GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

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Yeah I see that. Ekstra Bladet has this:
15:35 - The prosecutor's office is currently asking how her panties can fall off. The two are starting to discuss.
"You must ask some women," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Did you notice that her pants also fell off?
"Yes, they pulled off the tights," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Kim's shoes and tights fell off when I lifted her up, says Peter Madsen.

In all other articles where this is mentioned I see the version from Ekstra Bladet. JyskeVestkysten is alone in interpret like that
 
Ok.
We could use it to see what the police need to convict him, or the other way around what they dont have to acquit him.

I already see that they havent found any bone-fragments in the sub. Can you dismember a body without tiny bone-fragments is left?

We don't know if the prosecutor used everything he had. Likely they just revealed enough to secure an extension of the pretrial custody.

I would be very surprised if you can saw a legs, arms, and head from a body without leaving bone (splinters, or microscopic flecks). However, water would have sloshed around while filling the submarine, and again while draining it.

If Peter Madsen dismembered the body inside UC3 Nautilus I'm sure they have found evidence. Seemingly he didn't do much to hide anything inside UC3 Submarine (other than sinking it).
 
Yeah I see that. Ekstra Bladet has this:
15:35 - The prosecutor's office is currently asking how her panties can fall off. The two are starting to discuss.
"You must ask some women," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Did you notice that her pants also fell off?
"Yes, they pulled off the tights," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Kim's shoes and tights fell off when I lifted her up, says Peter Madsen.

In all other articles where this is mentioned I see the version from Ekstra Bladet. JyskeVestkysten is alone in interpret like that

I noticed the discrepancy too. EB's reporting was very hurried and amateurish, but that does not mean they were wrong here. We need access to the actual court transcript.
 
So the clothing from her below the waist could have just floated there? Was there any other clothing recovered or just her underwear?
I am sure that she was wearing .more items of clothing than just her knickers and pantyhose, but only they have been found in the sub.

Strange that the prosecution didn´t ask about her other clothes. Or the hair - and strange that lumps of hair were found.

Apart from the pantyhose and panties,he probably threw her cther clothes and shoes in the ocean.
But why then leave the pantyhose and panties on Nautilus?
 

This article clears up a few things. Primarily it confirms that Peter Madsen decided to change his story after recovery of UC3 Nautilus had begun. If we look at this from the prosecutions point of view, his plan (if he had any) probably didn't take the raising of UC3 Nautilus into account (hence the tights, panties, and other pieces of evidence left inside). At this stage he was probably certain Kim Wall's body wouldn't be found, so he felt no need to mention dismemberment and weighing down. He declares his full corporation and feed them the accident story. When the torso was found he couldn't change his story without completely destroying the image of an innocent giving full corporation.
 
Strange that the prosecution didn´t ask about her other clothes. Or the hair - and strange that lumps of hair were found.

Apart from the pantyhose and panties,he probably threw her cther clothes and shoes in the ocean.
But why then leave the pantyhose and panties on Nautilus?
Maybe he had plans to retrieve them - some killers keep mementos.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
Interesting that Kim Falkenberg, who helped build Nautilus says that an accident with the hatch isn´t that far fetched.
We have been looking at the wrong hatch, which opened all the way. KF says the hatch they exited/tried to exit opened to an angle of 95 to100 degrees.

Here is a photo of the hatch in question (I think?) :

https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand

Doesn´t change the lies and the dismemberment though, which still point to murder in my opinion.
 
Interesting that Kim Falkenberg, who helped build Nautilus says that an accident with the hatch isn´t that far fetched.
We have been looking at the wrong hatch, which opened all the way. KF says the hatch they exited/tried to exit opened to an angle of 95 to100 degrees.

Here is a photo of the hatch in question (I think?) :

https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand

Doesn´t change the lies and the dismemberment though, which still point to murder in my opinion.

Yes, I noticed that earlier. A guilty Peter Madsen would naturally try to construct a story that's both possible and plausible (with the other type of hatch it wasn't really). This new information does not preclude that Peter Madsen actually dropped the hatch on her head to knock her unconscious (this will be impossible to prove, and would be a good murder plan). I still think he thought he had a watertight story (no pun intended), and that the torso messed everything up.
 
Interesting that Kim Falkenberg, who helped build Nautilus says that an accident with the hatch isn´t that far fetched.
We have been looking at the wrong hatch, which opened all the way. KF says the hatch they exited/tried to exit opened to an angle of 95 to100 degrees.

Here is a photo of the hatch in question (I think?) :

https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand

Doesn´t change the lies and the dismemberment though, which still point to murder in my opinion.

I'm with KF, I would not discard the theory of an accident gone terribly wrong so easily.

First, it is possible that this happened, like KF says, and it would IMHO also explain the lumps of hair that were found.

Next PM said he fell asleep, if I read that well. This is not so strange either. When confronted with fear, danger or stress, the body has three options:
flee (nowhere to go in a submarine)
fight (no one to fight against and all other actions are unclear) or
freeze, when the body starts slowing down and switches off the system.

It must have been panic galore when the accident happened. PM is alone in the ship, has no back-up, has nowhere to go and no one to help him. In these circumstances, falling asleep, or something that is perceived as sleep is a way of the body to save the situation, not a lack of interest. This IMHO makes him human and not the Superman or Supercreep as he is being depicted.

I do not think that he planned all this. If he had planned it, he would have made a better plan. You cannot build rockets and leave the part where the rocket comes down after it has gone up. You have to plan for everything. Same with the submarine, you cannot go underwater and see what happens, you have to be reasonably sure that it will function and that you are able to get out in an emergency. That is why PLANNING is at the core of what they do.

Therefore IMHO the option of an accident is not unthinkable, and whatever his state of mind was until that moment, he must have gone completely out of his mind afterwards.
 
2 retired policemen gives their opinion on the case.

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/2017-09-07-ti...adsens-forklaring-plausibel-og-her-halter-den (in danish)

Translated:
Peter Madsen told the court on Tuesday that Kim Wall died in an accident on board the submarine.
On Tuesday, the public got an insight into what happened between 10 and 11 August, when the 30-year-old Swedish journalist Kim Wall lost her life aboard Peter Madsen's submarine.
Peter Madsen says an accident occurred on Nautilus, which led to Kim Wall's death, after which he, in his own words, "buried Kim Wall at sea."
He acknowledged that he had thrown the body of the Swedish journalist Kim Wall aboard the submarine, Nautilus, thus acknowledging his indecent handling of a body, which is one of the conditions for which he is charged.
- Yes, he acknowledges the burying her at sea, his defender Betina Hald Engmark confirms after the hearing.

TV 2 has got Kurt Kragh, former criminal commissioner in the Police Travel Team, and Jan Jarlbæk, who has more than 23 years of police investigation investigating, among other things, the State Police and Europol, to review Peter Madsen's explanations of what happened onboard the submarine.
They assess whether they find plausible explanations based on the information we currently have. Both experts make reservations that they do not know the matter in detail.

All the following points are based on Peter Madsen's explanations at the hearing on Wednesday, September 6th.

Nine explanations from Peter Madsen
01 - Kim Wall was hit by a hatch
Peter Madsen has told that he lost the grip of a 70 kilo heavy hatch when he was on his way up the submarine's tower. He explained that he was slipping because he had wet feet after a dive with the sub. According to Peter Madsen, the blow from the hatch gave Kim Wall a skull fracture that killed her on the spot.
Jan Jarlbæk: Immediately it seems quite plausible. To Peter Madsen's defense, one can argue that if the submarine has just been submerged, the surface may have been slippery. Now maybe a reconstruction is waiting - maybe with Peter Madsen himself, where he wears the same shoes.
Kurt Kragh: In the event of a possible reconstruction, the police will have a submarine expert who can assess whether such an accident can be done at all. Peter Madsen will be asked to describe exactly where her head and hands were located when she was on the way up the submarine's tower.

02 - The submarine lay crooked in the water
According to prosecutor Jacob Buch-Jepsen, Peter Madsen has previously said that the submarine was crooked in the water. He said on Tuesday that it was the waves from a ship that caused the submarine to roll.
Jan Jarlbæk: The assertion that another boat caused a wave at the time when the hatch slammed, the police will be able to investigate via logging data from SOK, the Operational Command of the Sea.
Kurt Kragh: The police will try to make a reconstruction of the incident as far as possible.

03 - Panties and socks slipped at the same time
In the submarine, blood, tufts of hair, tights and a pair of black women's shorts have been found. According to Peter Madsen, both underpants and nylon stockings slipped by itself as he tied a rope over Kim Wall's ankles to pull her body up through the submarine's tower.
Kurt Kragh: Immediately, the explanation is not plausible. A reconstruction must clarify whether it can be done.
Jan Jarlbæk: This claim is therefore difficult for me to be considered plausible. I find it hard to imagine that both tights and panties are sliding off at the same time.

04 - Did not contact the authorities
Peter Madsen admitted in court on Tuesday that he should have contacted the authorities shortly after finding that Kim Wall was dead. He emphasized that he did not act rationally, but instead was "mentally weak and foolish."
Jan Jarlbæk: His explanation is basically plausible. In the case of an accident, Peter Madsen may have lost the overview, but it does not change that he, after healing, could have sailed back to land with Kim Wall's body. For me to see, he hides something. For every minute that goes, he makes matters worse for himself.
Kurt Kragh: It's not unusual for us to see people running away after an accident. What I question, is his subsequent very rational way of thinking on how he gets rid of the body.

05 - Throwed the body into the water
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown the body of Kim Wall overboard. He still refuses to the dismembering. He also refuses to give her the 11 iron pipes found on the torso, but according to police technicians, they are closely matching iron pipes found by a search of his workshop at Refshale Island.
Jan Jarlbæk: Peter Madsen's explanation of a 'funeral at sea' I do not believe.
Kurt Kragh: I totally disregard Peter Madsen's explanations that it is not him who has dismembered the body. For me, there is no doubt that it is Peter Madsen who has dismembered the body. I have no imagination to imagine who else should have done that. This should be seen in the light of the fact that there were no others aboard the submarine.

06 - Mobile phone was thrown overboard
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown his mobile phone into the water. It is still unclear what has happened to Kim Wall's mobile phone. It has not been found aboard the submarine.
Jan Jarlbæk: Technically, the police can retrieve information about the connections that have been made to the mobile phones. However, it is not possible to find specific data on the phones such as messages when you do not have physical access to the mobile phones.

07 - Dismembered torso
It is still unclear why Kim Wall's body has become dismembered. It was only her torso found by a cyclist on the beach side at Klydesøen in Vestamager.
Jan Jarlbæk: In order to understand why the body is involved, we must go into the head of Peter Madsen. From a criminal mindset, it has been easier for him to get the body out of the submarine. The body may also be part of a wish that it will be harder to find as well as to reduce the risk of floating to the sea surface.
Kurt Kragh: The legal medics can say with 100 percent confidence that the body is part of a conscious act. It does not depend on that Peter Madsen denies having done this. Then someone else should have come by and have dismembered, but it's not plausible.

08 - Left Kim Wall on Refshale Island
Peter Madsen explained on August 11 that he had left Kim Wall on Refshale Island. The question now is why he came up with this unbelievable explanation, shortly after he had been sailed ashore by a yacht.
Kurt Kragh: I do not think Peter Madsen was aware that the police already were on the case when he landed on Friday, August 11th. It was Kim Walls boyfriend who, after a last call from Kim Wall, alerted the police. They subsequently launched a major investigation. The police only does so if there is a serious report.
Jan Jarlbæk: There is no logic in it. It seems to me that he has known that he has been in trouble. I assume that the police questioned witnesses on the Refshale island, surveyed by video surveillance cameras and received reports from the Sea Operative Command, about which entries there had been to and from Refshale Island on Thursday evening.

09 - The pressure and stress
In court, Peter Madsen acknowledged that in the period up to his arrest he had been hard pressed psychologically and 'very stressed'.
Kurt Kragh: This assertion may well be right.
Jan Jarlbæk: A mental examination must now provide insight into Peter Madsen's mental state. Here, among other things, it will be examined whether he has empathy or whether he is self-assertive and ignorant of the feelings of other people.

Logical_Inference,
Very informative post.
Thank you.
 
I'm with KF, I would not discard the theory of an accident gone terribly wrong so easily.

First, it is possible that this happened, like KF says, and it would IMHO also explain the lumps of hair that were found.

Next PM said he fell asleep, if I read that well. This is not so strange either. When confronted with fear, danger or stress, the body has three options:
flee (nowhere to go in a submarine)
fight (no one to fight against and all other actions are unclear) or
freeze, when the body starts slowing down and switches off the system.

It must have been panic galore when the accident happened. PM is alone in the ship, has no back-up, has nowhere to go and no one to help him. In these circumstances, falling asleep, or something that is perceived as sleep is a way of the body to save the situation, not a lack of interest. This IMHO makes him human and not the Superman or Supercreep as he is being depicted.

I do not think that he planned all this. If he had planned it, he would have made a better plan. You cannot build rockets and leave the part where the rocket comes down after it has gone up. You have to plan for everything. Same with the submarine, you cannot go underwater and see what happens, you have to be reasonably sure that it will function and that you are able to get out in an emergency. That is why PLANNING is at the core of what they do.

Therefore IMHO the option of an accident is not unthinkable, and whatever his state of mind was until that moment, he must have gone completely out of his mind afterwards.

The accident part is certainly quite possible (in particular with the new information about the hatch). However, Kim Wall was cut to pieces and made to sink. This is not something you do in a mad haze. This was meticulous work. It took time. There is absolutely no way Peter Madsen could somehow block it mentally, or otherwise forget it. For some reason he has deliberately decided to omit that part from his story. This, and not the accident story, if why I fall heavily on the side or murder (although I don't think he specifically planned to kill Kim Wall).

Remember that Peter Madsen would have known the hatch could be dangerous. If he had to come up with a story that's very likely where he would have gone.
 
I think that PM is very stubborn. He tried to appeal the prolonged custody, but it didnt help though.
He wants to get out...now.


https://translate.google.com/transl...dsen-skal-blive-bag-tremmer/6812556&sandbox=1

or here
https://translate.google.com/transl...rsvarer-forsoegte-at-faa-ham-loesladt-torsdag

I kinda think they have to. If you declare yourself innocent it's only natural you'll appeal pretrial custody. I don't think they expected the higher court to change the verdict.
 
I'm with KF, I would not discard the theory of an accident gone terribly wrong so easily.

First, it is possible that this happened, like KF says, and it would IMHO also explain the lumps of hair that were found.

Next PM said he fell asleep, if I read that well. This is not so strange either. When confronted with fear, danger or stress, the body has three options:
flee (nowhere to go in a submarine)
fight (no one to fight against and all other actions are unclear) or
freeze, when the body starts slowing down and switches off the system.

It must have been panic galore when the accident happened. PM is alone in the ship, has no back-up, has nowhere to go and no one to help him. In these circumstances, falling asleep, or something that is perceived as sleep is a way of the body to save the situation, not a lack of interest. This IMHO makes him human and not the Superman or Supercreep as he is being depicted.

I do not think that he planned all this. If he had planned it, he would have made a better plan. You cannot build rockets and leave the part where the rocket comes down after it has gone up. You have to plan for everything. Same with the submarine, you cannot go underwater and see what happens, you have to be reasonably sure that it will function and that you are able to get out in an emergency. That is why PLANNING is at the core of what they do.

Therefore IMHO the option of an accident is not unthinkable, and whatever his state of mind was until that moment, he must have gone completely out of his mind afterwards.

Yeah it could be true with an accident, but I cant connect the dots with that, because he did apparently bring a saw to the submarine, and a witness did tell about that PM has been discusssing the puncturing of the body to prevent it from floating. He tries to hide what has happened when he come ashore. He also did cancel some event the day after before he left with Kim.
Its only circumstantial I know, but it bothers me.
 
Some stray thoughts after reading this: https://translate.google.com/transl...adsen-opgaven-kim-wall-aldrig-vendte-hjem-fra

My thoughts are a bit here and there, if that will bother you, don´t read! :moo:

Why would Peter Madsen go into a "suicidal psychosis" (his own words) and want to die himself because Kim Wall died accidentally?

Does that make any sense?

Was he depressed beforehand? He had been building his rockets for years, but they weren´t really going anywhere.
Was the mission to launch a man (himself) into space fading? Was he worried that his original project, Copenhagen Suborbitals, now taken over by others, might reach that goal before he could?
He is approaching 50 years of age.
Most of his recent life has centered around the Refshale Island, I think about 15 years.
Nautilus was situated there, as were his old and his new rocket workshops.
The Refshale Island is sort of like the Wild West of Copenhagen, BUT the city is closing in on it.
The ground prices are going up, fancy residences are being built - closer and closer to Peter Madsen´s little world.
He can´t have been happy about that.

Could Kim Wall have triggered him with some questions that went too close? She was a successful, international reporter, a jet setter. Did he feel like a loser compared to her?

He cries when he ties a string around her feet. The tights pile off as he pulls her up through the tower of Nautilus, he claims. The same does her panties. He throws her lifeless body overboard.

We pretty much know this is a lie, but I still have a question: if her shoes, pantyhose and panties pile off, did Kim Wall fall to the ground once more?

Some notice that Peter Madsen seems to have some indeterminate red plamager on one leg and fingers.

Also on his left nostril, we have learned from Tuesday´s court hearing - ugh. He didn´t clean up that thoroughly.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/148DE/production/_97309148_mediaitem97309144.jpg

I think you should ask the female present about how pants fall off together with tights. I do not know Peter Madsen
Yeah, Peter Madsen, mine fall off all the time when I am tied up in my feet while I am being dragged through a submarine tube.
What an utterly stupid thing to say! Gah

Peter Madsen wants to allow the police check his computer, but only if he is present.
HAHAHA

He is the most for red lipstick, stilettos and nylon stockings.

So he does have a thing for stockings.

I'm finished being 'Rocket-Madsen'. 'Rocket-Madsen' died on August 10th

I don´t like people who refer to themselves in third person.

Neither Kim Wall nor Peter Madsen's phones were found at the search.

That is incriminating and shows he has something to hide. Something in the messages on the phones.
 
The accident part is certainly quite possible (in particular with the new information about the hatch). However, Kim Wall was cut to pieces and made to sink. This is not something you do in a mad haze. This was meticulous work. It took time. There is absolutely no way Peter Madsen could somehow block it mentally, or otherwise forget it. For some reason he has deliberately decided to omit that part from his story. This, and not the accident story, if why I fall heavily on the side or murder (although I don't think he specifically planned to kill Kim Wall).

Remember that Peter Madsen would have known the hatch could be dangerous. If he had to come up with a story that's very likely where he would have gone.

It would have taken hours.
I wonder if he went to sleep at all. He could have made that up to cover for all those hours he was "missing".

Can´t get over that we were all so worried about him and the reporter being on the bottom of the ocean.
That morning I thought the reporter was male.
 
Logical_Inference said:
snipped by me...
08 - Left Kim Wall on Refshale Island
Peter Madsen explained on August 11 that he had left Kim Wall on Refshale Island. The question now is why he came up with this unbelievable explanation, shortly after he had been sailed ashore by a yacht.
Kurt Kragh: I do not think Peter Madsen was aware that the police already were on the case when he landed on Friday, August 11th. It was Kim Walls boyfriend who, after a last call from Kim Wall, alerted the police. They subsequently launched a major investigation. The police only does so if there is a serious report.
Jan Jarlbæk: There is no logic in it. It seems to me that he has known that he has been in trouble. I assume that the police questioned witnesses on the Refshale island, surveyed by video surveillance cameras and received reports from the Sea Operative Command, about which entries there had been to and from Refshale Island on Thursday evening

re red bold - wondering "what" was said in the last phone call to her BF that made him think "something" was wrong?!

Thanks for the articles info guys! Very much appreciated.
 
re red bold - wondering "what" was said in the last phone call to her BF that made him think "something" was wrong?!

Thanks for the articles info guys! Very much appreciated.


Yeah, I would like to know too!
Also what time it was made.
 
re red bold - wondering "what" was said in the last phone call to her BF that made him think "something" was wrong?!

Thanks for the articles info guys! Very much appreciated.
I never caught that! She called her boyfriend - which is no doubt why this moved so quickly and he was in custody immediately.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
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