Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #5

[SheerLuck]

FWIW, from what I understand, Gannon has NOT revealed all the evidence he has uncovered.

So, again the jury is still out on this one.

Just the fact of what was uncovered in Wisconsin this past week, should make all of the involved LE agencies to take at least a second look at their now closed cases.

Wouldn't it be a shame to find out in another 10 years, that Gannon was right all along? That 100's of lives might have been saved if LE had just stopped, looked, reviewed for even one day?

That's all I'm sayin'. Just take a look over the file, make a few contacts, look at a few photos,.................be SURE!

FWIW, there were several of these cases where LE said they didn't see how it could have happened, but it did.

Also, a general question, why doesn't this happen in Seattle, Berkely, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, San Diego? Hypothermia excuse doesn't count, because one is suseptible to that in these other environments.

Just wonderin':waitasec:
fran

Well Fran; if you and your friends here and Gannon turn out to be right; then all you guys are very smart and also very intuitive and deserve all the credit for sensing foul play. It also wuld be one of the most stunning serial murder cases ever. But please explain why Gannon agreed to allow KTSP hold the story for 8 months; from September to late April; when it's these exact 8 months when almost every drowning happened fot the 11 years??? Don't you see how this makes no sense? Why would you warn kids AFTER the 8 month time frame has ended; instead of BEFORE??? Can anyone honestly say this makes any sense? Why hold the story and watch 8 or 9 young men die or go missing from 9/07 to 4/08 and then release it? Ratings sweeps week grab seems very obvious unless someone has any idea that makes any sense

 

[SheerLuck]

FWIW, from what I understand, Gannon has NOT revealed all the evidence he has uncovered.

So, again the jury is still out on this one.

Just the fact of what was uncovered in Wisconsin this past week, should make all of the involved LE agencies to take at least a second look at their now closed cases.

Wouldn't it be a shame to find out in another 10 years, that Gannon was right all along? That 100's of lives might have been saved if LE had just stopped, looked, reviewed for even one day?

That's all I'm sayin'. Just take a look over the file, make a few contacts, look at a few photos,.................be SURE!

FWIW, there were several of these cases where LE said they didn't see how it could have happened, but it did.

Also, a general question, why doesn't this happen in Seattle, Berkely, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, San Diego? Hypothermia excuse doesn't count, because one is suseptible to that in these other environments.

Just wonderin':waitasec:
fran

Accidental drownings do happen in California andwarm weather cities. Georgia has had plenty

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Fran, with the research we have done...other accidental drownings in areas such as in California have definite reasons behind them. Water sports, swimming, scuba diving, boating, camping, etc. There are usually people present to account for it being an accidental drowing. While alcohol also plays a role in some of those, they are not at all like these men who are going missing in the dead of night after a night out with no reason to be around water. There are no accounts of this type of behavior in other areas that I have found either. College age men aren't jumping into the rivers and other bodies of water by the droves fully clothed and wind up dead. Just is not happening in other places.

 

[RR0004]

http://www.rnews.com/Story_2004.cfm?ID=62950&rnews_story_type=18

Gorge Death Ruled Accidentalby Cristina Domingues
Photo courtesy of family.
Published Jul 11, 2008

The Monore County Medical Examiner's office says the death of a man pulled from the Genesee River gorge Tuesday was accidental.

David Jackson's family says the 23-year-old was out Saturday night at the Water Street Music Hall, when he allegedly got into an altercation with security personnel there.

......................more at link..............

PS.............I doubt if this is related. But what this case does show, is there needs to be some behavior prior to the 'drowning' that makes sense. This young man may have dived in the water to get the mace off of him. I'm not familiar with the currents in this river, so it does make an 'accident' a strong possibility here. But.......like I said, there was 'behavior' prior to the incident that led up to this....imho, fran

Ok...now this is my old stomping grounds...the Gorge I'm thinking of is in a State Park. I want to go and see how much info I can get about the location.

 

[RR0004]

FWIW...we've been investigating these deaths long before Gannon's involvement with the media this past spring (though, I could swear I did hear about it a while back in NY news)...bottom line...Gannon is not who is motivating us...we will continue to do what we have been doing...most a lot longer than I have. Yeah WSers!

 

[fran]

I found Websleuths during the Peterson case. It was while the Peterson case was going on, I learned of these mysterious deaths and disappearances and started collecting data. But the point is, for SEVERAL years there have been MANY people TRY to tell LE that there may be a connection to these cases and they have been poopooed!!!!!! NOT RELEVANT!! NO CONNECTION! ........

Gannon was busy investigating the PREVIOUS drownings and disappearances. IIRC, his data did NOT include any of the current victims, until the information came out in the media, and those connected to the individual cases began checking and found a link, ie HAPPY FACE.

So the fact that Gannon was investigating and the media didn't shout it out, was NOT Gannon's fault, IMO. Just like with LE, NO ONE believed him without more proof. Gannon finally got enough to support, in the least, SOME connection with 20 of the 40 he's investigated so far.

I personally feel, more are connected together than what Det. Gannon has found. I believe it's because there is MORE than one PERSON, GROUP involved, but they're involved with each other. {does that make sense?}

I still feel that Josh Guimond's case and Chris Jenkin's case hold the key.

Those senators or congressmen or whoever they were that wrote to the FBI to investigate, should look at the most recent Wisconsin case and use it as an example of the possibility there is one or more 'pervs' out there kidnapping and murdering these young men.

This most recent case SHOULD be a WAKE UP CALL that this can, AND DID happen. What harm is there in investigating these? It's not like it's just one case. It's over 100!!

A PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN NO CRIME IS DETECTED AT ALL!

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

Ok...now this is my old stomping grounds...the Gorge I'm thinking of is in a State Park. I want to go and see how much info I can get about the location.

That would be great RR if you can find something out!

Thanks,
fran

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, RR!! That will be great to get more local information on the area! WTG!

Yes, many of us have been questioning this for a very long time here. These cases came to light long before and we have been working on trying to piece it together before we ever heard of the Detectives. We will continue to work on them...whether the detectives' work is found to be plausible or not.

Fran~ No truer words were ever spoken: "A PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN NO CRIME IS DETECTED AT ALL!"

 

[fran]

Fran, with the research we have done...other accidental drownings in areas such as in California have definite reasons behind them. Water sports, swimming, scuba diving, boating, camping, etc. There are usually people present to account for it being an accidental drowing. While alcohol also plays a role in some of those, they are not at all like these men who are going missing in the dead of night after a night out with no reason to be around water. There are no accounts of this type of behavior in other areas that I have found either. College age men aren't jumping into the rivers and other bodies of water by the droves fully clothed and wind up dead. Just is not happening in other places.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say SS. The cases that have appeared in many other states, have stories behind them. There's witnesses. But these cases, the reason so many are on the list, is because there is NO STORY, other than they were last seen 'alone, drinking, late at night or early morning,' or NOT drinking and STILL end up DROWNED,...........NO REASON for them to even be NEAR the water! What?!.....They're walking from one dorm to the next and decide to go drown themselves?

I have read a number of cases where the students were drunk on campus and they 1. drank too much and died, 2. drank too much and fell over a bannister, 3. over dosed (previous drug use indicated) 4. someone broke into their dorm room to rob, rape, or whatever and killed them, (suspect mostly caught) 5. drank too much and got behind a wheel of a car and crashed.

But it's only in the Great Lakes area, now over to the Eastern Seaboard and down towards the South, these young men are going out drinking and or even NOT drinking and end up in a river, pond, disappear without a trace, often times their car is found,....................NO WITNESS!!

THE ONLY PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN A CRIME HAS NOT BEEN DETECTED

JMHO
fran

PS.......I have five children and three of them attended college. I don't think for one minute that the students in California are any smarter or more street smart than the students on the other side of this Nation. IMO, they can probably drink, glass for glass any one of these victims that are no longer with us. There's water all over the place here, I mentioned them in an earlier post. Yet, they don't suddenly decide to go by themselves, late at night or early morning hour, and drown themselves. It just doesn't happen here!.....fran

PPS......on the River up past Sacramento, every year thousands of college students rent house boats and it becomes one BIG party house. In the past few years, there have been two or so drownings. But the difference is,.........WITNESSES!!!!!!!!

 

[fran]

Accidental drownings do happen in California andwarm weather cities. Georgia has had plenty

Ahhh........but there are witnesses. NO?

fran

PS......IF there's witnesses, they're NOT on the list...fran

 

[fran]

There it is again...another "scuffle" with the security guards as we have seen in a few of these cases already. I wouldn't be so quick to think this is unrelated.

I did think of that SS. But we just don't know too many of the facts yet. It was when I realized he'd been maced that I thought he most likely wasn't connected.

I think I'd have to see if there are any witnesses to him being in the water. That would be a deciding factor on IF the case deserved further scrutiny.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

The reason these are ruled as accidents is that; with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 cases; there's not 1 shred of evidence to suggest anything but an accident. The problem isn't LE or the pathologists; it's alcohol abuse and immaturity. And if you want to bring gender into it; the interesting sidebar to gender is that for whatever reason; women seem to have a smarter instinct and a more natural instinct for sensing the potential danger of walking alone at night and for walking near bodies of water in the winter.

Yeah, in my research of some of the individual colleges, I found SEVERAL female students who died of alcohol poisoning. Especially around their 21st birthday.

I don't think girls are any smarter about walking alone at night, they don't get that far because they're too drunk. Just like LE has said about a few of these cases that the victim had drank too much to drown or too much to have made it to the water.

JMHO
fran

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Yeah, in my research of some of the individual colleges, I found SEVERAL female students who died of alcohol poisoning. Especially around their 21st birthday.

I don't think girls are any smarter about walking alone at night, they don't get that far because they're too drunk. Just like LE has said about a few of these cases that the victim had drank too much to drown or too much to have made it to the water.

JMHO
fran

The difference is that girls aren't being abducted and put into bodies of water like the boys are. They are being killed tho.

I think there are several of the girls' cases in and around Madison, WI that could be connected here. However, their manner of death has been almost like someone was trying to figure out the perfect murder, imo. (The perp/perps have not been caught yet either.) Trying different methods to create perhaps a "perfect" one maybe. Stabbing, shooting, burning, strangulation, etc. have turned up as methods used on various female victims...while their bodies have been found in wooded areas and all except for one or two were out partying when last seen alive. These women were also of the same age frame, physical build, and looks. They also had a connection to the University of Wisconsin either in Madison or other places. There are many factors present in both series of deaths/murders.

 

[SheerLuck]

Also, a general question, why doesn't this happen in Seattle, Berkely, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Santa Barbara, San Diego? Hypothermia excuse doesn't count, because one is suseptible to that in these other environments.

Just wonderin':waitasec:
fran

There are 3 factors that make a drowning much more likely in cold water under 40 degrees as opposed to water above 60 degrees. One is hypothermia, one is is the natural reflex to gasp for air when suddenly plunged in water; which leads to acidentally gulping a bunch of water and the other is something called cold shock. In 35 degree water; it sometimes takes 15 minutes or less for unconsciousness and death to happen. But in 60 degree water it will usually take 2 hours or more for unconsciousness and death to happen because the body temp won't drop nearly as quickly. The loss of strength and coordination is greatly affected by water temperature and alcohol also speeds up the process. So the numbing and loss of control of arms and legs happens much faster in the cold water regions. Here is a link I never posted about Cold Shock and below it is the hypothermia chart

http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/coldwater/Coldwater-2.shtml

and here's link for hypothermia chart(my chart doesn't post clearly here)

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hypothermia.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]If the Water [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Temp. (F) is: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Exhaustion or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Unconsciousness[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Expected Time [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]of Survival is:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]32.5 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Under 15 min.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Under 15 - 45 min[/FONT]
32.5 - 40 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]15 - 30 min.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]30 - 90 min[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]40 - 50[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]30 - 60 min.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 - 3 hours[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]50 - 60[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 - 2 hours[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1 - 6 hours[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]60 - 70[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2 - 7 hours[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]2 - 40 hours[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]70 - 80[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]3 - 12 hours[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]3 - Indefinite[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Over 80[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Indefinite[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Indefinite[/FONT]

 

[fran]

There are 3 factors that make a drowning much more likely in cold water under 40 degrees as opposed to water above 60 degrees. One is hypothermia, one is is the natural reflex to gasp for air when suddenly plunged in water; which leads to acidentally gulping a bunch of water and the other is something called cold shock. In 35 degree water; it sometimes takes 15 minutes or less for unconsciousness and death to happen. But in 60 degree water it will usually take 2 hours or more for unconsciousness and death to happen because the body temp won't drop nearly as quickly. The loss of strength and coordination is greatly affected by water temperature and alcohol also speeds up the process. So the numbing and loss of control of arms and legs happens much faster in the cold water regions. Here is a link I never posted about Cold Shock and below it is the hypothermia chart

The hypothermia excuse doesn't count. IF it was the main factor, then this would be happening in ALL states that have a university or college where there is any body of water and possibly snow. Tahoe, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington State, Idaho and on and on and on.

It's just an 'excuse.' This most recent case {proved} that there are those out there that can and DO take advantage of a person out and about late at night and in the early morning hours that has had too much to drink. Now let's see what LE is going to do about it!

JMHO
fran

PS..........Also, FWIW, there's a NUMBER of these cases where the person wasn't even drinking. Yet, they're still on this list of last seen late at night, early in the morning, they disappeared or drowned.......fran

 

[fran]

The difference is that girls aren't being abducted and put into bodies of water like the boys are. They are being killed tho.

I think there are several of the girls' cases in and around Madison, WI that could be connected here. However, their manner of death has been almost like someone was trying to figure out the perfect murder, imo. (The perp/perps have not been caught yet either.) Trying different methods to create perhaps a "perfect" one maybe. Stabbing, shooting, burning, strangulation, etc. have turned up as methods used on various female victims...while their bodies have been found in wooded areas and all except for one or two were out partying when last seen alive. These women were also of the same age frame, physical build, and looks. They also had a connection to the University of Wisconsin either in Madison or other places. There are many factors present in both series of deaths/murders.

You are right about that, SS. But I haven't noticed a 'trend,' of these, have you?

Many have been solved, local crimes. I haven't seen any where it appears someone is going around different campuses. I may be missing something though. IF so, please direct me and I'll check it out. LOL, later though, my grandsons are here and I think I'll take them down to the beach for a while.

TTL,
fran

PS.....there was a case that came to attention in I believe New Mexico???? Not sure, where the guy was caught and then he was linked (because of various circumstances) to a girl in Oregon a few years prior. I've always wondered if they've been able to trace his movement to see if he was responsible for any others. He had a sexual assault previously going back 20 years! He had ties in Oregon, California, Arizona, Texas, and the state he was caught in......fran

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Kelly Nolan was the last known to have been out at a bar and fitting the physical descriptions of the other women. Her murder remains unsolved. The other murders listed on the thread for the women are also unsolved.

This "trend" was pointed out by the ME working the first few murders of the women in that area at the time. He was quoted as pointing out the similarities of all the cases up until then.

 

[SheerLuck]

Ahhh........but there are witnesses. NO?

fran

PS......IF there's witnesses, they're NOT on the list...fran

Fran; the post I sent in with hypothermia chart doesn't come out right on websleuths page but the link with chart shows the incredible speed difference of death with 35 degree water compared to 60 degree water. With water 35 degrees or less; the body temp can drop 10 degrees within minutes death. With 60 degree or warmer water; the body temp will take 2 hours or longer to drop 10 degrees. Also Fran, the colder the water; the quicker a person's arms and legs go numb and the quicker a person loses any ability to swim. In 35 degree water or colder; this can happen in less than a few minutes; in 60 degree water or warmer in will take a few hours. 2 minutes or less compared to several hours or more explains why so few kids accidentally drown in warm weather states

 

[SheerLuck]

The hypothermia excuse doesn't count. IF it was the main factor, then this would be happening in ALL states that have a university or college where there is any body of water and possibly snow. Tahoe, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington State, Idaho and on and on and on.

It's just an 'excuse.' This most recent case {proved} that there are those out there that can and DO take advantage of a person out and about late at night and in the early morning hours that has had too much to drink. Now let's see what LE is going to do about it!

JMHO
fran

PS..........Also, FWIW, there's a NUMBER of these cases where the person wasn't even drinking. Yet, they're still on this list of last seen late at night, early in the morning, they disappeared or drowned.......fran

On Shadows chart of deaths from drowning, Washington State and Idaho both have a drowning; not sure about Colorado or Utah; although Utah has less drinking by a wide margin than all of America. Statistically; the odds would be that most cold areas of America that have college bars near rivers probably have had an accidental drowing death since 1960. Some might have had several; some might have had just 1; but it looks like the pattern or 3-5 college men dieing from accidental drowning will continue happening every year in cold weather states that have bars near rivers and creeks

 

[SheerLuck]

PS..........Also, FWIW, there's a NUMBER of these cases where the person wasn't even drinking. Yet, they're still on this list of last seen late at night, early in the morning, they disappeared or drowned.......fran

What kids weren't drinking? The footprints capsules has every kid drinking and most had 2 or 3 times the legal limit or more. Every kid Gannon mentioned was drinking quite a bit