Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[Cirrus]

There is no trench near the cement area. Even right beneath it, it's still no more than six inches-ish. You can clearly see the bottom (And this is a disgusting pond) for about three-feet from the shoreline. It's maybe ankle-to-mid-calf deep that whole time.

The cement area was the first place I checked to see if the depth looked like one could fall in and drown - but no, even if he'd tumbled in there, he'd have hit the muck and been maybe wrist/ankle deep. His knees or back or whatever (Depending on how he'd fallen) would've been wet, but it would be child's play to stand up and walk back out. Even unconscious, if he'd fallen in face-down, his body wouldn't be completely submerged, which leads me to think he wouldn't float toward the center.

Also, the cement thing is misleading - water NEVER comes in from there. There's a small spot on the OTHER side (like, the complete opposite side of the pond) that has a small trickle. But in the entire time I've been at this school (Three years, now) I've never seen water come into the pond from the cement part.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

That got me, Dark...."Bells toll and tears flow..." They are so accurate in their reporting.

Every single one of the young men we are talking about today are children of parents who dreamed along with them of their futures. They had crossed the barriers of college, grades, and circumstance. They were well on their way to looking forward to graduates, good jobs, and grandchildren only to have it all wiped out by a senseless death. So many of them just taken in their prime and with so many unanswered questions. Hell on earth for any parent, but they are coming in droves. How can that be?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

There is no trench near the cement area. Even right beneath it, it's still no more than six inches-ish. You can clearly see the bottom (And this is a disgusting pond) for about three-feet from the shoreline. It's maybe ankle-to-mid-calf deep that whole time.

The cement area was the first place I checked to see if the depth looked like one could fall in and drown - but no, even if he'd tumbled in there, he'd have hit the muck and been maybe wrist/ankle deep. His knees or back or whatever (Depending on how he'd fallen) would've been wet, but it would be child's play to stand up and walk back out. Even unconscious, if he'd fallen in face-down, his body wouldn't be completely submerged, which leads me to think he wouldn't float toward the center.

Also, the cement thing is misleading - water NEVER comes in from there. There's a small spot on the OTHER side (like, the complete opposite side of the pond) that has a small trickle. But in the entire time I've been at this school (Three years, now) I've never seen water come into the pond from the cement part.

Excellent job. So this should be a "no brainer" for LE. How can they justify their automatic response?!

 

[dark_shadows]

That got me, Dark...."Bells toll and tears flow..." They are so accurate in their reporting.

Every single one of the young men we are talking about today are children of parents who dreamed along with them of their futures. They had crossed the barriers of college, grades, and circumstance. They were well on their way to looking forward to graduates, good jobs, and grandchildren only to have it all wiped out by a senseless death. So many of them just taken in their prime and with so many unanswered questions. Hell on earth for any parent, but they are coming in droves. How can that be?

Thank-you my very dearest SeriouslySearching.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[SuziQ]

Complete list of National and international coverage. Websleuths is on page 5.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/Chris_Jenkins_Link_Report.pdf

 

[SeriouslySearching]

It is so heartbreaking and every parent deserves answers. I understand that some will never come. I also understand that some seek where answers are there, but they don't want to see them. In the case of these young men, I find the answers they have been given are simply not good enough.

 

[shadowraiths]

Piggybacking off this post:

Here is a link for you from 2003.
6 Disappearances: Coincidence Or Serial Killer?
http://www.channel3000.com/news/1973837/detail.html

Part of the article;
Since Halloween, six college-aged men have vanished -- most while walking home alone late at night after drinking at parties or bars.

Officials say the disappearances are not connected, but their families disagree.

From St. John's University west of Minneapolis to Notre Dame in South Bend, Ind., bells toll and tears flow for six young men who've vanished without a trace.

[...]

• Oct. 31: Friends saw the 21-year-old Jenkins, from Racine County, leaving a downtown Minneapolis bar dressed in his Halloween costume. No one's seen him since.
• Nov. 6: 75 miles east, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire student Michael Noll vanished after leaving a party at the Nasty Habit tavern. It was his 22nd birthday.
• Nov. 9: 75 miles west, 20-year-old Josh Guimond disappeared as he headed home from a card party in a dorm at St. John's University.
• Dec. 12: 18-year-old Chad Sharon was going back to the dorm after an off-campus party near Notre Dame. There's been no trace of the northern Wisconsin teenager.
• Dec. 20: 17-year-old Brian Carrick was seen walking into the Johnsburg, Ill., grocery store where he worked. No one saw him walk out.
• Jan. 10: 21-year-old Nathan Herr headed home from Thursday's $10-all-you-can-drink night at a Sheboygan sports bar and vanished without a trace.

Fwiw, and imho, Carrick can be ruled out of the serial killer bit. Since his death appears involve an employee where he worked.

Police also found blood, later identified as from Brian Carrick, on the cooler's outside and inside walls and on boxes that had been thrown in the compactor.

http://boards.aetv.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700004712

http://cbs2chicago.com/northsuburbanbureau/Brian.Carrick.William.2.337589.html

I still cannot help but to wonder if Lilly was in some way involved in the other cases...

While LE claims he was not in the area around the time of Chris' death, he most certainly was fairly close shortly there after (and I suspect longer than that). He was in St. Peters MO (only an 8 hour drive from Minneapolis) in March of 2003. And, since he was charged with harassment, I would argue that he was there well before. Which would have situated him in the vicinity during Jenkins disappearance and later death.

Additionally, take a look at the following cases, they're in approx sixty mile radius of Minneapolis.

NB: Chad Sharon & Nathan Herr excluded due to geographic location, and Brian Carrick excluded as per above linked article regarding his murder.

Christopher Nordby
Missing: November 7, 2001
Last seen: At work
Location: Minneapolis MN
Status: body recovered (February 11, 2002)

Christopher Jenkins:
Missing: October 31, 2002
Last seen: Lone Tree bar
Location: Minneapolis MN
Status: body recovered (February 27, 2003)

Michael Noll
Missing: November 6, 2002
Last seen: Nasty Habit Saloon
Location: Eau Claire
[Eau Claire is approx 1¾ hours E of Minneapolis]
Status: body recoverd (August 19, 2003)

Josh Guimond
Missing: November 09, 2002
Last seen: Leaving his dorm
Location: Collegeville MN
[collegeville is approx 1½ hours NW of Minneapolis]
Status: still missing

Jeremy Stienkeoway
Missing: January 20, 2003
Last seen: at Grand Casino with unidentified man (captured on Casino's video)
Location Hinckley MN
[Hinckley is approx 1½ hours N of Minneapolis]
Status: body recovered (April 10, 2003)​

We know Jenkins wasn't drunk by any stretch of the imagination. Nordby would not have been either. Nor would Guimond. That's 4 out of the 5 who disappeared within three months, and three of the young men disappeared within days of each other. And the last one in the above list (Stienkeoway) raises more than a few interesting questions. The least of which, who was on the video???

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Complete list of National and international coverage. Websleuths is on page 5.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/Chris_Jenkins_Link_Report.pdf

Nice to be mentioned. (They should realize WS is one of the better sites tho. )

 

[SuziQ]

Nice to be mentioned. (They should realize WS is one of the better sites tho. )

They absolutely should!

 

[SuziQ]

Shadow, I can tell you by looking at Chris Jenkin's case file that it appears the only reason Lilly was excluded was based on address verification for his disability checks through SSA. IMO, that doesn't mean he wasn't near Chris' location at the time of his murder.

ETA: I really feel that Lilly is the informant that's giving info to Gannon and Duarte and the drowning fetish site he posted on with Pat Brown is the internet connection here.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree the one should be ruled out as it does appear to be unrelated, Shadow. Yet the problem I am having with Lilly as a suspect means that the other deaths are totally unrelated. Lilly has no viable "following" or relation to gang or group related activities that we are aware of and from what I have read...he doesn't have the intelligence to set it all up. It leaves me at a loss if he is responsible in the deaths that you have outlined.

 

[SuziQ]

I wouldn't assume that Lilly was a "leader" in this. In fact I'm thinking he was low on the totem pole. When a gang is referred to here, IMO, it's not in the traditional gangbanger sense. It's more like a club or group that networks.

Also, the Jenkins family and the PI thought he was a very likely suspect and they are the ones who gave the tip to LE.

 

[shadowraiths]

I agree the one should be ruled out as it does appear to be unrelated, Shadow. Yet the problem I am having with Lilly as a suspect means that the other deaths are totally unrelated. Lilly has no viable "following" or relation to gang or group related activities that we are aware of and from what I have read...he doesn't have the intelligence to set it all up. It leaves me at a loss if he is responsible in the deaths that you have outlined.

I don't see the guy as a master mind, per se. However considering the online community in which he participated (which, from Brown's description included online role-play), I could see someone else picking up on his sick fantasies and deciding to expand upon them. And, if he did kill before his final imprisonment in 2005, it is possible that he shared what he did with others in that scene. People whom, if they believed him, would be less likely to say anything due to their own proclivities. And for those who might find his stories tantalizing, a seed may have been planted.

While I have not looked into that particular inet subculture, I did my master's thesis on the impact of online social networking, the subcultures that sprout from these, and real life crime. The basic gist was that immersive environs seem to be directly correlated to resulting real-life acting out. We saw this played out in the case of Kevin Underwood.

In other words, I agree with Pat Brown's contention:

...the man who had drowned her dozens of times in the ether of the Internet was very capable of doing the same thing in real life. While others may doubt that a serial killer might be at play in La Crosse, Brown is not particularly skeptical, and even if the man who she spent countless hours role-playing in cyber hell is not that killer, he may well be a carbon copy of him.

Only, Lilly may be the original, and those who came after, the carbon copies...

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Granted. Not gang in the sense of gangbangers. I guess I need to study more of this Lilly character because I am envisioning a man that is very sanctimonious, lives off the cuff, and doesn't have the means to be part of such an organized group...mentally or otherwise. I think there is a definite sophistication level with a group that has pulled off such a feat for so many years. A certain intelligence, a framework of collaberation, and a loyalty. To me, he doesn't fit that mold for some reason.

I am very familiar with Kevin Underwood as it took place in our area.

I respect Pat Brown, but I also am having a difficult time believing this is sexual in any way. Yes, I would expect Lilly has some very low life friends that partake in that sort of behavior without a doubt. However, I don't see that sort of behavior being reinacted here.

 

[SuziQ]

More regarding Lilly. And IIRC, Pat Brown was brought in at the request of St. Charles, Mo. LE who had arrested him. They were extremely disturbed by Lilly.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

(snips)
Back in 1990, a man entered a police station in St. Charles, Missouri, and claimed to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer. The police ignored this man, but he finally got the attention of one detective when he shared his detailed fantasies about drowning young men (Conte, 2004). A well-known profiler, Pat Brown, got involved with the case and has been monitoring this man for years. Nicknamed John Doe to avoid revealing his identity, this man reportedly wanders from town to town (McGraw, 2005). Based on her interactions with Doe, Brown believes that it is very possible that Doe, or someone like him, could be behind many of these mysterious drownings (Conte; McGraw).

It is actually pretty easy to build a case around Doe. In addition to telling police that he would go on a drowning spree if not contained and that he fantasized about driving across the country making friends with and picking up 16- to 30-year-old men ("6 College-Age Men," 2003), he was just a block away when Chris Jenkins went missing and claimed to be on a road trip during the time that several of the other victims disappeared (Conte, 2004; McGraw, 2005).

Doe had charges on his record for making sexual advances toward the teenage son of the owner of a funeral home where Doe worked and making death threats to the teenager's entire family (McGraw). The police reports stated, "The defendant is a danger to the community ... because he goes for white males between the ages of 16 and 25 ... and had serial-killer tendencies" (as cited in McGraw).

Brown was able to confirm that Doe experienced sexual gratification from "watching" his victims struggle and die (McGraw).

 

[shadowraiths]

I respect Pat Brown, but I also am having a difficult time believing this is sexual in any way.

Not all fetishes involve overt (or even covert) sexual interaction. The idea that they not only do, but must, is a myth that most of us living in the "vanilla" world tend to believe.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Not all fetishes involve overt (or even covert) sexual interaction. The idea that they not only do, but must, is a myth that most of us living in the "vanilla" world tend to believe.

Ah, see...I have never heard that before. I will have to take your word for that one.

 

[shadowraiths]

Ah, see...I have never heard that before. I will have to take your word for that one.

LOL. Or, for starters, you could look in the DSM-IV TR. ^_~

 

[SeriouslySearching]

More regarding Lilly. And IIRC, Pat Brown was brought in at the request of St. Charles, Mo. LE who had arrested him. They were extremely disturbed by Lilly.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

(snips)
Back in 1990, a man entered a police station in St. Charles, Missouri, and claimed to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer. The police ignored this man, but he finally got the attention of one detective when he shared his detailed fantasies about drowning young men (Conte, 2004). A well-known profiler, Pat Brown, got involved with the case and has been monitoring this man for years. Nicknamed John Doe to avoid revealing his identity, this man reportedly wanders from town to town (McGraw, 2005). Based on her interactions with Doe, Brown believes that it is very possible that Doe, or someone like him, could be behind many of these mysterious drownings (Conte; McGraw).

It is actually pretty easy to build a case around Doe. In addition to telling police that he would go on a drowning spree if not contained and that he fantasized about driving across the country making friends with and picking up 16- to 30-year-old men ("6 College-Age Men," 2003), he was just a block away when Chris Jenkins went missing and claimed to be on a road trip during the time that several of the other victims disappeared (Conte, 2004; McGraw, 2005).

Doe had charges on his record for making sexual advances toward the teenage son of the owner of a funeral home where Doe worked and making death threats to the teenager's entire family (McGraw). The police reports stated, "The defendant is a danger to the community ... because he goes for white males between the ages of 16 and 25 ... and had serial-killer tendencies" (as cited in McGraw).

Brown was able to confirm that Doe experienced sexual gratification from "watching" his victims struggle and die (McGraw).

Yes, that is enlightening and troubling at the same time.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

LOL. Or, for starters, you could look in the DSM-IV TR. ^_~

LMAO WTH is DSM-IV TR.?