Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4

[ArizonaGiGi]

Josh's dad also said that Josh was missing not only the hoodie but his undershirt. So Josh was wearing an undershirt, a white Union Firefighters T shirt a "South Pole (brand?) black hoodie with skull and crossbones, and a lighter jacket tied around his waist.
When he was found he had the lighter jacket next to his skin with the fire dept. T over the jacket.

I couldn't figure out why they put the T OVER the jacket until I found out it was a UNION FIREFIGHTERS T-shirt.
They wanted to make sure the police saw the Union Firefighters logo. duh

 

[SeriouslySearching]

That could be the message, but for some reason I think that is too blatent. LE would have seen it anyway.

I will have to give this some thought.

 

[ArizonaGiGi]

Blatant it was. I think that was their point.
I was waffling between accident and murder. Up until now.
After hearing about the T-shirt OVER the jacket, I now am convinced it's murder.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

 

[Blink34]

It boggles my mind that Albany PD would close this case as accidental drowning with the clothing and money details here. And after listening to Gannon's podcast on what Szostak would have had to do to accomplish everything Albany PD said is absurd. Breaking through a locked gate, wiping everything clean, etc. etc. That's quite an accomplishment for someone that's been written off as a drunk that accidentally drowned!

In so many of these cases it's the same thing. LE says they were so drunk they fell in a river. But at the same time they were able to have walked blocks to the river, walk across sharp rip rap to the water, and in one case cross a busy eight lane highway.

S
Remind you of any case?? Of course Im being facetious-
The more I see this scenario, the more convinced I am that depending on the area and chain of jurisdiction, its really not that hard to get away with "offing" somebody. So many of us are diligent in our research and study on forensics, theories, crime mapping, profiles, etc.. It's like the murder handbook written by the folks who penned the popular 80's K.I.S.S. Sales methodology, but for murder. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to truly get to the bottom of this is to NOT connect the cases, analyze each one on it's own as a sort of Monday am quarterback, and following that distillation, see what's left.

 

[Blink34]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

Was there anything found in the pockets of the lighter jacket?

 

[DeltaDawn]

I wonder if his body was positioned..arms folded across his chest..in atleast two of the cases Chris Jenkins and Tommy Booth..that was the case. I think there are probably more that were positioned, but we haven't been told that by the detectives or LE.

 

[Blink34]

DD, OT-
heard you were ill- you ok?

In my research, I cannot find where the detectives believe that Tommy was posed. I think it was posted by a family member, but I could not find it

 

[SuziQ]

I wonder if his body was positioned..arms folded across his chest..in atleast two of the cases Chris Jenkins and Tommy Booth..that was the case. I think there are probably more that were positioned, but we haven't been told that by the detectives or LE.

Or oddly dressed. The question is did anyone bother to take the time to look and make notes?

 

[SheerLuck]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

I guess it could mean a lot of things. It could be a way of just taunting Gannon. Maybe there's a killer who wants to be recognized. It could mean there was something sexual involved. And to the skeptics who might blame the victim due to overindulgence and too much alcohol mixed with drugs; it could mean a kid who was so wasted they just didn't know what they were doing

 

[SuziQ]

S
Remind you of any case?? Of course Im being facetious-
The more I see this scenario, the more convinced I am that depending on the area and chain of jurisdiction, its really not that hard to get away with "offing" somebody. So many of us are diligent in our research and study on forensics, theories, crime mapping, profiles, etc.. It's like the murder handbook written by the folks who penned the popular 80's K.I.S.S. Sales methodology, but for murder. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to truly get to the bottom of this is to NOT connect the cases, analyze each one on it's own as a sort of Monday am quarterback, and following that distillation, see what's left.

There is probably so much info out there, if anyone noted it, that we haven't seen. It would mean so much more to us than to LE who immediately wrote the cases off as accidents. I would love to see the autopsy reports for starters.

 

[Blink34]

I guess it could mean a lot of things. It could be a way of just taunting Gannon. Maybe there's a killer who wants to be recognized. It could mean there was something sexual involved. And to the skeptics who might blame the victim due to overindulgence and too much alcohol mixed with drugs; it could mean a kid who was so wasted they just didn't know what they were doing

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

You are right, Blink. Investigating individual cases is the route to go. As a whole, the commonalities will begin to emerge easier and the larger picture will be more clear.

Perhaps Duarte and Gannon have holes in their theories which is the problem with them not being more forthcoming with information. I don't know that I agree with the Professor's theories either, but I do know that we are great on the research front here. Too bad we don't have more access to information gleaned from the actual investigations.

 

[Blink34]

There is probably so much info out there, if anyone noted it, that we haven't seen. It would mean so much more to us than to LE who immediately wrote the cases off as accidents. I would love to see the autopsy reports for starters.

That's a really good thought, anyone want to weigh in on the general availability of autopsy reports of closed cases that are obviously not sealed? Might make sense to assign the research on this by logistics for any volunteers?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I believe that autopsy reports are always public even if the cases are closed. We should be able to obtain those some way. If Rotten.com can get them...we can, too! The problem is having people in that location to be able to obtain them in person. I don't know if they take mail in requests for such.

 

[SheerLuck]

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

Gannon has said that the colorful orange smiley with evil happy man in Iowa from March 2007 was left to taunt him. I think what he meant is the killers are leaving these smiley faces; at least partly to taunt and make fun of the police; be it him or other cops. So I speculated that changing the shirts might also be a joke on the cops; plus a way to yell out to the FBI and to all these cops; that these murders are connected and will continue. My comment about the shirt being linked to something sexual is a simple reference that any clothes being changed; after an abduction and before or after a death; could mean there is something sexual happening to the victims. I don't see these crimes as being sex related, but at this point; I don't think it makes sense to rule anything out. As for my "blame the victim" point: Lots of people who are skeptical of Gannons case; simply blame the victims. So skeptics would say that these kids are so completely disorientated from drugs and booze that they can't even put their clothes on right.

 

[SheerLuck]

No one would put a tee on over a leather jacket. Makes no logical sense and would mean he had to be undressed at least from the waist up at one point. It sounds like the person/persons who redressed him did it on purpose this way...so why?

Another speculative idea about the meaning of the white t-shirt is that it could relate to street gangs. For whatever reason it sounds like the white t-shirt was intended to be noticed. Lots of gangs; including some in Albany; have moved away from blue, red and other colored t-shirts and over to the over sized white T-shirts. White attracts less attention and let's them blend in better. Picture being a cop and looking for a 5 foot 11 inch black man, with a medium build; wearing an oversized white t-shirt and baggy blue jeans.

 

[ArizonaGiGi]

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

imo the msg is directly to the cops. "look what we did in your backyard".

Police and Firefighters are the unsung heroes. The fightersof crime, rescuers of victims, etc etc. I think from a criminals viewpoint Cops and Firefighters are in the same corner so to speak. I think that when the killers found the Union Firefighters T-shirt Josh was wearing they thought..."BONUS" and made sure to make their statement to the cops by putting it on the outside of Josh's jacket. As SL said, it's pretty blatant. I think it couldn't have been any more blatant or 'in your face' to the cops than to have their brethren (firefighters) logo staring the cops in the face when they discovered Josh.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I think it is too blatent. It isn't their style and the reason I don't think it is directed at LE.

 

[SheerLuck]

imo the msg is directly to the cops. "look what we did in your backyard".

That's what I think also. These gangs are committing what they think is a near perfect crime and their laughing at the police by leaving similiar clues in different states. They're confident they'll get away with the crime because they know police hate sharing info with other cops; and that they only care about their own city. In the big picture; they're actually exposing a serious vulnerbility in America's overall defense and I guess that's why Gannon's website is Nationwide Detectives; it's sort of like we need a second FBI.

The podcast of Bill Szostak is confusing. Was the shirt over the jacket a white t-shirt or the firemens shirt?