Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[Luckybuck]

How does one follow the money trail? ie...who is the benefactor of the property, the money, the life insurance? Is any of this information accessible to the public?
If one parent is deceased and one is in prison, do the assets in the deceased parent name remain in a trust until the parent in prison is released? (provided they are named the beneficiary)

 

[DotsEyes]

If the person who is the named beneficiary is also the murderer of the policy holder, the murderer does NOT get the proceeds from the policy and in this scenario where GA is convicted of the murder of CA, the proceeds would go to KC and LA.

GA would still have interest in the house, as it is still his property even if he was in prison. KC and LA would not automatically "get" the house to themselves.

KC is a nightmare and her parents had real concerns about the fact that if they tossed her out of the house, that meant that Caylee would be homeless too. This is a very hard place to be for a grandparent. I can sympathize with them over this.

Anyone who lies and steals can not be trusted in any aspect of their lives.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

...appreciate the feedback on both the pro's & con's.

FWIW...to continue down this path a bit.

*A chloroforming of Cindy would not have been a physical altercation. Casey would have been @ the home to pick up Caylee upon Cindy returning from Mt. Dora. Casey would've laced a drink, perhaps. IIRC, 4-5 drops req'd and either waited for that to take effect before attempting to murder Cindy, or, took Caylee to Lee's for sedation and returned to do the deed on a sedated Cindy. However, if the dosage was wrong or wasn't all consumed (more plausible)...then, Casey may've had her hands full.

*Consider that IF Casey was framing George it had to look like a crime of passion physically carried out by a man. This would support why she'd want to break Cindy's neck, and thought she could accomplish it if Cindy were disabled/unconcious.

*If you've never lived with a completely dominating person of Cindy's apparent make-up I can certainly understand not believing Casey would rise to the level of rage necessary to plan & carry this out. Not excusing Casey's actions...only understanding them.

*Caylee's murder would have been the unintended result of overdose, or, crime of passion revenge following the foiled murder of Cindy. That would help to explain why Casey hadn't set things up better for a Caylee kidnapping.

...still plenty to look @ in terms of how Casey would've been setting up an alibi for herself, as well as her actions immediately following (e.g. flurry of calls, etc.) Noted before, but, also in line w/ this is the dramatic change in Casey's communication w/ Cindy. She went from calling to texting for the first time, then, they relied almost solely on texting. Enough phone time to have some real fights.

...still all IMHO, of course.

Bond, this is fascinating. I'm curious, though, as to why you don't think Cindy would call LE immediately to report an attempt on her life? Seems like, in this scenario, she would have realized Caylee's life would have been in danger, too. That, I think, would have moved her past her personal pride to get LE involved.

I hope you didn't already explain this -- and I just missed it!

 

[piratemom]

Interesting stuff, I do think KC was trying to do something hence telling people her parents are going to let her have the house, that they were divorcing and even GA's mini stroke was setting him up for something and that this was being planned since march. I wonder if LA was in on it? I wonder if now reading all this the A's know of their intended demise.
I do think KC sedaded Caylee often and in the end it was fatal. I still think it was "unwitting" but sedating your child with xanax, making light of it by calling it zanny and doing it so often is psycho.
I also wonder if the neckbreaking search was just the trucker group of friends she was into?

 

[mitzi]

Bond, you've made me think in other directions. How about that KC and CA were in a huge fight, and both became physical with each other. KC and Cindy started to get physical, but because of Cindy being the stronger of the two, Cindy actually did put her hands around KC's neck, and somehow KC broke free, but thought that CA had actually tried to kill her. What if, during the time between seeing her counselor, and the night of the fight, Cindy had been thinking that there was no way that she would legally be able to get custody of Caylee, without KC being found to be an incompetent mother. And for her whole life, KC was such a problem to Cindy, ie. lied, stole, fought with her parents, cussed in Caylee's presence, etc., but would be hard to prove to be an unfit mother, in order to relieve KC of custody of Caylee. I think KC did have some sort of plan or fantasy plan of getting rid of CA & GA, to get money and the house, but that night realized that it would be harder to get the job done, and she now had a fear that things had gone too far by that night, and Cindy was really going to follow through on her threats to take Caylee away from her-not that KC really wanted to be a mother, but that she was so jealous of Caylee's affection for Cindy over herself. So at that point KC grabbed Caylee and took off in the car screaming at her mom that she'd make sure that Cindy would never see Caylee again.

KC hadn't really thought this through, and starts to realize that she has just lost the only "real" babysitter she'd have, ie. Cindy. KC would have full responsibility of Caylee from then on, and how would she get to party at all, and how would she support herself and Caylee. Oh, what to do? Then Caylee fusses and wants her Ci-ci and her Jo-jo and still being in a rage over the fight, KC smacks Caylee or (not sure what at this point), and ends up killing her.

Hard to put into words for me, you are a much more eloquent writer, but you catch my drift.

Thoughts?

 

[shelbar53]

...appreciate the feedback on both the pro's & con's.

FWIW...to continue down this path a bit.

*A chloroforming of Cindy would not have been a physical altercation. Casey would have been @ the home to pick up Caylee upon Cindy returning from Mt. Dora. Casey would've laced a drink, perhaps. IIRC, 4-5 drops req'd and either waited for that to take effect before attempting to murder Cindy, or, took Caylee to Lee's for sedation and returned to do the deed on a sedated Cindy. However, if the dosage was wrong or wasn't all consumed (more plausible)...then, Casey may've had her hands full.

*Consider that IF Casey was framing George it had to look like a crime of passion physically carried out by a man. This would support why she'd want to break Cindy's neck, and thought she could accomplish it if Cindy were disabled/unconcious.

*If you've never lived with a completely dominating person of Cindy's apparent make-up I can certainly understand not believing Casey would rise to the level of rage necessary to plan & carry this out. Not excusing Casey's actions...only understanding them.

*Caylee's murder would have been the unintended result of overdose, or, crime of passion revenge following the foiled murder of Cindy. That would help to explain why Casey hadn't set things up better for a Caylee kidnapping.

...still plenty to look @ in terms of how Casey would've been setting up an alibi for herself, as well as her actions immediately following (e.g. flurry of calls, etc.) Noted before, but, also in line w/ this is the dramatic change in Casey's communication w/ Cindy. She went from calling to texting for the first time, then, they relied almost solely on texting. Enough phone time to have some real fights.

...still all IMHO, of course.

I would think to strangle someone with the intent of murder, it would leave a bruise on the neck and or "hoarse" voice. Does anyone remember either of them having bruises hoarse voice?

I do think casey was planning on doing away with either one or both parents. Hence, looking up self defense and common household weapons. She did tell 2different sets of friends she was getting the house.

If she had that much hatred for her mom and if a big fight occured that night, then maybe killing caylee was an impulsive act of revenge.

I would like to know if they tested caylees hair from the brush for any types of drugs...if xanax and chloroform would show up with repeated use.

This had nothing to do with what we are talking about but it never ceases to amaze me the lies cindy tells and to LE of people to lie to.

Cindy told LE the father of caylee was Eric somethingl, she didnt remember the last name but they went to a lawyer to have papers drawn up stating they would get custody of caylee in case something happened to casey. She named the lawyer and said the papers were at home. In the latest doc release LE addded as a footnote, they checked with the lawyer and he had no clue what they were talking about and he never heard of an eric.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Eyewitness News also learned Cindy Anthony had gone to a counselor who told her to kick Casey out. Cindy was worried Casey would take Caylee with her, so the counselor told her to try to get legal custody of Caylee.

IF this is true could explain a lot!!!

I'm not caught up on the whole thread, but thank you so much for posting this - I have wondered from the beginning why CA didn't get custody, because then this wouldn't have happened to the poor child. Even if there was an argument and Casey left with Caylee, they could have legally gotten her back the next day instead of waiting a month.

Diane Dimond says this

. . . Somewhere deep in her twisted mind she believes she isn't required to account for the whereabouts of her tiny child, she believes she'll "win" at this mind game if she just stays silent.
Dr. Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, President of the Violent Crimes Institute, says Casey is displaying typical escapist behavior. She calls it the "White Picket Fence Fantasy" whereby young women long for a knight in shining armor to rescue them from their boring lives. When it doesn't happen reality seeps in and instead of feeling love for their child they begin to feel seething anger. "Everything that has gone wrong becomes the fault of the child," says Dr. Shurman-Kuflin who has interviewed many female serial killers and mass murderers and profiles the mind-set. [/B]

discussion about Diane's article http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70636

makes you think mom was tired of Casey's lies, Casey couldn't "use" Caylee anymore to manipulate mom, hadn't found a "daddy" to be responsible (not from lack of practice) and Caylee was just in the way, she wanted OUT

OMG - that is exactly how I have always seen Casey - I love that Picket Fence theory. So far from the reality of this case as possible, isn't it? I agree that magical thinking and escapist fantasies put Caylee in danger.

 

[passionflower]

Bond, you've made me think in other directions. How about that KC and CA were in a huge fight, and both became physical with each other. KC and Cindy started to get physical, but because of Cindy being the stronger of the two, Cindy actually did put her hands around KC's neck, and somehow KC broke free, but thought that CA had actually tried to kill her. What if, during the time between seeing her counselor, and the night of the fight, Cindy had been thinking that there was no way that she would legally be able to get custody of Caylee, without KC being found to be an incompetent mother. And for her whole life, KC was such a problem to Cindy, ie. lied, stole, fought with her parents, cussed in Caylee's presence, etc., but would be hard to prove to be an unfit mother, in order to relieve KC of custody of Caylee. I think KC did have some sort of plan or fantasy plan of getting rid of CA & GA, to get money and the house, but that night realized that it would be harder to get the job done, and she now had a fear that things had gone too far by that night, and Cindy was really going to follow through on her threats to take Caylee away from her-not that KC really wanted to be a mother, but that she was so jealous of Caylee's affection for Cindy over herself. So at that point KC grabbed Caylee and took off in the car screaming at her mom that she'd make sure that Cindy would never see Caylee again.

KC hadn't really thought this through, and starts to realize that she has just lost the only "real" babysitter she'd have, ie. Cindy. KC would have full responsibility of Caylee from then on, and how would she get to party at all, and how would she support herself and Caylee. Oh, what to do? Then Caylee fusses and wants her Ci-ci and her Jo-jo and still being in a rage over the fight, KC smacks Caylee or (not sure what at this point), and ends up killing her.

Hard to put into words for me, you are a much more eloquent writer, but you catch my drift.

Thoughts?

It's my opinion also that Caylee was killed in a rage of KC. Caylee was tired, upset from the huge fight and crying, probably wanting her grandma and KC
was so pizzed that she wanted the kid (snothead) to just go to sleep. Yes probably smacked her and cloroformed her and stuck her in the trunk with the pizza and garbage..................

 

[servingothers]

I totally agree that Casey can not plan in advance....she had a month to come with a plausible story regarding Caylee's disappearance instead of the nonsensical, easily disproven lies that she eventually spewed.

What is really frustrating is that LE thought she was on the brink of telling the truth a couple of times and her lawyer talked her out of it. This speaks directly to the sloppy police work in the beginning particularly her first interviewers. They were completely ineffective and then they compounded their stupidity by charging her with "economic crimes and child neglect", which guaranteed her lawyering up.

Jose Baez should hang his fat head in shame if he has silenced her from disclosing Caylee's whereabouts instead of plea bargaining a lesser charge. It's a damned shame he can't be disbarred for it.

You couldn't have said it better. All of this fisaco is from the way LE handled this case from the beginning.

 

[passionflower]

the lawyer who suppose to set up safety net for ants to have Caylee if something happened to KC.............they lied AGAIN, as usual.............why?? They seem to just tell stories, who cared? We were all thinking of Caylee and could care less if they had custody if something happened to KC......but they made up a story and never had papers drawn up...........the ants are a piece of work!
Yes, I still think as I stated months ago, KC wanted them all gone..........but only Caylee was first............I have a question for the ants...........would you REALLY want KC to live with you again???? They should a fess up NOW!

 

[mitzi]

You couldn't have said it better. All of this fisaco is from the way LE handled this case from the beginning.

I'm not so sure that OCSO hasn't handled the case properly. What we have seen is just a small part of the total investigation. From what I have heard, OCSO is a highly respected law enforcement agency, even by the FBI. In reading just the first 150 pages of the new documents released, there are lots of parts of pages and whole pages of the interviews omitted. Who knows what is written there, and why leave it out? Maybe it is some of the most condemning stuff! One thing I have noticed in those first 150 pages, is that Yuri and John Allen were onto CA right from the start. I really feel, she may get some charges down the road. Maybe just waiting until she perjures herself.

 

[shelbar53]

You couldn't have said it better. All of this fisaco is from the way LE handled this case from the beginning.

I think det john allen did a horrible job of questiong casey, all he did was talk, talk, talk, you could tell he thought he was being clever but all he was just a blabber mouth. he never let casey talk or fully answer questions. I wondedr if he got in trouble for that and I wonder what his peers are saying about it.

I agree they were to quick to arrest her, which then, forced their own hand into having to charging her for murder to soon.

 

[shelbar53]

the lawyer who suppose to set up safety net for ants to have Caylee if something happened to KC.............they lied AGAIN, as usual.............why?? They seem to just tell stories, who cared? We were all thinking of Caylee and could care less if they had custody if something happened to KC......but they made up a story and never had papers drawn up...........the ants are a piece of work!
Yes, I still think as I stated months ago, KC wanted them all gone..........but only Caylee was first............I have a question for the ants...........would you REALLY want KC to live with you again???? They should a fess up NOW!

When I read that the lawyer didnt kknow anything about it, it made my blood boil to think cindy so carefee lied to LE, good lord LE was trying to find out where her granddaughter is. I hope something is done about that. That is a clear case of obstruction of justice. Mayeb LE was thinking the father kidnapped caylee and now cindy just told them...oh no the father is eric and he wants nothing to do with caylee when actually eric isnt the father. They should bring the lawyer and cindy together and make cindy account for her lie..then arrest her on the spot.

Also that particular lie then confirmed for me that rumor about Lee is probably true and she KNOWS it.

 

[passionflower]

When I read that the lawyer didnt kknow anything about it, it made my blood boil to think cindy so carefee lied to LE, good lord LE was trying to find out where her granddaughter is. I hope something is done about that. That is a clear case of obstruction of justice. Mayeb LE was thinking the father kidnapped caylee and now cindy just told them...oh no the father is eric and he wants nothing to do with caylee when actually eric isnt the father. They should bring the lawyer and cindy together and make cindy account for her lie..then arrest her on the spot.

Also that particular lie then confirmed for me that rumor about Lee is probably true and she KNOWS it.

CA caught in so many lies to LE and not helping in the case, makes me wonder if she is a diabolical liar like KC or trying to cover up.......:behindbar
for her!!!!

 

[shelbar53]

CA caught in so many lies to LE and not helping in the case, makes me wonder if she is a diabolical liar like KC or trying to cover up.......:behindbar
for her!!!!

she is both. I think she thinks "no body" no conviction. I cant imagine her wanting casey back home. Whats up with them NOT going to visir her in jail even if just to say " I love you". And why would they celebrate thanksgiving, daughter in jail for murder, lying, stealing, granddaughter dead. OMG, the first holiday without caylee....i would be deeply depressed, in no mood to cook or celebrate.

 

[bookworm474]

I still think that KC chloroformed Caylee and killed her, but my thoughts
was that KC wanted them ALL gone.........GA she stated she hated.......
CA was to controlling and Caylee was in the way of her fun time.......if they all were dead, she and LA would inherit everything and be free as a bird.
Evil mind in that KC. She had been up to a plan, just happened to fast and only Caylee suffered in all this mess! IMO, :behindbar

When a malignant narcissist decides what they want, they want it ALL. One by one she eliminated people with lies and theft. Look at how she moved forward. She thinks it is all hers. Did she tell LP to get out of HER house??

 

[passionflower]

she is both. I think she thinks "no body" no conviction. I cant imagine her wanting casey back home. Whats up with them NOT going to visir her in jail even if just to say " I love you". And why would they celebrate thanksgiving, daughter in jail for murder, lying, stealing, granddaughter dead. OMG, the first holiday without caylee....i would be deeply depressed, in no mood to cook or celebrate.

I could not have any holidays until my family was back together........we know the family is gone now. LA stays away, maybe from Uncle and gramma's advice........CA family really upset with them. What about GA family? Caylee and KC gone, just her and GA, why fake a 'hallmark card' family holiday.............I would never get out of bed, I would want to curl up and die. CA may go :behindbar

 

[BeanE]

Page 2499 - On Aug 7, 2008, Mark Fuhrman recounted his conversations with George and Cindy to OCSO. George & Cindy told him that Cindy and Casey had an argument on June 15 or 16.

 

[shelbar53]

I could not have any holidays until my family was back together........we know the family is gone now. LA stays away, maybe from Uncle and gramma's advice........CA family really upset with them. What about GA family? Caylee and KC gone, just her and GA, why fake a 'hallmark card' family holiday.............I would never get out of bed, I would want to curl up and die. CA may go :behindbar

Do you think cindy feels she is a "celebrity"?
Who is she cooking a turkey for? Just george, who she doesnt like anyways and is only living with him because she doesnt want to pay him alimony. And for goodness sake, what kind of able body man would take money from their spouse when they are capable of working. Im not talking about people with millions of dollars. Im talking about a man who is capable or working and was the cause signifcant money hardships.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Cindy can't even think that Casey may have hurt Caylee, because in her subsconscience, she thinks it's her fault..if only she hadn't etc.
Without professional help, I don't think Cindy will ever be able to accept the truth. The only thing she has to hold onto is her little Casey and the lie..otherwise, she'll lose her mind.
How can she accept the truth that her own daughter she adored could hurt Caylee? How can she rationalize all of this, knowing she was the one forcing Casey to grow up, which resulted in Caylee's death.
I can't see Cindy ever coming to terms with the truth.
^i^

Unfortunately I believe CA has already lost her mind. She is telling more lies now than KC - She is keeping GA on a short lead and getting him to go along with her insanity. She will never recover from this, and most likely after the trial be in jail along side of KC.