jacket may have held intruder dna, Patsy, by refusing to turn it over till a year had gone by, destroyed any chance of finding it! Seems like she was her own worst enemy.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But more to the point, guys. It's too bad that even if that jacket may have held intruder dna, Patsy, by refusing to turn it over till a year had gone by, destroyed any chance of finding it! Seems like she was her own worst enemy.

Misconception? DNA hangs around a bit longer than a year. JBR's leggings, for instance.

 

[DeeDee249]

Misconception? DNA hangs around a bit longer than a year. JBR's leggings, for instance.

There's a difference. JB's leggings were taken into evidence the moment they were removed from her body on the autopsy table. They were not laundered or dry cleaned, as Patsy's jacket may have been.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

There's a difference. JB's leggings were taken into evidence the moment they were removed from her body on the autopsy table. They were not laundered or dry cleaned, as Patsy's jacket may have been.

Was PR's jacket laundered or drycleaned?

 

[MurriFlower]

But more to the point, guys. It's too bad that even if that jacket may have held intruder dna, Patsy, by refusing to turn it over till a year had gone by, destroyed any chance of finding it! Seems like she was her own worst enemy.

You are very poorly informed. The fact is that the BPD DID NOT ASK for the clothing they were wearing until a year later!! Quite a significant difference.
The Rs had to look at photos to try to remember and JR sent two black shirts because he didn't know which one it was he had on. Does that sound like people who are 'refusing to turn it over' as you say??

 

[DeeDee249]

Was PR's jacket laundered or drycleaned?

Who knows? But at that point, it COULD have been. The jacket was not taken into evidence that night, as it should have been (another BPD mistake) but the longjohns never left police custody. THAT was my point.