Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[TeaTime]

JR may have told Dr. Phil that he felt that the killer murdered JBR to punish him but he said he didn't believe that in his deposition for the Chris Wolfe case. Seems like he knew that if he said this back then, his claim that Wolfe was a suspect would start to fall apart as he would have to show that Wolfe was trying to punish him personally.

Notably during that deposition, Wolfe's attorney went through the profile of the killer that John Douglas presented to the defense team.

1.) This was done out of personal hatred of JR.
2.) The killer was likely experiencing a lot of stress.
3.) There may have perhaps been a recent traumatic event in a relationship.
4.) There would perhaps be an increase in alcohol or drug consumption.
5.) The killer may have turned to religion.
6.) The killer may have seemed rigid, nervous, preoccupied during casual conversation.
7.) The killer may appear to be cooperative with authorities.
8.) The killer may have quickly constructed an alibi.

JR stated that he couldn't think of anyone who would hate him enough to kill a child. Neither he nor PR were under any stress, that she didn't drink but maybe a glass of wine now and then and he have never seen her inebriated. Their marriage was fine, they were both very religious, they did their best to cooperate with authorities until it was obvious that LE wasn't looking anywhere but at the home for suspects, she exhibited absolutely none of those profile characteristics.

The attorney implied that the RN was the alibi.

JR emphatically denied that the RN looked like PR handwriting, she was too smart to misspell words and denied knowing who wrote under the photos in the album. He said the handwriting was 'sloppy' so many times, I wondered why he protesteth so much.

After looking at both their depositions again, I think JR is telling mostly the truth, calm and cool, until the author of the RN is brought up which is where he becomes animated in denial. I think PR is lying - she could never play poker. Her face tells what she is thinking.

I am going to say that JR didn't know anything until he came upon JBR's body when he went downstairs alone and then it all clicked. He had time to think about what he was witnessing and that is why he blurted out 'it's an inside job' and 'he didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket". Even he was thinking about BR?

Notably, he stated that PR was already in bed when he finished putting the toy together and went upstairs.

I had forgotten that part.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Very interesting, TeaTime. Thanks for the summary. I had also forgotten he said Patsy was in bed before him. I've always wondered what, if anything, he told police that morning about Patsy being asleep when he got in bed that night AND out of bed the next day. I'm pretty sure he's stated in an interview that he woke up before Patsy, which has to be a lie because obviously she never went to bed. If he lied about that from minute one, it puts a dent in the"finding JB midmorning" theory.

However I think Thomas or Kolar would have mentioned if John contradicted himself about that early on (as happened with Patsy saying JB went to bed in the red sweater in police reports), so he must not have been asked, lied immediately even without being fully aware of the situation, or somehow really did think he got out of bed first because Patsy tricked him. I doubt I'll never find the answer to that one, though.

That also goes with my question of why he would go along with the ruse of pretending Burke slept through everything if he didn't know anything was up - why lie to the cops? If he had no reason to suspect familial involvement at that point and hence no reason to worry about Burke saying something incriminating about himself or his parents, so why agree to fool police over something that should seem inconsequential to him? A kid wakes up when his mother screams and runs through his room saying Where's my baby, where's my baby. So what?

I'm just throwing out ideas, not sure where I'm going with this. I lean towards JR being in on it before the 911 call but there are some compelling reasons why I can't rule out the finds her later theory, including his "inside job" comment you mentioned.

I also agree John typically seems more honest than Patsy and I'm not sure if it's because he has less to lie about than she does or if he's just much better at it. John Douglas' quote about JR either being innocent or the best liar he'd ever seen has always stuck with me. And not because I think John might be innocent, of course.

 

[UKGuy]

JR may have told Dr. Phil that he felt that the killer murdered JBR to punish him but he said he didn't believe that in his deposition for the Chris Wolfe case. Seems like he knew that if he said this back then, his claim that Wolfe was a suspect would start to fall apart as he would have to show that Wolfe was trying to punish him personally.

Notably during that deposition, Wolfe's attorney went through the profile of the killer that John Douglas presented to the defense team.

1.) This was done out of personal hatred of JR.
2.) The killer was likely experiencing a lot of stress.
3.) There may have perhaps been a recent traumatic event in a relationship.
4.) There would perhaps be an increase in alcohol or drug consumption.
5.) The killer may have turned to religion.
6.) The killer may have seemed rigid, nervous, preoccupied during casual conversation.
7.) The killer may appear to be cooperative with authorities.
8.) The killer may have quickly constructed an alibi.

JR stated that he couldn't think of anyone who would hate him enough to kill a child. Neither he nor PR were under any stress, that she didn't drink but maybe a glass of wine now and then and he have never seen her inebriated. Their marriage was fine, they were both very religious, they did their best to cooperate with authorities until it was obvious that LE wasn't looking anywhere but at the home for suspects, she exhibited absolutely none of those profile characteristics.

The attorney implied that the RN was the alibi.

JR emphatically denied that the RN looked like PR handwriting, she was too smart to misspell words and denied knowing who wrote under the photos in the album. He said the handwriting was 'sloppy' so many times, I wondered why he protesteth so much.

After looking at both their depositions again, I think JR is telling mostly the truth, calm and cool, until the author of the RN is brought up which is where he becomes animated in denial. I think PR is lying - she could never play poker. Her face tells what she is thinking.

I am going to say that JR didn't know anything until he came upon JBR's body when he went downstairs alone and then it all clicked. He had time to think about what he was witnessing and that is why he blurted out 'it's an inside job' and 'he didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket". Even he was thinking about BR?

Notably, he stated that PR was already in bed when he finished putting the toy together and went upstairs.

I had forgotten that part.

TeaTime,

I am going to say that JR didn't know anything until he came upon JBR's body when he went downstairs alone and then it all clicked. He had time to think about what he was witnessing and that is why he blurted out 'it's an inside job' and 'he didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket". Even he was thinking about BR?

BBM: mmm so JR went from ignorance to full knowledge, nope I do not buy it.

How about trying JR knew most of what happened because he took part in the cover up?

Presumably you discount the 911 call where JR is heard talking to BR, or BR is heard asking JR a question?

Where did JR come across JonBenet's body? Was this in the wine-cellar, the crawl space, the fridge, the samsonite suitcase, or was she sign posted Body Here?

What is it that allowed him to connect BR to JonBenet's body, did he know what Kolar knows so allowing JR a Zen moment of insight, AHA: BR Did It All?

'he didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket".

This is a non sequitur if only because most people reckon PR really killed JonBenet then wrapped her in the blanket, so really at face value JR is simply lying.

What else might you expect in a homicide case where there are only three suspects?

.

 

[Miz Adventure]

They were BOTH lying. I don't think one was more convincing than the other. They wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit them.

The pair of them seem to have their 'act' polished and honed to a T. For me, it is waaay too polished! Both Patsy and John have smug self satisfied demeanours which they probably both thought was the way that innocent people would look and act.

As usual they went over the top in trying to look innocent and in doing so made themselves look as guilty as hell.

What parent would be able to sit there, calm as heck, being made to recall the day their beautiful and cherished child, was brutally murdered in their own home and not break down, or at least shed a genuine tear?

Patsy smiling and moving her swivel chair rom side to side made her seem very relaxed. But then she had her lawyer by her side. She knew she was safe.

Ditto goes for JR.


IMHO - naturally!

 

[AB1]

UKGuy:
"mmm so JR went from ignorance to full knowledge, nope I do not buy it."
Nor me. But for argument's sake, let's say that was the case. So, at some subsequent moment - that unique RN letter q? - the light bulb goes on. That, at least, must have happened. JR chooses to say nothing/develop his lies. Why?

"How about trying JR knew most of what happened because he took part in the cover up?"
That is the only possible conclusion.
Whether it began during the actual killing, or staging, or when the police arrive, or in the following days/weeks/years. JR became part of the cover up.

"Presumably you discount the 911 call where JR is heard talking to BR, or BR is heard asking JR a question?"
In truth, I am not sure what I hear, and feel subconsciously influenced by what others tell me can be heard. Wish I had been able to "listen without prejudice" but the preconceived ideas are planted in my head.

"Where did JR come across JonBenet's body? Was this in the wine-cellar, the crawl space, the fridge, the samsonite suitcase, or was she sign posted Body Here?"
Liver mortis begins 20-30 minutes after death, becomes visually apparent after 2 hours (perhaps quicker in a small child?) and increases until the blood has settled. I have not seen any mention of a disruption to the liver mortis pattern, so the body was placed in that position shortly after death. But I do not rule out the body being moved - perhaps dragged on a blanket/quilt? - from one place to another, if the position had been kept intact.

"What is it that allowed him to connect BR to JonBenet's body, did he know what Kolar knows so allowing JR a Zen moment of insight, AHA: BR Did It All?"
The missing evidential property refs 9KKY and 10KKY?
Evidence rumours:
Bonita papers - BR's Swiss knife
CBS - shows a "lone" cigar
(Why?) Would those items make JR conclude BR "did all"?


" 'he didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket'.


This is a non sequitur if only because most people reckon PR really killed JonBenet then wrapped her in the blanket, so really at face value JR is simply lying."
According to JR, the body was "wrapped" and face uncovered. But the disturbance of the scene means we will never know. JR has been proven to lie so much, either deliberately or by omission, is there any evidential reason why should we trust him on this?


"What else might you expect in a homicide case where there are only three suspects?"
I would expect three solicitors. Even if one suspect was too young to have the legal capacity to establish right and wrong. If they did not consider themselves suspects, I would expect one solicitor acting on behalf of the family, or none at all.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

According to JR, the body was "wrapped" and face uncovered. But the disturbance of the scene means we will never know. JR has been proven to lie so much, either deliberately or by omission, is there any evidential reason why should we trust him on this?

Well, Fleet White was there, presumably he saw it too, or at least saw JR unwrapping her. Why do you think he would lie about her being wrapped up if she wasn't? Most people have taken that as a mistake, wrapping her up like a "papoose" showed the killer cared for her.



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[AB1]

Well, Fleet White was there, presumably he saw it too, or at least saw JR unwrapping her. Why do you think he would lie about her being wrapped up if she wasn't? Most people have taken that as a mistake, wrapping her up like a "papoose" showed the killer cared for her.
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I agree both the wrapping and uncovered face point away from an intruder, suggesting care an intruder killer would not feel. Plus, if an intruder had fetishized the body as per the bound raised arms, it is likely that the body would have been posed.

I always assumed that JR described the scene as it was (even if he knew because he had helped stage it). But there's something about FW's reaction that makes me wonder.
I wish I knew what FW "saw" when JR discovered the body.
To return and look around, wondering how he didn't see the body when he first looked, is completely understandable. (Though from a crime scene management view it should never have been allowed.)
For FW to consider the light, the location of the body - yes. But we are told FW also picked up items. So he was curious not just about the body "suddenly" being there, but also the "objects" at the scene. That does strike me as unusual. Did FW hear JR describe something that didn't fit with what he had witnessed?

 

[Miz Adventure]

I agree both the wrapping and uncovered face point away from an intruder, suggesting care an intruder killer would not feel. Plus, if an intruder had fetishized the body as per the bound raised arms, it is likely that the body would have been posed.

I always assumed that JR described the scene as it was (even if he knew because he had helped stage it). But there's something about FW's reaction that makes me wonder.
I wish I knew what FW "saw" when JR discovered the body.
To return and look around, wondering how he didn't see the body when he first looked, is completely understandable. (Though from a crime scene management view it should never have been allowed.)
For FW to consider the light, the location of the body - yes. But we are told FW also picked up items. So he was curious not just about the body "suddenly" being there, but also the "objects" at the scene. That does strike me as unusual. Did FW hear JR describe something that didn't fit with what he had witnessed?

I think FW must have returned to the cellar room afterwards because he said he picked up the duct tape (and dropped it back onto the blanket). He couldn't have done this at the time JR picked JBR up off the floor because FW raced upstairs straightaway and said "Call an ambulance" - so his return to the cellar room is a bit of a mystery, unless he just wanted to try and understand how he could have missed seeing her the first time he looked (at just after 6am).

I think FW stated that he heard JR cry out just before he opened the cellar door, or maybe as he was opening it, which, if true, is extremely odd.

 

[TeaTime]

Well, I watched the depos and focused on the eye movements and facial micro 'tells' as the parents answered questions. PR's facial expressions and eye movement showed that she was lying while answering and show relief when she got away with it.

JR's facial expressions and eye movement showed that he was remembering the details, not lying. The fact that he remained cool and calm until questioned about he author of the RN and then launched into a defense of PR told me a lot.

PR's body positioning and movements were telling. I took thousands of depos over my career and was schooled in how to detect 'untruths' with the subtle 'tells' that are automatic.

What I didn't get from the depos is Wolfe's attorney grilling either JR or PR on how they concluded that Wolfe was a suspect, the focus of the suit. He seemed more intent on proving that the parents were involved in the murder, rather than their complete lack of any basis to name Wolfe as a suspect. I think he lost direction.

I would have hammered them on the 'profile' created by their own expert as it related to Wolfe (which they wouldn't know because they knew very little about him) among other things that were relevant to the slander and libel suit. "Do you know Mr. Wolfe, personally? How do you know he hated you enough to kill your daughter? Was he stressed? Did he have a stressor in a relationship? Was he a a heavy drinker or drug abuser? Did that change before or after JBR's murder? Did he quickly construct an alibi? Has he recently become religious? Can you give me examples of how he was rigid, preoccupied and nervous in casual conversations? Can you describe his level of cooperation with LE and where and when did that cooperation manifest?" etc.

The answers to all of these questions would have been "no" and "I don't know" so I would follow with "but, these are characteristics of your expert's profile of the killer, correct? So, if you didn't know and do not know that any of these characteristics apply to Mr. Wolfe, can you tell me the things that make you believe he is a suspect?" He and she would have to lay out every lame thought upon which they based their statement of his status as their suspect and I would dismantle each one until there was nothing left. I would not have lost that case.

I've seen one hundred Lin Woods in action. Blustering is fun but meaningless. He backs down when confronted with the law and I would have interrupted the process to confer with the judge when he instructed PR to not answer and she remained silent. It is not up to the lawyer to answer for the client as to whether they will answer a question of not and I would have has the judge make the determination on the issue and wipe the smirk from Wood's face. I would have held his feet to the fire and had him squirming.

 

[BBB167893]

Very interesting, TeaTime. Thanks for the summary. I had also forgotten he said Patsy was in bed before him. I've always wondered what, if anything, he told police that morning about Patsy being asleep when he got in bed that night AND out of bed the next day. I'm pretty sure he's stated in an interview that he woke up before Patsy, which has to be a lie because obviously she never went to bed. If he lied about that from minute one, it puts a dent in the"finding JB midmorning" theory.

However I think Thomas or Kolar would have mentioned if John contradicted himself about that early on (as happened with Patsy saying JB went to bed in the red sweater in police reports), so he must not have been asked, lied immediately even without being fully aware of the situation, or somehow really did think he got out of bed first because Patsy tricked him. I doubt I'll never find the answer to that one, though.

That also goes with my question of why he would go along with the ruse of pretending Burke slept through everything if he didn't know anything was up - why lie to the cops? If he had no reason to suspect familial involvement at that point and hence no reason to worry about Burke saying something incriminating about himself or his parents, so why agree to fool police over something that should seem inconsequential to him? A kid wakes up when his mother screams and runs through his room saying Where's my baby, where's my baby. So what?

I'm just throwing out ideas, not sure where I'm going with this. I lean towards JR being in on it before the 911 call but there are some compelling reasons why I can't rule out the finds her later theory, including his "inside job" comment you mentioned.

I also agree John typically seems more honest than Patsy and I'm not sure if it's because he has less to lie about than she does or if he's just much better at it. John Douglas' quote about JR either being innocent or the best liar he'd ever seen has always stuck with me. And not because I think John might be innocent, of course.

What's that old son lyric? "You can't hide your lyin' eyes?"

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

And SuperDave, John's creepy smile is a thin disguise. Thought by now he'd realize there ain't no way to hide those Ramsey lies.


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[BBB167893]

And SuperDave, John's creepy smile is a thin disguise. Thought by now he'd realize there ain't no way to hide those Ramsey lies.


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That's the one! Whoever it was could have written it with just them in mind!

 

[BBB167893]

Well, I watched the depos and focused on the eye movements and facial micro 'tells' as the parents answered questions. PR's facial expressions and eye movement showed that she was lying while answering and show relief when she got away with it.

JR's facial expressions and eye movement showed that he was remembering the details, not lying. The fact that he remained cool and calm until questioned about he author of the RN and then launched into a defense of PR told me a lot.

PR's body positioning and movements were telling. I took thousands of depos over my career and was schooled in how to detect 'untruths' with the subtle 'tells' that are automatic.

What I didn't get from the depos is Wolfe's attorney grilling either JR or PR on how they concluded that Wolfe was a suspect, the focus of the suit. He seemed more intent on proving that the parents were involved in the murder, rather than their complete lack of any basis to name Wolfe as a suspect. I think he lost direction.

That's giving him all the best of it! RIP

I would have hammered them on the 'profile' created by their own expert as it related to Wolfe (which they wouldn't know because they knew very little about him) among other things that were relevant to the slander and libel suit. "Do you know Mr. Wolfe, personally? How do you know he hated you enough to kill your daughter? Was he stressed? Did he have a stressor in a relationship? Was he a a heavy drinker or drug abuser? Did that change before or after JBR's murder? Did he quickly construct an alibi? Has he recently become religious? Can you give me examples of how he was rigid, preoccupied and nervous in casual conversations? Can you describe his level of cooperation with LE and where and when did that cooperation manifest?" etc.

The answers to all of these questions would have been "no" and "I don't know" so I would follow with "but, these are characteristics of your expert's profile of the killer, correct? So, if you didn't know and do not know that any of these characteristics apply to Mr. Wolfe, can you tell me the things that make you believe he is a suspect?" He and she would have to lay out every lame thought upon which they based their statement of his status as their suspect and I would dismantle each one until there was nothing left. I would not have lost that case.

I've seen one hundred Lin Woods in action. Blustering is fun but meaningless. He backs down when confronted with the law and I would have interrupted the process to confer with the judge when he instructed PR to not answer and she remained silent. It is not up to the lawyer to answer for the client as to whether they will answer a question of not and I would have has the judge make the determination on the issue and wipe the smirk from Wood's face. I would have held his feet to the fire and had him squirming.

I wish it HAD been you, TeaTime. Things may have gone much differently.

 

[singularity]

Notably during that deposition, Wolfe's attorney went through the profile of the killer that John Douglas presented to the defense team.

1.) This was done out of personal hatred of JR.
2.) The killer was likely experiencing a lot of stress.
3.) There may have perhaps been a recent traumatic event in a relationship.
4.) There would perhaps be an increase in alcohol or drug consumption.
5.) The killer may have turned to religion.
6.) The killer may have seemed rigid, nervous, preoccupied during casual conversation.
7.) The killer may appear to be cooperative with authorities.
8.) The killer may have quickly constructed an alibi.
.

Interesting that Douglas couldn't see that by his own profile.... a handful of those listed above point towards someone in the house.


AB1....

According to JR, the body was "wrapped" and face uncovered. But the disturbance of the scene means we will never know. JR has been proven to lie so much, either deliberately or by omission, is there any evidential reason why should we trust him on this?

I don't trust him on that.....especially the whole "papoose" thing. In one of the transcripts, the line is even fed to him. Its hogwash. Her head and arms are exposed, Fleet mentioned touching her foot so how on earth is this a papoose?!? If it is, it's the most bizarrely constructed papoose in recorded history.

Besides, we've heard that both Fleet and John's stories on how her body was found do not match and we know for a fact that out of the two of them, one of them is known to have lied.

Can someone remind me on where the story of the cigar box being under her head originated?

For FW to consider the light, the location of the body - yes. But we are told FW also picked up items. So he was curious not just about the body "suddenly" being there, but also the "objects" at the scene. That does strike me as unusual.

The items were the piece of tape and the cigar box and yes it is unusual....especially considering the fact he had just been told by Arndt not to touch anything and to not go back in there.

In his defense its possible he was in a state of shock but its certainly interesting that he focused on specific items.

Miz Adventure....

I think FW must have returned to the cellar room afterwards because he said he picked up the duct tape (and dropped it back onto the blanket). He couldn't have done this at the time JR picked JBR up off the floor because FW raced upstairs straightaway and said "Call an ambulance" - so his return to the cellar room is a bit of a mystery,

Indeed it is. The whole basement sequence is a mystery within the overall mystery.

I think FW stated that he heard JR cry out just before he opened the cellar door, or maybe as he was opening it, which, if true, is extremely odd.

I'm pretty sure it was before he turned on the light.

 

[Miz Adventure]

JR didn't turn on the light. The light switch was somewhere outside the cellar room.

As there were no windows in the cellar room and JBR's body was not directly in front of the door JR must have had very good night vision to spot her body, especially as FW hadn't seen it earlier when he checked the room.

When JR was asked if he switched the light on he replied (as usual) "I don't remember" which I would take as a "No, I didn't".

 

[Tortoise]

JR didn't turn on the light. The light switch was somewhere outside the cellar room.

As there were no windows in the cellar room and JBR's body was not directly in front of the door JR must have had very good night vision to spot her body, especially as FW hadn't seen it earlier when he checked the room.

When JR was asked if he switched the light on he replied (as usual) "I don't remember" which I would take as a "No, I didn't".

There were two light switches, one on each side, inside the wine cellar.

 

[UKGuy]

There were two light switches, one on each side, inside the wine cellar.

Tortoise,
Which one did FW flip when he looked in the wine-cellar for JonBenet?

Apparently he played butler to the R's when over for dinner by fetching wine from the wine-cellar.

.

 

[Userid]

Tortoise,
Which one did FW flip when he looked in the wine-cellar for JonBenet?

Apparently he played butler to the R's when over for dinner by fetching wine from the wine-cellar.

.

The first time FW searched, he couldn't find the light switch and didn't turn it on; he just opened the door, tried to locate it but couldn't, then shut the door. So, he flipped neither swich the first time he searched by himself. Whether he saw the other light switch on the outside of the cellar room and simply elected not to flip it (under the assumption that it was for the boiler room and not the cellar) is anyone's guess.This is understandable because the switch (inside the cellar room) is in a strange location, lower than a normal light switch, in a spot you wouldn't think it would be.

Now the question is (as Mz. Andventure alluded to): who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light, but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Which one did FW flip when he looked in the wine-cellar for JonBenet?

Apparently he played butler to the R's when over for dinner by fetching wine from the wine-cellar.

.

I've read that he didn't put a light on because he didn't know where the switch was. It wasn't obvious to him, perhaps it was low down or high up. Perhaps during the party the light was already on?

 

[Tortoise]

The first time FW searched, he couldn't find the light switch and didn't turn it on; he just opened the door, tried to locate it but couldn't, then shut the door. This is understandable because the switch (inside the cellar room) is in a strange location, lower than a normal light switch, in a spot you wouldn't think it would be.

Now the question is (as Mz. Andventure alluded to): who turned on the light when JR opened the door and found JBR? I imagine he immediately went to JBR without turning on the light, but how would FW turn on the light if he didn't know where it was the first time?

I think it's said that JR turned on the light, but he doesn't remember doing it.