Silver Alert CT - Jennifer Dulos, 50, New Canaan, 24 May 2019 *ARRESTS* #24

[Bulldogs2]

Looking at AW2 again, I notice that FD and MT might not have been too on top of things when prepping their “alibi script”.

AW2 states that MT admitted to LE that she wrote two pages of the “alibi script” one of which was a “log” of phone calls with names, numbers, incoming/outgoing, and duration.
However, EE/PG describes that on 5/28 while FD and MT were discussing their timeline, (ie, making up their alibi script) FD asked EE if EE had called FD the morning of the 24th. (FD had given his phone to the NCPD on 5/25.)

OK, so FD doesn’t have the actual phone to check his call records at that point. Wouldn’t a smart person look up their call record on their account online? Rather than ask EE?
Back in 2017 FD didn't know what “find my phone” was on the iPhone when he called 911 when JD left, so maybe he isn’t really on top of normal features of technology. Every service provider I’ve had for phones allows you to look at your recent call records online. LE hadn’t taken his computer yet so he still had it.
It makes FD look very suspicious to EE to ask if a phone call was made to FD that morning, because that indicates to EE that FD wasn’t with his phone. Which of course is suspicious, as it has now made its way into AW2.
It also suggests that maybe FD didn’t check his call records online and so the alibi script of phone calls that MT wrote up was totally made up by them?? Would they be that stupid? Since they knew that LE had the actual phone and the passcode?
Was FD “just checking” to make sure EEs recollection was good? I just don’t get why he’d ask EE this if FD was basing his alibi script on actual phone calls from his account record. FD would know from the records whether EE had called him or not.
MOO.

I struggle with sometime FD does dumb things and other times wondering if he’s smart. It does raise suspicion to EE asking him that and also ordering EE to take out the seats. I mean did FD think EE would go to the police? Answering my own question, I guess not as it appears he has people afraid of him.

 

[afitzy]

Thanks - glad you read it before I deleted it . Agreed, he must have intended to use EE's older Toyota that wouldn't stand out as much on Albany Ave - plus, you'd think he would want to keep ANY blood further away from his own vehicles.

It makes me wonder, then, why clean it before the trash-dump trip? He had to have known EE was coming to pick it up, then, no, since he did spend that time cleaning it before the Albany run? So it was not a total surprise that EE showed up, perhaps - and while FD tried to dissuade EE from taking his truck back, fortunately EE was insistent (MAJOR good move) about taking it back.

It is interesting FD brought MT to Albany Ave dump run - but we don't know what part she played earlier in the day - or throughout, with the planning, perhaps.

No one would help to clean a truck of what might appear to be blood and perhaps had SOME smell by then, and then likely helps to bag what was likely visibly bloody items - and then sees someone dumping trash along 30 stops (not at home)-- without asking or knowing what it's about. IMO.

Edited for clarity, e.g. "he" -> EE and what part MT played

I've been thinking about the entire reason for the focus on cleaning the truck at the point in time he was doing it. All I can come up with was that EE Ford seats were cloth and if you have ever seen a ripped up cloth car seat you will see that below the cloth is alot of foam and upholstery tape that would simply act like a huge sponge for any fluids that came out of the bag or rug or tarp that JD might have been wrapped in. IMO if FD had any level of blood seepage into the seat, his attempts to clean it and remove all evidence would have been futile. Did FD recognize this and thought swapping out the seats was the only option? If so, then why no do it himself rather than bugging EE endlessly or why not ditch the truck or torch it? Something about the entire exchange surrounding the EE truck just seems off? Was it off because FD was simply out of it and not thinking straight? IDK Its also odd that we don't get the MT side of the EE Truck story yet to know if she tried to intervene to take the truck for a ride so EE couldn't have the truck for the weekend or pull out some engine wires to disable the truck so EE couldn't drive it? IDK, I just see any number of ways that FD and MT could have dealt with the truck so that they could keep it. Maybe stress levels were simply too high and neither FD nor MT could think clearly? IDK.

I know we have been going back and forth on the idea of whether FD wanted to set up EE for the crime or at least cast doubt on EE role in the crime. But, I am truly baffled how someone that knows anything about fabric and/or leather absorption properties wouldn't have simply removed the seat and torched it? I truly dont' think that it ever would have been possible to remove blood evidence from a car seat if the blood had been absorbed into the seat and even hit the foam below. Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

The idea also that a local overpriced car detailing would also have much of an impact on the removal of forensic evidence also shows that either FD wanted to set up EE or he didn't do his research and was simply a lazy and stupid criminal. Any other ideas here as it seems that FD likes complicated plot lines but then doesn't seem to focus on the details so far as I can see. I guess everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and perhaps we have identified just a few more of FDs and MTs?!?! Again, IDK.

IDK the answer to this at all as even someone that understands basic biology would know that the $250 car detailing won't remove everything. To me one of the lessons learned from the CT "woodchipper case" was that small forensic details in a murder matter and if LE are determined and meticulous these details will be found. I'm slightly stunned with what perhaps might be FD arrogance or even ignorance about biological matter.

Still thinking about all this as I'm super curious about what LE found at 80 MS!

MOO

 

[afitzy]

I’ve heard about the poison ivy before but is it a fact that FD had poison ivy on him after the date in question? Like how do we know this. I just missed this I guess.

Yes, there were pictures of the poison ivy in the media I believe but I don't recall if it was in the AW1 (don't think so). But there would have been a full body scan at booking and the report made about the poison ivy and also whether FD was treated for the poison ivy while in jail. MOO

 

[afitzy]

Interesting article on "Five steps to Solving a Murder".
Says every experienced detective follows this same playbook.
How are we WSers doing?
Five Steps to Solving a Murder

Not sure about you but I think WSers are doing GREAT!

Love these 5 step lists to make a case that could cover 10 whiteboards in small print back and front seem solvable!

Lots to think about and many gaps to think about! MOO

 

[Bulldogs2]

I am with you on all this. Oddly FD doesn't seem at all tech saavy but its strange too IMO that if you are doing something as impt as an alibi that you wouldn't search out the correct information. Simply seems either stupid, arrogant or both? IDK. I also wonder if FD simply underestimated the ability of LE to track all the items in the 'alibi scripts' back and double and triple check them? I wonder if FD having experienced no consequences for his many prior lies in Family and Civil courts, just didn't assume the level of focus by LE that is brought to bear in a criminal investigation. IDK. I also wonder if MT wasn't the more 'tech saavy' of the 2 folks involved so far in this crime and perhaps for whatever reason FD didn't want MT looking at his phone records? IDK, but it might be possible that he had other things to hide and we know that he was anxious to keep MT out of certain things (basing this on EE testimony in AW2 where FD asked EE not to report his recollection about MT and the Red Truck).

I also wonder if FD was probing EE memory to see what the potential would be for EE to become an adversary in any eventual proceeding? It seemed clear that FD was trying to 'shape' the EE narrative a bit, especially as it related to MT. My sense is that EE isn't a dope and my guess is that FD knew this and he just wanted to make sure of the EE story in the event they both were hauled in by LE to discuss the situation.

I also sensed that in AW2 that we saw FD trying to 'control' the narrative of both EE and to a certain extent MT. I believe it makes some sense to think that FD had the 'script' all laid out in his head and that the various actors in the script had to have their 'comments approved' so there were no surprises. IMO this was hugely naive of FD and as much as he tries over and over to manipulate people I don't think he really has a solid understanding of people IMO because I'm not sure he can look at anything other than from his own perspective.

Its interesting to see the AW2 commentary to me about EE as the story seems to be told that FD has this idea of how the entire EE truck story will be told and he is attempting to get EE to buy into his version of the story. I thought this aspect of the FD/MT and EE exchange was facinating. I don't think FD was at all compelling and if anything his behavior would raise flags IMO from anyone that had 1/2 a brain and I think EE had more than 1/2 a brain and so every warning bell in his head was going off at a certain point.

I also wonder why FD didn't just come up with some story for EE that his truck had been stolen or perhaps drive the truck in a reservoir or set it on fire someplace else. I think FD was hoping that by keeping the truck and speaking with EE that he could make it seem as if nothing had happened. I simply don't get this assumption and I simply don't get the issue of not taking the time to swap out the seats himself and putting that burden on EE?

Honestly the entire exchange with EE about the truck seemed more than a bit crazy IMO and ditching the truck and simply giving EE a new truck or cash might have been a better option as it looks like the truck is a key piece of evidence against MT and FD.

Why run the risk of LE finding the vehicle you used to drive from Farmington to NC to kill your wife?

Could FD have underestimated LE and EE so signficantly?


MOO

This is kinda hard to wrap around but Maybe FD is SO used to getting his way that he really thinks everything is going to go his way. I’m liking it people in power who think they can get away with anything. FD has had power over spouse, children, employees, courts, etc so maybe he thinks he’s going to get away with it. It may never enter his mind that he won’t. I’m going to give an example and - disclaimer- this does not represent any opinion- “I did not ha e sex with that woman”. An examp,e of when someone had so much power it didn’t even enter their mind that they would get caught let alone consequences.

 

[afitzy]

No it does not. Insanity is an affirmative defense, which means the defendant bears the burden of proving it and the State is never obliged to rebut it. It can be rejected by the jury outright, even if there is no contrary evidence to rebut it.

There are a variety of standards by which to determine whether a person was insane at the time of the offense , but all are quite difficult to establish. Most states now have guilty but insane, so that even if a defendant is acquitted due to insanity, civil commitment proceedings can be instituted by the State.

To succeed an insanity defense, the accused must show that he suffered a mental defect such that he was unable to tell the difference between right and wrong or was unable to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law. "Irresistible impulse" was once used in some states, but not so much anymore.

There is no way Dulos can meet any of those standards, not that I think he would try. He would never allow Pattis to portray him in any but the most flattering light. At this late date, I cannot see how it would be a credible defense anyway.

Dulos is not that special. The prisons are full of people with personality disorders; the use of the term is merely a way to explain a certain set of characteristics and behaviors. Many of these behaviors are commonly seen in violent offenders.

Just wanted to toss in the State of CT info below on insanity defense which as @oceancalling so clearly explains is an affirmative defense.

Insanity Defense

 

[sleuth66]

@happyperson, can't wait to see what you find. GH did a very small update on JD case on youtube (FF to about 42 min and lasts maybe 10 min but has this callin from a viewer in the middle) and showed the google earth for the Reservoir 3 area relative to FD 4Jx house. Its hard to recommend the episode as he had a caller in the middle of it who had a dreams of her deceased mother telling her to look for a suitcase full of valuable jewelery. This was a distraction IMO to the JD discussion.

But, the only reason I mention the GH very brief update was that he made the assumption that FD could cut through dense woods to reduce the distance to Reservoir 3 to roughly 1/2 mile. On google earth, the woods around the reservoir look very dense (as we saw in @thekirbyfamily photos). But, behind 4Jx there appears to be a way to get to the access or maintence roads or some kind of trail that seems to snake towards the actual reservoir. I believe @thekirbyfamily photo showed one picture of this access trail. The GF theory was that FD and possibly MT put the body in parts into backpacks and sunk them into the Reservoir 3.

Its hard to see even in zoom view in Google earth if walking through the woods around the reservoir would be possible as it looks quite dense.

GH other theory was that the JD body was disposed of in water in/around NC during the gap of time that we see in the AW2. I think absent any new info from LE that everything has to be considered so at some point we have to look at the reservoir that he is pointing to on Google Earth. Its hard to tell but it looks like its part of the Stamford Reservoir system.

Take care in your investigations!

(JD case discussion starts around 42 min in and lasts roughly 10 min but unless you want the story of the dream and jewlery suggest hitting mute as it distracted IMO from seeing the terrain behind 4Jx!). GH did manage to capture a great photo of FD side eye in his velvet blazer! So, kudos to GH on that!

Issue I see with GH “disposal near NC” theory is, GH shows North Stamford Reservoir on map.
If FD planned to put the body in N Stamford reservoir (or Laurel), it would have been much quicker to go there straight from Welles Lane, just go down Frogtown and turn L on Ponus Ridge and right on Davenport Ridge then he’s basically there. Google map says 6 minutes.
I know he didn’t want to be cruising around in her Suburban and the red truck with doctored plates would have been safer, but it’s so much closer to go to N. Stamford direct from Welles, rather than go to Waveny to do the body transfer which also has risk (of being seen) and then go to N. Stamford reservoir after that.
If he went the short route direct from Welles then there wouldn’t be blood in the Tacoma. Unless it was small amounts of blood from FDs clothes or cleanup bags but even MT had to concede that based on the evidence LE showed her, JDs body was in the red truck at some point.
So thinking about this, I don’t think he’d add the extra step of body transfer at Lapham if he planned to dump her body at N. Stamford. He’d also not likely bring her shirt and bra back up to Farmington in this case.
So based on this thinking I am leaning that the body headed back to Farmington with him.
MOO.

 

[Bulldogs2]

BBM
Do we know this for sure?
Why would they split the collection?
What am I missing?

That information came from a LE source early in the investigation and was published in MSM outlets.[/QUOTE]
I have a friend whose brother works at that plant and he said everything is incinerated quickly.

 

[afitzy]

I forgot to check but does anyone know if you’re allowed to swim in the reservoirs?

No swimming, no boating. Most reservoirs don't allow public access which is why the Hartford ones are somewhat unique. The FFC and Westchester reservoirs that I am aware of don't allow access to the public.

 

[Bulldogs2]

Yes, there were pictures of the poison ivy in the media I believe but I don't recall if it was in the AW1 (don't think so). But there would have been a full body scan at booking and the report made about the poison ivy and also whether FD was treated for the poison ivy while in jail. MOO

I think I remember this from a few sources- that when he was leaving jail media talked about it and maybe AW1?

 

[Mimi in London]

I do not think anyone was with Dulos in New Canaan because he needed MT to be in Farmington for his alibi to be anchored. AW2 also never says MT was with him in NC that morning, something I believe would be included in that warrant. There has been no indication anyone else was with him from either warrant, even though AW1 specifically puts MT with Dulos on Albany Avenue. Why not say she was with him in New Canaan also - unless LE believes she wasn't there. I also suspect at least some of the captured images have established to LE how many people were in the Tacoma.

I also am skeptical that Jennifer's body was left in New Canaan. Dulos, a guy known to be a speed demon, stayed strictly within the speed limit all the way to Farmington, which leads me to think Jennifer's body was with him. He was very deliberate in that speed. Maybe it was because of the items he still had in the truck from the murder, but I cannot see why he would keep them with him all the way to Farmington if he had already disposed of Jennifer's body. He could have easily stopped along the way to dispose of stuff if he didn't have a body with him.

The thing that bothers me most about the theory that Jennifer was left in a grave in NC, though, is the garbage dump on Albany Avenue. If Dulos had a grave pre-dug in NC, there would be no reason to remove her shirt and bra. He would simply have travelled to the site and buried her body and have been done with it. He didn't do that, though. Instead, he ended up on Albany Avenue. It makes no sense that he would have at least partially removed her clothes, but not have left them in that grave. Why would he create more work for himself that way? That dump is important and leads me to think Jennifer was in that truck on the way back to Farmington.

When I read that LE was in the woods behind Dulos' house, I speculated that it was because of some specific information MT provided LE. Others here believed it may have been the result of repeated tips by people in the community. Of course, then there is Dulos allegedly being seen by a neighbor in the woods with a shovel, but perhaps that is just more of Dulos being Dulos. We don't know why those woods are still being searched, but it has to be in connection with finding Jennifer's body.

In the absence of any evidence to answer the question, I go back to the drains. The AW are silent on this evidence and that is understandable. We will know a lot more once that evidence is released (or we learn there is no such evidence). If Dulos altered her body post-mortem, I think there is a likelihood he intended it to be incinerated, never to be found.

Obviously this is all conjecture on my part. We will know when it is the right time, but that garbage dump is part of the answer.

The separating of the clothes from the body and the garbage dump gives rise to a lot of questions.

However, there is another explanation for FD driving within the speed limit, even if he had already dumped the body.

Being stopped or getting a ticket would blow his ‘I was at JX’ alibi.

Regardless of the multitude other questions, I don’t think that his speed is a factor in determining whether he had the body with him on his journey home.

 

[afitzy]

Issue I see with GH “disposal near NC” theory is, GH shows North Stamford Reservoir on map.
If FD planned to put the body in N Stamford reservoir (or Laurel), it would have been much quicker to go there straight from Welles Lane, just go down Frogtown and turn L on Ponus Ridge and right on Davenport Ridge then he’s basically there. Google map says 6 minutes.
I know he didn’t want to be cruising around in her Suburban and the red truck with doctored plates would have been safer, but it’s so much closer to go to N. Stamford direct from Welles, rather than go to Waveny to do the body transfer which also has risk (of being seen) and then go to N. Stamford reservoir after that.
If he went the short route direct from Welles then there wouldn’t be blood in the Tacoma. Unless it was small amounts of blood from FDs clothes or cleanup bags but even MT had to concede that based on the evidence LE showed her, JDs body was in the red truck at some point.
So thinking about this, I don’t think he’d add the extra step of body transfer at Lapham if he planned to dump her body at N. Stamford. He’d also not likely bring her shirt and bra back up to Farmington in this case.
So based on this thinking I am leaning that the body headed back to Farmington with him.
MOO.

Yes, I am leaning in this exact direction myself. Keep thinking about Lapham and how at certain times there is a steady stream of traffic and so he might have had to wait for the 'all clear'. I still think there was some part of the FD narrative that involved the JD cell phone. I'm trying to connect the dots on the searches we saw in Waveny and the Waveny pond being drained.

I still wonder if FD entered the Waveny path from Lapham and jogged the JD phone to the pond and tossed it in or perhaps ditched it along the path someplace as this is exactly where we saw the electronic sniffer dogs? I could see a 'twist' in the narrative here as being something FD thought would/could throw off LE as they had the JD Suburban and her cell phone in Waveny and that she went missing while on a jog.

I also wonder if FD didn't know the JD schedule for the day so even though he tried to make it seem like perhaps JD jogging had happened that LE could rule out the jogging kidnapping/murder immediately as it didn't fit into the JD schedule for the day? IDK.

Its hard to know how much of JD schedule FD might have known. How did he know to go into the city to see the children? Was he in contact with the nanny, GF or the children themselves or did PERHAPS the GAL tell FD where the children were? So many questions!!!

MOO

 

[MemPat]

I am with you on all this. Oddly FD doesn't seem at all tech saavy but its strange too IMO that if you are doing something as impt as an alibi that you wouldn't search out the correct information. Simply seems either stupid, arrogant or both? IDK. I also wonder if FD simply underestimated the ability of LE to track all the items in the 'alibi scripts' back and double and triple check them? I wonder if FD having experienced no consequences for his many prior lies in Family and Civil courts, just didn't assume the level of focus by LE that is brought to bear in a criminal investigation. IDK. I also wonder if MT wasn't the more 'tech saavy' of the 2 folks involved so far in this crime and perhaps for whatever reason FD didn't want MT looking at his phone records? IDK, but it might be possible that he had other things to hide and we know that he was anxious to keep MT out of certain things (basing this on EE testimony in AW2 where FD asked EE not to report his recollection about MT and the Red Truck).

I also wonder if FD was probing EE memory to see what the potential would be for EE to become an adversary in any eventual proceeding? It seemed clear that FD was trying to 'shape' the EE narrative a bit, especially as it related to MT. My sense is that EE isn't a dope and my guess is that FD knew this and he just wanted to make sure of the EE story in the event they both were hauled in by LE to discuss the situation.

I also sensed that in AW2 that we saw FD trying to 'control' the narrative of both EE and to a certain extent MT. I believe it makes some sense to think that FD had the 'script' all laid out in his head and that the various actors in the script had to have their 'comments approved' so there were no surprises. IMO this was hugely naive of FD and as much as he tries over and over to manipulate people I don't think he really has a solid understanding of people IMO because I'm not sure he can look at anything other than from his own perspective.

Its interesting to see the AW2 commentary to me about EE as the story seems to be told that FD has this idea of how the entire EE truck story will be told and he is attempting to get EE to buy into his version of the story. I thought this aspect of the FD/MT and EE exchange was facinating. I don't think FD was at all compelling and if anything his behavior would raise flags IMO from anyone that had 1/2 a brain and I think EE had more than 1/2 a brain and so every warning bell in his head was going off at a certain point.

I also wonder why FD didn't just come up with some story for EE that his truck had been stolen or perhaps drive the truck in a reservoir or set it on fire someplace else. I think FD was hoping that by keeping the truck and speaking with EE that he could make it seem as if nothing had happened. I simply don't get this assumption and I simply don't get the issue of not taking the time to swap out the seats himself and putting that burden on EE?

Honestly the entire exchange with EE about the truck seemed more than a bit crazy IMO and ditching the truck and simply giving EE a new truck or cash might have been a better option as it looks like the truck is a key piece of evidence against MT and FD.

Why run the risk of LE finding the vehicle you used to drive from Farmington to NC to kill your wife?

Could FD have underestimated LE and EE so signficantly?


MOO

We've joked a lot here about FD and MT being dumb.

People have then pointed out FD's elite education as though that somehow guaranteed high level thinking.

Do many of us not know people who made it through school, either near the top or the bottom of the class and just never had the mental wherewithal to succeed?

FD managed to win the hand of a woman whose family had means and that seems to be his first and last true success. (Jennifer was a woman with her heart set on having children and about to pass the age where that was possible so she was a pretty easy mark for him.)

I don't believe FD or MT is particularly smart but I'm also convinced they play fast and loose with mind-altering drugs.

If one of them had been thinking clearly he/she might have said, "No, that won't fly!" about the workability of the plan but they both seemed to be full speed ahead.

We call them crazy.
It's fairly clear they're dumb.
Maybe we should finally give a little credit to the weed.

 

[Bulldogs2]

A large portion of the garbage collected on Albany Avenue had already been incinerated. A portion of the garbage in those cans had not been picked up, however, because of the holiday collection schedule. Dulos was counting on everything in those cans going to the dump before LE even knew Jennifer was the victim of foul play. He was not counting on how quickly LE would act. If Dulos planned for this evidence to be completely destroyed (which I believe), it seems to me he would throw away everything relating to the murder, including Jennifer, there. This is the reason LE was so interested in MIRA.

BBM
Do we know this for sure?
Why would they split the collection?
What am I missing?[/QUOTE]
I’m confused about the collection too. On holiday weeks when there’s a Monday holiday, garbage pick up is always 1 day off so if your pick up day is Monday , they will pick it up Tuesday . I don’t know what that pick up schedule is. Also didn’t some people on this thread say that part of the disposal route was city pick up and part was private pick up? Dumping on a Friday night would get a pick up of Tuesday because of the holiday weekend. I don’t know much about the private pick up days.

 

[afitzy]

Thank you!

Deercliff hasn't received much focus in part because it hasn't been mentioned in either AW. But also we don't have much information on the property and its even unclear whether FD had the prior house and detached garage or barn raised on the property.

I don't think the property can be dismissed due to its proximity to 4Jx and easy road access. Could the Red Truck have been kept at Deercliff and then FD left from Deercliff on the morning of the 24th? IDK. It might have been safer to leave from Deercliff vs 80 MS if FD knew that the neighbors at 4Jx and 80 MS had security cameras.

We don't know if any of the neighbors on Deercliff have CCTV. I do believe we know that FORE might store its trailers at Deercliff. This is a good sized lot as can be seen on the FORE website description of the property. MOO

 

[Bulldogs2]

FD should have paid more attention to the things ordinary people do like trash pickup schedules changing due to the holidays but I’m glad he didn’t! MOO.

I looked at the Albany ave trash pick up schedule. That area gets picked up on Friday. Due to the holiday though, what was dumped on Friday evening would t get picked up until the next Saturday

 

[Bulldogs2]

What is CT Insider?

Yes I read that I think in patch. He resigned the day FD was arrested

 

[afitzy]

We've joked a lot here about FD and MT being dumb.

People have then pointed out FD's elite education as though that somehow guaranteed high level thinking.

Do many of you not know people who made it through school, either near the top or the bottom of the class and just never had the mental wherewithal to succeed?

FD managed to win the hand of a woman whose family had means and that seems to be his first and last true success. (Jennifer was a woman with her heart set on having children and about to pass the age where that was possible so she was a pretty easy mark for him.)

I don't believe FD or MT is particularly smart but I'm also convinced they play fast and loose with mind-altering drugs.

If one of them had been thinking clearly he/she might have said, "No, that won't fly!" about the workability of the plan but they both seemed to be full speed ahead.

We call them crazy. It's fairly clear they're dumb. Maybe we should finally give a little credit to the weed.

Yes, seeing the AWs has this crime looking like "Dumb and Dumber III" (not sure if there was a II?!).

Its curious to see alot of potential thought on a detail like the JD Suburban at Waveny and the EE truck situation which on so many levels makes little sense.

I also wonder if the stress level of FD and MT simply became unmanageable for them to the point when basic choices couldn't be evaluated? IDK.

Looking back at the footage in the media of FD and MT at 4Jx right before their trip to Litchfield, I do wonder if both of them were just trying to keep it together but inside were shattered because it was so obvious LE was on to them BOTH almost immediately.

I do wonder if in FD's smug mind that he believed that LE would wait and be focused in Waveny and on Welles and that this would give him all the time he needed to dispose of the body and clean up items at his leisure? IDK. I wonder also if FD underestimated LE's ability to multitrack a complex investigation? How surprised was FD and MT when LE showed up at 4Jx?

Could MT have just been agreeing with FD during the days leading up to and shortly after the 24th and not trying to 'reality check' the FD ups and downs as she knew that dealing with him on a rampage would be pointless? IDK.

I don't have much confidence that MT tried to stop FD from doing anything and in fact she seemed like a willing and supportive accomplice. IMO this will mean she goes to prison for a very long time (or this is my personal point of view if its proven to be true!).

MOO

 

[sleuth66]

I've been thinking about the entire reason for the focus on cleaning the truck at the point in time he was doing it. All I can come up with was that EE Ford seats were cloth and if you have ever seen a ripped up cloth car seat you will see that below the cloth is alot of foam and upholstery tape that would simply act like a huge sponge for any fluids that came out of the bag or rug or tarp that JD might have been wrapped in. IMO if FD had any level of blood seepage into the seat, his attempts to clean it and remove all evidence would have been futile. Did FD recognize this and thought swapping out the seats was the only option? If so, then why no do it himself rather than bugging EE endlessly or why not ditch the truck or torch it? Something about the entire exchange surrounding the EE truck just seems off? Was it off because FD was simply out of it and not thinking straight? IDK Its also odd that we don't get the MT side of the EE Truck story yet to know if she tried to intervene to take the truck for a ride so EE couldn't have the truck for the weekend or pull out some engine wires to disable the truck so EE couldn't drive it? IDK, I just see any number of ways that FD and MT could have dealt with the truck so that they could keep it. Maybe stress levels were simply too high and neither FD nor MT could think clearly? IDK.

I know we have been going back and forth on the idea of whether FD wanted to set up EE for the crime or at least cast doubt on EE role in the crime. But, I am truly baffled how someone that knows anything about fabric and/or leather absorption properties wouldn't have simply removed the seat and torched it? I truly dont' think that it ever would have been possible to remove blood evidence from a car seat if the blood had been absorbed into the seat and even hit the foam below. Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

The idea also that a local overpriced car detailing would also have much of an impact on the removal of forensic evidence also shows that either FD wanted to set up EE or he didn't do his research and was simply a lazy and stupid criminal. Any other ideas here as it seems that FD likes complicated plot lines but then doesn't seem to focus on the details so far as I can see. I guess everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and perhaps we have identified just a few more of FDs and MTs?!?! Again, IDK.

IDK the answer to this at all as even someone that understands basic biology would know that the $250 car detailing won't remove everything. To me one of the lessons learned from the CT "woodchipper case" was that small forensic details in a murder matter and if LE are determined and meticulous these details will be found. I'm slightly stunned with what perhaps might be FD arrogance or even ignorance about biological matter.

Still thinking about all this as I'm super curious about what LE found at 80 MS!

MOO

So let’s think through some hypotheses about what’s facing FD here and how he ended up at 4:30pm squabbling with EE about keeping the red truck with its still- bloody passenger seat.

So FD returns from NC to 80MS at 12:22, per AW2. Let’s hypothesize that in the red truck with him he has some bags of cleanup materials from Welles, and JDs body. His phone is still at 4JC.

What does he do? Next time point we have is his phone entering 80MS at 1:37pm. So in that roughly one hour, he’s either returned to 4JC (for lunch according to MT) and brought his phone back to 80MS or he stays at 80MS and MT brings the phone over at 1:37.
If FD goes over to 4JC, what does he do with the body and bags? Has he unloaded them and done what he’s going to do with them in that first hour or so? Leaving after that to return to 4JC for a quick lunch, and then quickly returning to 80MS, leaving the rest of the afternoon for cleaning up the bloody car seat and house? This scenario would give him more time to address the bloody car seat himself, like go get better bleach or cleaning agents from the store or even change out the seats himself.

Or, does FD pull the truck into the garage at 12:22, unload, maybe put in a little work on the body first trying to figure out what to do or getting it set up, then go to 4JC, have a quick lunch (he’s been out since 5:30am or so and he’ll need energy for this next part), get the tools he needs and his phone, and then drive back to 80MS at 1:37. The real work would then begin after 1:37. At 2:31 someone (FD, likely) texts EE about EEs return time. FD has about 2 hours to go.
Maybe at this point he’s done with the body, needs to clean up inside, and he’s realizing the problem with cleaning the car seat so he needs to check on EE arrival time. Maybe he calls MT to come over to 80MS because he has this darn coffee stain he just can’t get out and he needs her help plus they have to “clean up the house” and she needs to bring the black trash bags. Maybe MT is already there and assisting.

Regardless of which scenario, at some point FD (perhaps and MT) realize they can’t get the blood off the seat, so they can’t give the truck back to EE. Maybe at this point, getting closer to pickup time (15:38) FD returns to 4JC (maybe walking/jogging? Extra time in here. Maybe this is the purpose of his jogging demo after his release, to show us that it’s normal for him to jog around 4JC/80MS area.) He leaves his phone at 4JC so EE can’t reach him and then returns back to 80MS to meet up with EE around 4:30. FD drives back in another car (Suburban?) so EE will think FDs gone out waterskiing (FD wouldn’t take the red truck waterskiing) and forgotten about the red truck. This gives us the N+1 cars at 80MS. EE somehow second guesses and goes to 80MS where he finds FD and MT in the driveway.

I lean towards the latter, that FD spent a lot of time doing something bad to the body at 80MS readying it for disposal. That took a lot of the time so FD didn’t have time to change out the seats himself or to really get the materials needed to deal with the stain. So they were panicking about how to try to keep the truck for the weekend (thus the MT key scenario).

MOO.

 

[afitzy]

I am looking for the 15 minute presser that contained all the different agencies and people involved in the investigation. Outside of the MIRA plant. Remember feeling encouraged by it but later thought are they as confident as they appear? Hard to know.

IDK. Suggest searching the media thread as it might be there.

This isn't what you are looking for but it has a good overhead shot of the volume of what was being searched at MIRA.
MIRA search not over