DC - Savvas Savopoulos, family & Veralicia Figueroa murdered; Daron Wint Arrested #20

[Sparky]

:modstop:

Stop calling each other out on this thread! Enough is enough! If you have a issue with a post, hit the alert button.

Let's move on re: What race JW is and the color of the car.

Thank you.

 

[rkf]

Who provided race information on JW's traffic ticket?
In my locale, LE provides race data on traffic tickets. The citizen doesn't 'check a box' for race. The officer makes a best-guess determination.

Here is some information that explains the general gist of some race reporting requirements for state LE agencies that became effective after 2001 (not recalling specifics of when)

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=252
Collected data from state law enforcement agencies with traffic patrol responsibility about their policies for recording race and ethnicity data for persons in traffic stops.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=252#Methodology
Most agencies (27) relied on their officers' observation of the driver's race or ethnicity as the method of determining the race or ethnicity of the motorist. Officer observation was the exclusive method in 15 State agencies.
Twelve agencies also used information on motorist race or ethnicity from the State Bureau of Motor Vehicles or equivalent agency. This method was used exclusively by two agencies.
Eleven agencies also used information provided orally by the motorist. None of the State agencies used this method alone.
Nine of the State agencies used all three sources (officer observation, motorist self identification, and Bureau of Motor Vehicle data) to determine the driver's race or ethnicity.

Thanks for all the links!

I thought when you give the officer your license, it pulls up your DMV info and I assumed it was in those records. I have no idea if you are asked to check a race box when you apply for a Maryland license, so it seem the officer who gave JW the ticket could have "picked a race" for JW. If race isn't on the driver's license or in the DMV records, what is the point of the officer listing a race? I assumed it was an identifying characteristic like eye or hair color. If there's nothing to match it to, I don't understand why LE would indicate it on a traffic violation ticket.

ETA: Found the following on a 2013 report on race-based stops in Maryland. It doesn't tell us how JW was identified as "white" in his traffic stop, but it seems it's possible it was either the officer's determination or from MVA records.

The demographic information of the driver in the traffic stop was determined using the officer’s observations, and in some cases, supplemented with information from Maryland’s Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA) at the time of the traffic stop. This information included gender, age, and race/ethnicity. For the purposes of this report, race/ethnicity was coded into 5 categories: Caucasian, African American, Asian, Hispanic, and Other. Caucasian refers to individuals that were reported by officers and/or the MVA as White, Arab, Caucasian, and Asiatic Islander. The Other category is comprised of multiple race/ethnicities that cannot be disaggregated due to the categorical disparities between MVA ethnic data and law enforcement ethnic data under TR 25-113. To this end, the results of this report refer to the statute’s guidelines for reporting race/ethnicity and race/ethnicities reported for traffic stops that do not correspond to one of the five categories were coded as other.

http://www.goccp.maryland.gov/msac/documents/TSDReport2014.pdf

 

[al66pine]

Thanks. The car color is only relevant in that it was a paint design meant to stand out and just might have on the block that LE was taping off. That is not a slam. I drove a bright red car when I was in high school because it was splashy. There seems to have been some debate about whether LE might have noticed JW's car before taping it off and why. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kammiemc
Thanks for your reply.
So no development after 'LE prob'ly taped the car in deliberately, because it looked out of place.'

ETA: after reading Mod's post ^, editing further comment about color. Sorry, Sparky.

 

[rkf]

rfk you could be right on many levels. There are so many variables that we may never know. I am not trying to sleuth JW or his GF any more than they already have been by MSM.

The main point I have been trying to make is that it would not serve JW's best interest to collude or participate in harming or killing Mr S or his family. As far as the money, he would have made more from working with Mr. S in the next year or so.

JMO's

I hope we know some of the variables at some point, because I'm nosy. I think his GF should be off-limits. There has been nothing to indicate she was anything but an innocent bystander.

ITA that it would not be in JW's best interest to be involved in the murder of SS, his family and VF regardless of the pay off. We don't know if JW was involved in a plot. If he was, we don't know if he got any money. If he did, we don't know how much. We also don't know how much he would have earned from SS in the next year because we don't know if he and SS intended for it to be more than a temporary job and we don't know if they were both happy with the way things were going at the time of the murders.

 

[rkf]

Arriving at S house after learning of the fire, was JW then seen "leaving the area at some point then returning before speaking with LE"?? Where is the source for that activity?

I have no idea. I wasn't saying he was. My point was whether he stayed at the scene of the fire or left for a few hours, neither one equals subversive behavior. Whether it would be our choice or not, either option could be for legitimate reasons, not criminal ones. JMO.

 

[SeesSeas]

Thanks for all the links!

I thought when you give the officer your license, it pulls up your DMV info and I assumed it was in those records. I have no idea if you are asked to check a race box when you apply for a Maryland license, so it seem the officer who gave JW the ticket could have "picked a race" for JW. If race isn't on the driver's license or in the DMV records, what is the point of the officer listing a race? I assumed it was an identifying characteristic like eye or hair color. If there's nothing to match it to, I don't understand why LE would indicate it on a traffic violation ticket.

ETA: Found the following on a 2013 report on race-based stops in Maryland. It doesn't tell us how JW was identified as "white" in his traffic stop, but it seems it's possible it was either the officer's determination or from MVA records.

The demographic information of the driver in the traffic stop was determined using the officer’s observations, and in some cases, supplemented with information from Maryland’s Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA) at the time of the traffic stop. This information included gender, age, and race/ethnicity. For the purposes of this report, race/ethnicity was coded into 5 categories: Caucasian, African American, Asian, Hispanic, and Other. Caucasian refers to individuals that were reported by officers and/or the MVA as White, Arab, Caucasian, and Asiatic Islander. The Other category is comprised of multiple race/ethnicities that cannot be disaggregated due to the categorical disparities between MVA ethnic data and law enforcement ethnic data under TR 25-113. To this end, the results of this report refer to the statute’s guidelines for reporting race/ethnicity and race/ethnicities reported for traffic stops that do not correspond to one of the five categories were coded as other.

http://www.goccp.maryland.gov/msac/documents/TSDReport2014.pdf

You're welcome for the links!
The reason for listing race on a traffic ticket isn't to verify a 'match' to something else.
The reason for listing race on a traffic ticket is for racial profiling.
Link to 2003 news article explains -
http://www.boston.com/globe/metro/packages/tickets/010703.shtml
Excerpt:

tate officials have known for nearly two years that some police departments are failing to record the race of drivers on all traffic tickets, as required by law to monitor for racial profiling, but the officials have not questioned those police agencies about the missing information.
The failure of police to record the race of all drivers is bound to complicate efforts to monitor racial disparities in traffic stops, according to independent researchers and the law's sponsor. And the missing information could influence whether a department draws the attention of the state attorney general, the American Civil Liberties Union, or private attorneys seeking remedies

 

[kammiemc]

kammiemc
Thanks for your reply.
So no development after 'LE prob'ly taped the car in deliberately, because it looked out of place.'

ETA: after reading Mod's post ^, editing further comment about color. Sorry, Sparky.

There has been more speculation in that LE might have been waiting to talk to JW and knew it was his car, but obviously no more direct info from LE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rkf]

You're welcome for the links!
The reason for listing race on a traffic ticket isn't to verify a 'match' to something else.
The reason for listing race on a traffic ticket is for racial profiling.
Link to 2003 news article explains -
http://www.boston.com/globe/metro/packages/tickets/010703.shtml
Excerpt:

tate officials have known for nearly two years that some police departments are failing to record the race of drivers on all traffic tickets, as required by law to monitor for racial profiling, but the officials have not questioned those police agencies about the missing information.
The failure of police to record the race of all drivers is bound to complicate efforts to monitor racial disparities in traffic stops, according to independent researchers and the law's sponsor. And the missing information could influence whether a department draws the attention of the state attorney general, the American Civil Liberties Union, or private attorneys seeking remedies

Ah. That is the one reason that I could think of that might make sense. But if LE can choose a race for people, when they are racially profiling people, why wouldn't they just call everyone white? I wonder if the DMV records have our "races" on file. It appears some do, but that LE doesn't necessarily match what they "see" to what is on record. Which would appear to create discrepancies on occasion. Anyway, none of this really helps us figure out if JW was afraid to talk to LE because of whatever race box he may or may not have checked. Oh well. I guess we didn't have anything else very edifying to discuss anyway.

 

[SeesSeas]

Ah. That is the one reason that I could think of that might make sense. But if LE can choose a race for people, when they are racially profiling people, why wouldn't they just call everyone white? I wonder if the DMV records have our "races" on file. It appears some do, but that LE doesn't necessarily match what they "see" to what is on record. Which would appear to create discrepancies on occasion. Anyway, none of this really helps us figure out if JW was afraid to talk to LE because of whatever race box he may or may not have checked. Oh well. I guess we didn't have anything else very edifying to discuss anyway.

"But if LE can choose a race for people, when they are racially profiling people, why wouldn't they just call everyone white?"
That would be a lie if LE were to "just call everyone white". Not all LE are liars. Some are liars (and worse), but most LE try to do right. IMO!

 

[AmazonianAbroad]

There has been more speculation in that LE might have been waiting to talk to JW and knew it was his car, but obviously no more direct info from LE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually think they were waiting to find out about the driver or owner or possible stolen status of the car, but still don't necessarily believe they knew right away that JW was a witness/suspect/target/POI/unlucky dolt. I think the car was worth looking at because it was in zoned parking and not local and stood out. So I agree 100% with somebody's wording that LE stood back and waited for him to come to them while they were working the scene.

 

[corundogs]

I actually think they were waiting to find out about the driver or owner or possible stolen status of the car, but still don't necessarily believe they knew right away that JW was a witness/suspect/target/POI/unlucky dolt. I think the car was worth looking at because it was in zoned parking and not local and stood out. So I agree 100% with somebody's wording that LE stood back and waited for him to come to them while they were working the scene.

His car was parked at the very end of a block. Streets in all directions were closed off that far away from the house.

<modsnip>

Why is JW's green BMW any flashier than the red Audi or even bigger, the red Mosler that SS owned and parked on his property? <modsnip>

This is the green BMW in question. This is not NEON green to me. And it doesn't stand out.

 

[kammiemc]

I actually think they were waiting to find out about the driver or owner or possible stolen status of the car, but still don't necessarily believe they knew right away that JW was a witness/suspect/target/POI/unlucky dolt. I think the car was worth looking at because it was in zoned parking and not local and stood out. So I agree 100% with somebody's wording that LE stood back and waited for him to come to them while they were working the scene.

For me, it could go either way, but I tend to think that if they cared enough about the car to purposefully tape it in, they would have run the license plate and figured out it was associated to SS's new assistant. Then they could have tried to find him in the small crowd or just waited for him to approach.

 

[corundogs]

For me, it could go either way, but I tend to think that if they cared enough about the car to purposefully tape it in, they would have run the license plate and figured out it was associated to SS's new assistant. Then they could have tried to find him in the small crowd or just waited for him to approach.

Those things don't happen within an HOUR of such an active crime scene. They just don't.

 

[AmazonianAbroad]

Would the car have looked out of place? If I had a fairy godmother, I'd ask her to do a census of cars that time of day in that neighborhood to see the percentage on the street of older, of out of area plates in zoned parking, that were not commercial vehicles. If of 100 more than 20 fit that description I'd be shocked. I'd guess closer to five. But I'm not there to check and see. My recollection from having walked there regularly is that during zone enforced hours non-local cars were uncommon.

 

[AmazonianAbroad]

For me, it could go either way, but I tend to think that if they cared enough about the car to purposefully tape it in, they would have run the license plate and figured out it was associated to SS's new assistant. Then they could have tried to find him in the small crowd or just waited for him to approach.

I think you very well could be right about running the plates! Quick, easy, cheap to find out if it was stolen or owned by someone with a history of arson or home invasions. I just don't know if I think I'd agree they'd have tied the car to a possibly new, part-time, casual employee who may have worked as household rather than corporate staff.

 

[katydid23]

I would think he would review it because they asserted that the young man who delivered the ransom money lied about his actions several times and he was representing that information into an official doc.

But why would he need to review JW's interview before a PH for DW? It has little bearing on the DW indictment. This is not the trial. I am sure he will review it if DW takes the stand and/or if he needs to discuss him.

 

[jggordo]

I believe that LE may not have gone inside the residence for about an hour while the FD was putting out the fire according to Det. Owens in the PH transcript, as soon as the FD rescued the maid after seeing her stab wounds they would have radioed LE instantly that it was a crime scene. I think the crime scene tape went up quickly. Maybe extended out further later but they knew right away it was more than a house fire. IIRC it was not only local LE but ATF, FBI and SS responded. All those agencies had to be running plates, getting SWs and finding a lot during that one hour period while waiting for FD to free the scene.

JMO's

 

[AmazonianAbroad]

His car was parked at the very end of a block. Streets in all directions were closed off that far away from the house.

<modsnip>

Why is JW's green BMW any flashier than the red Audi or even bigger, the red Mosler that SS owned and parked on his property? <modsnip>

This is the green BMW in question. This is not NEON green to me. And it doesn't stand out.

Context. That's all. Even in the picture, the few other cars are sedate, muted colors. The Mosler is an hyper-affluent enthusiast's toy, so it would fit. To me this isn't about taste or socioeconomic status or subculture, it is about context. There are a number of factors that contribute to that car being noteworthy in that context. Were it someone's job to look around for things that, for any reason, might be out of keeping with what is ordinary, in that context, that car would make the long list of things you'd note at first blush, and want to follow up. At least that's my observation of how things go.

 

[katydid23]

Strongly disagree. If I am the lead detective in a brutal quadruple homicide, I am SURELY going to be interested in what the dude that delivered $40,000 in cash just hours before the murders and fire has to say. In fact, it would be more than pressing; it would be one of my highest priorities.

OF COURSE he is interested in what JW has to say. That's why JW was escorted to the station, interviewed by an experienced homicide investigator and recorded. Thats why his car was taken in and searched and his phone records were studied. After all that, a fact filled report is compiled, and Owens is given a condensed version of the interrogation. He speaks to his investigators and gets his questions answered. If he had any concerns he could have pulled up the interview and watched/listened himself. I don't see what the problem is.

In that quadruple homicide, evidently JW was not one of the lead detectives highest priorities. JMO

 

[AmazonianAbroad]

OF COURSE he is interested in what JW has to say. That's why JW was escorted to the station, interviewed by an experienced homicide investigator and recorded. Thats why his car was taken in and searched and his phone records were studied. After all that, a fact filled report is compiled, and Owens is given a condensed version of the interrogation. He speaks to his investigators and gets his questions answered. If he had any concerns he could have pulled up the interview and watched/listened himself. I don't see what the problem is.

In that quadruple homicide, evidently JW was not one of the lead detectives highest priorities. JMO

You made me laugh. I'm pretty sure they ALWAYS call them "interviews" and not "interrogations." Unless they're at Gitmo.