Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[cyberborg]

Interesting speculation, but I don't agree with it. fwiw.
sorry. Fantasy is one thing. Attempting to murder your mom is quite another. I know people think Casey is a sociopath uncapable of feeling or emotion, but I see the one thing she feels is the need to be loved and accepted by her mother. I could be wrong. I could be being played, but it's what I see.
Furthermore her lies aren't really planned in adance. They are spun on a dime, and easily added to. Her actions seem very short sighted imho, and I find it unreasonable that Caylee hasn't been found yet. She doesn't plan well ie, she is always running out of gas! I mean really. With all the trouble it takes to fix that problem, just go to the gas station, but she doesn't think a mile down the road. I believe her lies reinforce that. Caylee shouldn't be hard to find. Not with her words, but with her character, and actions. sorry for spewing here. This case is seriously getting to me. I'm sorry.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[cyberborg]

I keep going back to that statement KC made to CA on the phone - " "What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?"

I just feel there is something we are missing here. We really did not miss the sexual abuse part - we talked about that early, to the dismay of some here, and CA even in the beginning covered for KC as soon as she realized Caylee was 'GONE" - She is even the one who brought up "Who took her" on the phone with LE

I have come to believe that the statement bolded (which bothered me greatly) was in context to CA's cameos on TV and at that time CA was keeping an open mind --- and both CA and GA were tending to go against KC.

KC was manic at this time and I think the statement later on in the same call when she is talking to LA and telling the whole family to forget seeing her at the bond hearing was when she used 'KC coercion' to force them back in her full support.

She spun her parents with possible rejection (love hostage), as well as a guilt trip with the LE not researching her statements and trying to pin the disappearance on her.

She spun LA to action with investigating for her but provided nothing concrete, she spun CA with ZFG kidnapped Caylee and got her fired up, she spun GA and A's with the threats and harm, etc. KC is holding the A family hostage and sworn to secrecy if they ever want to see Caylee.

She played them and pulled them into her court. Probably the thread was, "if you want to see Caylee ever again then you need to listen to me but keep it totally secret (so LE won't debunk her) else you will NEVER find her and I (KC) am the only one who can help you. LE and FBI are lame and cannot even find ZFG!!!!"

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond, this is fascinating. I'm curious, though, as to why you don't think Cindy would call LE immediately to report an attempt on her life? Seems like, in this scenario, she would have realized Caylee's life would have been in danger, too. That, I think, would have moved her past her personal pride to get LE involved.

I hope you didn't already explain this -- and I just missed it!

Hi, Expecting Unicorns.

Since it was an unsuccessful attempt on Cindy, it is possible that she didn't realize Casey's intent. IOW...to Cindy it may've just seemed like a fight, esp. if she hadn't been effectively dosed by Casey...enough to note side effects more than a headache, etc.

Regarding other posts that cite Casey's ability to plan anything in advance, therefore, making an attempt on Cindy not credible...I agree Casey's m.o. isn't to plan things out...plenty of examples that support she "lives in the moment". I'm just tryin' on some different ideas to see what might fit aspects of the case that otherwise aren't explained. And, as always, I appreciate the critical eye.

 

[distracted]

And I keep remembering "What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?"

This statement has always bothered me as well. But as time passes and more info is released, I believe KC was simply aghast that her mother might not completely believe her story. KC, the master manipulator, has always been able to deceive Cindy (or so she thinks) and get away with whatever she wants. Heck, she thinks she got away with her lies about working for almost two years.

Cindy's response, calling KC "sweetheart" and the placating tone she used, was her attempt to diffuse KC's anger and the manic state she was in. I have a feeling that this was just a normal give and take between the two of them.

If Cindy has had any involvement, it's been in the aftermath.

 

[debs]

:clap: Excellent points! I've always had a strong & persistant feeling myself that KC had her sights set on "others" as well and her plans didn't quite go the way that she expected - any thoughts on AH? I have had a nagging feeling that I just can't seem to shake in which she may have been in more danger then she knew or suspected...?

AH suffered at least financial victimization from Casey (which seems to be the first overt sign of victimizing her parents/grandparents). She was lied to. And then, abandoned by Casey's big plan to move her into the Anthony home, AH was left homeless. Did she go back to her family for support? Did she lean on any of her other friends? Nope. She moved in with Ricardo. Casey was barely 3 weeks off the breakup.

I can only say this is speculation, but I would bet my toenail collection that Casey's mind determined that Amy was getting involved with Ricardo and kept Amy close in order to see "the signs." This is not in any manner a speculation on Amy's actual behavior. Just in how Casey would have processed the situation. I think Amy became suddenly BFF#1 because of her new living situation. If Amy is constantly answering Casey's txts when she's not at work or with Casey, Casey can be assured that she's probably not messing with her exBF, who I believe was Casey's real desire, and not AL at all. I think AL was just someone Casey used to prove to Ric that she could get anyone she wanted.....but really wanted Ric. And there was Amy, living in his apartment with him, even innocently, but that fact won't matter. That will have festered in Casey's mind, no matter how friendly she may have been toward Amy, and everything in the friendship will have been to gather information in order to set up her next step.

In all things, stealing from Amy was Casey's way of getting a pound of flesh from her. I can't speculate as to whether that would have escalated to actual flesh.

 

[Dutchie Treat]

This statement has always bothered me as well. But as time passes and more info is released, I believe KC was simply aghast that her mother might not completely believe her story. KC, the master manipulator, has always been able to deceive Cindy (or so she thinks) and get away with whatever she wants. Heck, she thinks she got away with her lies about working for almost two years.

Cindy's response, calling KC "sweetheart" and the placating tone she used, was her attempt to diffuse KC's anger and the manic state she was in. I have a feeling that this was just a normal give and take between the two of them.

If Cindy has had any involvement, it's been in the aftermath.

I agree. I think Cindy is a classic "savior" type personality. She saved GA. She saved KC her whole life. Perhaps when she realized (at the very moment of the 911 call IMO) that Caylee was gone, she went into savior mode and decided (probably subconsciously) to "save" KC and what ever there was to save of her fantasy image of having the perfect middle class family. She seems to be very concerned with appearances. It's too bad no one who knows the family is coming with stories of how CA "saved" LA. I'm sure the stories exist. It's her modus operandi. She can use it later to martyr herself when necessary (play the victim).

 

[debs]

I would think to strangle someone with the intent of murder, it would leave a bruise on the neck and or "hoarse" voice. Does anyone remember either of them having bruises hoarse voice? *Snipped*
If she had that much hatred for her mom and if a big fight occured that night, then maybe killing caylee was an impulsive act of revenge.

We didn't see them until after a month had transpired past the date of this alleged fight.

 

[OneLostGrl]

This statement has always bothered me as well. But as time passes and more info is released, I believe KC was simply aghast that her mother might not completely believe her story. KC, the master manipulator, has always been able to deceive Cindy (or so she thinks) and get away with whatever she wants. Heck, she thinks she got away with her lies about working for almost two years.

Cindy's response, calling KC "sweetheart" and the placating tone she used, was her attempt to diffuse KC's anger and the manic state she was in. I have a feeling that this was just a normal give and take between the two of them.

If Cindy has had any involvement, it's been in the aftermath.

ITA. You could tell by the way Casey spoke to her mother that she knew just how to break her and get her back on her "side". Any threat of losing Casey's love and Cindy is lost IMO

 

[debs]

I agree. I think Cindy is a classic "savior" type personality. She saved GA. She saved KC her whole life. Perhaps when she realized (at the very moment of the 911 call IMO) that Caylee was gone, she went into savior mode and decided (probably subconsciously) to "save" KC and what ever there was to save of her fantasy image of having the perfect middle class family. She seems to be very concerned with appearances. It's too bad no one who knows the family is coming with stories of how CA "saved" LA. I'm sure the stories exist. It's her modus operandi. She can use it later to martyr herself when necessary (play the victim).

Don't forget Cindy's parents. Mrs. P's emails with her sister are quite interesting in how Cindy takes care of everyone, including her parents. As for saving Lee...well when he was 16, remember, he had that illness that she had to make certain he was protected from any sort of injury. She went into great detail about it in Tape 5 of the FBI tapes. Interesting listening, if you ask me. Of most important note about it, though....it was recounted as an answer to the question "Did Casey suffer from any major traumas growing up?" Easily 5 minutes but more likely 10 was spent on this answer about Lee. How Casey handled it was an afterthought. What was told was how careful Cindy was to protect him.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree. I think Cindy is a classic "savior" type personality. She saved GA. She saved KC her whole life. Perhaps when she realized (at the very moment of the 911 call IMO) that Caylee was gone, she went into savior mode and decided (probably subconsciously) to "save" KC and what ever there was to save of her fantasy image of having the perfect middle class family. She seems to be very concerned with appearances. It's too bad no one who knows the family is coming with stories of how CA "saved" LA. I'm sure the stories exist. It's her modus operandi. She can use it later to martyr herself when necessary (play the victim).

Yeah but what people outside of the home don't always realize is that usually it's that very person who is doing the saving that created the situation their loved one needs to be saved from in the first place. Outsiders only see her doing the saving and think she is a good person because of it.

 

[debs]

So if CA was in a plot with Casey to kill GA, why would she call 911, not once, not twice, but three times?
I don't think any of the players here, except maybe Lee, still not sure about him, are just overwhelmed with intelligence, but man, you would have to be incredibly stupid to call in the cops when you are a co-conspirator in a murder. ETA conspiracy to commit murder.
(I have heard rarely about some crackhead calling the police to report someone for stealing their drugs, but again, crackhead, and even that is not common at all. JMO)
Lanie

ince nothing actually happened to George but something definitely happened to Caylee and Casey wasn't giving Cindy that information, Cindy was no longer in control of the plan and did what she could to get it back. Remember, she admitted that the first two calls were just trying to scare Casey and not meant to bring the police out there. It was only after she found out that Caylee had been gone the whole time Casey had that Cindy freaked.

But for what its worth, I can't see the two women conspiring to buy a box of chocolates without having difficulty. Creating a plan for this is just beyond their capabilities.

 

[tiredofthis]

ince nothing actually happened to George but something definitely happened to Caylee and Casey wasn't giving Cindy that information, Cindy was no longer in control of the plan and did what she could to get it back. Remember, she admitted that the first two calls were just trying to scare Casey and not meant to bring the police out there. It was only after she found out that Caylee had been gone the whole time Casey had that Cindy freaked.

But for what its worth, I can't see the two women conspiring to buy a box of chocolates without having difficulty. Creating a plan for this is just beyond their capabilities.

I agree with you on this. KC was the sole creater of this sick game. I don't think KC and CA had cooked up some fiendish plot to do away with GA.

 

[BondJamesBond]

But for what its worth, I can't see the two women conspiring to buy a box of chocolates without having difficulty. Creating a plan for this is just beyond their capabilities.

*snipped*
nice one.

 

[llc3guys]

Having once been married to someone like KC, I think most people are missing one vitally defining point, - that you cannot ascribe logic to her motives or rationale to her actions. People like her don't operate like the rest of us, but by another set of ever-changing rules that are driven by ever-changing emotions. Their social reality and "truths" are self-centric and self-supporting. Promiscuity is a means to an end, nothing more. Anyone speaking slight of them or questioning their "stories" is immediately deserving of wrath with no consequences. They will unwaveringly stand on their lies until and unless the truth can benefit them in some way, - at least within their own minds. Remorse, consideration, shame, or any other redeeming value, are left unwrapped within their souls. While there are many names for these kinds of people, the worst is "Mother".

 

[MarleneM]

...I can't see the two women conspiring to buy a box of chocolates without having difficulty. Creating a plan for this is just beyond their capabilities.

And that is fundamentally why I do not agree with the theory that anyone other than KC was involved in any plan to do away with anyone else. I do think that based on KC's statements to friends about getting the A home, combined with cloroform searches on the computer, KC at one point had visions of off'ing her parents and Caylee and blaming it on "some weirdo".

I don't think KC would lump LA in the equation because despite what I believe are her lies about him to her BF's (and curiously only her BF's...) KC has no hard feelings for LA. If anything, KC wants LA's approval on things above all else, even CA. KC would think off'ing her parents and Caylee would render her (and LA, who cares?) the house and her parent's insurance money. Oh the parties they could have! This could have been KC's fantasy, imo, that she was planning for.

Given KC's personality and her actions up to the time of Caylee's death, KC was on her last leg of milking her parents and she started to act out desperately. Her desperation resulted in other people "outside the family" seeing that CA's family wasn't what they thought. CA had to put her foot down at that point, and Caylee was the pawn.

 

[MarleneM]

Having once been married to someone like KC, I think most people are missing one vitally defining point, - that you cannot ascribe logic to her motives or rationale to her actions. People like her don't operate like the rest of us, but by another set of ever-changing rules that are driven by ever-changing emotions. Their social reality and "truths" are self-centric and self-supporting. Promiscuity is a means to an end, nothing more. Anyone speaking slight of them or questioning their "stories" is immediately deserving of wrath with no consequences.

They will unwaveringly stand on their lies until and unless the truth can benefit them in some way, - at least within their own minds. Remorse, consideration, shame, or any other redeeming value, are left unwrapped within their souls. While there are many names for these kinds of people, the worst is "Mother".

And they are in far greater number than we care to realize. I have one in my family as well. I agree, KC will never talk because it does *her* no good.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Having once been married to someone like KC, I think most people are missing one vitally defining point, - that you cannot ascribe logic to her motives or rationale to her actions. People like her don't operate like the rest of us, but by another set of ever-changing rules that are driven by ever-changing emotions. Their social reality and "truths" are self-centric and self-supporting. Promiscuity is a means to an end, nothing more. Anyone speaking slight of them or questioning their "stories" is immediately deserving of wrath with no consequences. They will unwaveringly stand on their lies until and unless the truth can benefit them in some way, - at least within their own minds. Remorse, consideration, shame, or any other redeeming value, are left unwrapped within their souls. While there are many names for these kinds of people, the worst is "Mother".

Great post. ITA about the mother part!

 

[Lanie]

Lanie, when CA called 911 there was no murder -- just a fight between CA and KC (and CA still doesn't even admit to that). She never, never would have expected that it would have caused the death of her granddaughter. She didn't feel implicated in the abduction of her granddaughter. She was calling 911 for help to get her granddaughter back. She couldn't see how she may have been involved in this crime. It sure does explain why she eternally continues to support KC.

And I keep remembering "What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?"

Well, obviously there was no murder of George, anyway, as he is on the news practically every day. :blowkiss:
I see it this way. If Cindy was plotting with Casey to murder George, all Casey would have to do when Cindy found her and called the police is tell LE Cindy was trying to get her to help murder George, and she was scared and pretending to go along with it, but somehow Cindy got onto her, and took Caylee to force her co-operation. Before Cindy even tracked her down, Casey could have gone to George and told him this story, and if she could convince him it was true, and I think she could have, he would have backed her up, and Cindy would be sitting in jail right now.
JMO, if this were actually the case, no way would Casey be covering for Cindy.
Lanie

 

[BondJamesBond]

Updated & retooled some old posts to elaborate on how Casey's stories to both circle of friends and her Caylee-care 6/10-6/14 were groundwork leading up to (and after) the fight 6/15 as a botched attempt at murdering Cindy. The thread was subsequently moved to the Sticky Forum (thread link in upper rh corner of the post window from link below)

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3009024&postcount=291

 

[concentric]

Along the lines of what several of you are discussing on here (the possibility that KC could have wanted to eliminate the parents), there is that interesting bit of conversation that Cindy said Casey told her when Caylee disappeared about the potential harm someone could cause to the family.

Cindy says that KC stated: no, not emotionally...but, physically

Could that have been what was on KC's agenda?