Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[UKGuy]

I've read that he didn't put a light on because he didn't know where the switch was. It wasn't obvious to him, perhaps it was low down or high up. Perhaps during the party the light was already on?

Tortoise,
I'll guess he knew where the light switch was but never bothered with it. Later he rationalizes his decision as we are all prone to do.

Here is how I think FW was operating, he opens the door and looks in, if he can see something unusual then a light is required else its a negative?

On a previous visit similar behavior must surely have played out, two switches to select from and a host to ask?

Here is another way of putting it, FW never said the wine-cellar never had a light, so he never bothered looking for one.

If as you suggest FW does not know where the light switch is located then he must be flying on his previous experience as the R's butler and assuming that the surrounding light will be sufficient, as it was before?

Either way, this is why I think his first account is credible, i.e. no JonBenet.

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[Userid]

I think it's said that JR turned on the light, but he doesn't remember doing it.

Yes, I think you're right -- that makes the most sense as far as FW not being able to find the switch originally (i.e. he wouldn't suddenly know the second time around and/or know the switch on the outside would work for the cellar still). What doesn't make sense -- and why JR conveniently forgets if he flipped it or not -- is why JR would have the foresight to flip the switch before immediately tending to his daughter first. He screams, "My Baby!" before the light is ever turned on. That means he would have had to flip it immediately after screaming that. It wasn't his first/natural instinct to immediately tend to his daughter without first turning the light on. That alone is suspicious and he realizes this when he is questioned, but only after he is questioned about it. He didn't realize it at the time and flipped it rashly.

The normal response for him -- had he not known what happened beforehand -- would have been for him to scream, "My Baby!" and immediately tend to his daughter, even if it was in the dark -- because it certainly wouldn't have been a given that she was dead at that moment, at least to a parent who was unbeknownst prior to the fact. The way her body was wrapped and the fact her head/hands were positioned towards the wall (i.e. away from the limited light of the doorway) drive home the fact even more.

This is just my opinion of course; there's nothing to really substantiate this thought.

 

[UKGuy]

The first time FW searched, he couldn't find the light switch and didn't turn it on; he just opened the door, tried to locate it but couldn't, then shut the door. So, he flipped neither swich the first time he searched by himself. Whether he saw the other light switch on the outside of the cellar room and simply elected not to flip it (under the assumption that it was for the boiler room and not the cellar) is anyone's guess.This is understandable because the switch (inside the cellar room) is in a strange location, lower than a normal light switch, in a spot you wouldn't think it would be.

Now the question is (as Mz. Andventure alluded to): who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light, but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

Userid,
The answer is he did but forgot he knew? Where did you read that FW switched the wine-cellar light on rather than JR.

When FW returned for the third time to the wine-cellar did he switch the light on?

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[Userid]

Tortoise,
I'll guess he knew where the light switch was but never bothered with it. Later he rationalizes his decision as we are all prone to do.

Here is how I think FW was operating, he opens the door and looks in, if he can see something unusual then a light is required else its a negative?

On a previous visit similar behavior must surely have played out, two switches to select from and a host to ask?

Here is another way of putting it, FW never said the wine-cellar never had a light, so he never bothered looking for one.

If as you suggest FW does not know where the light switch is located then he must be flying on his previous experience as the R's butler and assuming that the surrounding light will be sufficient, as it was before?

Either way, this is why I think his first account is credible, i.e. no JonBenet.

.

This isn't accurate.

He looked for the light switch inside the room and couldn't find one. If he had found one, he would have flipped it.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
The answer is he did but forgot he knew? Where did you read that FW switched the wine-cellar light on rather than JR.

When FW retruned for the third time to the wine-cellar did he switch the light on?

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To the bolded: I never said I read that anywhere. Posing a question isn't the same as stating something as fact. This was the question I posed:

Now the question is (as Mz. Andventure alluded to): who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light, but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

 

[UKGuy]

To the bolded: I never said I read that anywhere. Posing a question isn't the same as stating something as fact. This was the question I posed:

Now the question is (as Mz. Andventure alluded to): who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light, but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

Userid,
mmm, well, well you make an implicit assumption in your text, i.e.

who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light,

then you ask

but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

Without a third party in the room, the answer is that the light was already on, since as you say FW didn't know where it was the first time.

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[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
I'll guess he knew where the light switch was but never bothered with it. Later he rationalizes his decision as we are all prone to do.

Here is how I think FW was operating, he opens the door and looks in, if he can see something unusual then a light is required else its a negative?

On a previous visit similar behavior must surely have played out, two switches to select from and a host to ask?

Here is another way of putting it, FW never said the wine-cellar never had a light, so he never bothered looking for one.

If as you suggest FW does not know where the light switch is located then he must be flying on his previous experience as the R's butler and assuming that the surrounding light will be sufficient, as it was before?

Either way, this is why I think his first account is credible, i.e. no JonBenet.

.

Don't forget he's not looking for a body, he's looking for JonBenet alive.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
mmm, well, well you make an implicit assumption in your text, i.e.



then you ask


Without a third party in the room, the answer is that the light was already on, since as you say FW didn't know where it was the first time.

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(To the bolded) Um, no -- I really don't -- hence it's in the form of a question.

To the rest of your post, you misread my question (obviously).

There was never a third party (never said or insinuated there was). When the body was found, either FW or JR turned on the light. As my question was alluding (which went over your head), FW (most likely) couldn't have turned on the light when the body was found, because he didn't know where the light was the first time he searched the room.

 

[UKGuy]

Don't forget he's not looking for a body, he's looking for JonBenet alive.

Tortoise,
Sure, all the more reason to think he was working on the assumption, if there was something to find, simply opening the door would do fine, since it worked the last time he was down there for wine?

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[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Sure, all the more reason to think he was working on the assumption, if there was something to find, simply opening the door would do fine, since it worked the last time he was down there for wine?

.

but we really don't know if when he went for wine, the door was closed (I believe the carpet usually kept it open) and the light off. The light could have been left on from someone getting the first wine supplies ready for the party.

 

[UKGuy]

(To the bolded) Um, no -- I really don't -- hence it's in the form of a question.

To the rest of your post, you misread my question (obviously).

There was never a third party (never said or insinuated there was). When the body was found, either FW or JR turned on the light. As my question was alluding (which went over your head), FW (most likely) couldn't have turned on the light when the body was found, because he didn't know where the light was the first time he searched the room.

Userid,

FW (most likely) couldn't have turned on the light when the body was found, because he didn't know where the light was the first time he searched the room.

How come you consistently arrive at the wrong conclusions, despite having all the data?

So using your own reasoning if JR and FW did not switch the light on, then it must already have been on.

How difficult is that?

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[UKGuy]

but we really don't know if when he went for wine, the door was closed (I believe the carpet usually kept it open) and the light off. The light could have been left on from someone getting the first wine supplies ready for the party.

Tortoise,
Not sure what you are saying here, i.e. the normal mode for the wine-cellar was for the door to be ajar and the light off, just that whenever FW visited the light had been left on, e.g. a special case?

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[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Not sure what you are saying here, i.e. the normal mode for the wine-cellar was for the door to be ajar and the light off, just that whenever FW visited the light had been left on, e.g. a special case?

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during the party because preparations had been made for the party which involved taking things to the basement, and probably getting some wine out of there before people arrived. I think if they didn't specifically close that door, the carpet made it stay open.

 

[Userid]

Userid,

How come you consistently arrive at the wrong conclusions, despite having all the data?

So using your own reasoning if JR and FW did not switch the light on, then it must already have been on.

How difficult is that?

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Wow, what in the world are you smoking? I literally have never said that the light was already on.

Since I need to spell it out for you slowly, I will summarize as easily I can with the hope you get it this time:

The light was always off (until JBR's body was found).

FW couldn't find the light his first time searching.

JR finds JBR and screams. The light was then turned on, and most likely, it was turned on by JR -- not FW, because he couldn't find the light the first time around.

Is this really this complicated?

One of them obviously switched the light on; the question I posed was, which one -- which I answered (JR), based on the reasoning that FW didn't know where the light switch was.

 

[UKGuy]

during the party because preparations had been made for the party which involved taking things to the basement, and probably getting some wine out of there before people arrived. I think if they didn't specifically close that door, the carpet made it stay open.

Tortoise,
Why is that important?

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[UKGuy]

Wow, what in the world are you smoking? I literally have never said that the light was already on.

Since I need to spell it out for you slowly, I will summarize as easily I can with the hope you get it this time:

The light was always off (until JBR's body was found).

FW couldn't find the light his first time searching.

JR finds JBR and screams. The light was then turned on, and most likely, it was turned on by JR -- not FW, because he couldn't find the light the first time around.

Is this really this complicated?

One of them obviously switched the light on; the question I posed was, which one -- which I answered (JR), based on the reasoning that FW didn't know where the light switch was.

Userid,
I'm smoking your logic. You apparently never did a 101 in logic. Its not obvious that one of them switched the light on, if you have to make inferences to which one did it.

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[Userid]

Userid,
I'm smoking your logic. You apparently never did a 101 in logic. Its not obvious that one of them switched the light on, if you have to make inferences to which one did it.

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This is comical:

It's obvious that the light was switched on by one of the two.

It's technically debatable which one of the two switched the light on.

 

[UKGuy]

This is comical:

It's obvious that the light was switched on by one of the two.

It's technically debatable which one of the two switched the light on.

Userid,
Nope, its not obvious. Neither you or me were there.


The light might already have been on, if you think not please explain why so?

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[Userid]

Userid,
Nope, its not obvious. Neither you or me were there.


The light might already have been on, if you think not please explain why so?

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Because it's been well-documented that it was off, and that JR screamed before the light was ever turned on.

This is from acandyrose, but it's also been reported in various places in addition:

"Fleet, who was about 20 feet away, heard John exclaim, "Oh my God, oh my God," and went running to the room where John was standing. As Fleet approached the door, John flipped on the wine cellar light switch. Fleet saw the body of JonBenet laying on the floor.

John said he saw the white blanket on the floor as soon as he opened the door, and when the lights came on he saw his daughter laying on the blanket."


Now, what is your proof (or what makes you think) the light was on before JR entered? It's simply your own mind concocting such a scenario with zero proof to back it up.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Why is that important?

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I must have misunderstood, I thought you asked me a question.