Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[Oakley]

If during this alleged fight, Cindy threatened to take legal custody of Caylee (or if she had threatened this previously) that could also be a motive.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Updated & retooled some old posts to elaborate on how Casey's stories to both circle of friends and her Caylee-care 6/10-6/14 were groundwork leading up to (and after) the fight 6/15 as a botched attempt at murdering Cindy. The thread was subsequently moved to the Sticky Forum (thread link in upper rh corner of the post window from link below)

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3009024&postcount=291

ETA: After reviewing Casey & Amy's texts again it is clear Casey was playin' Amy for much longer than I originally thought. Casey was tellin' Amy the move-into-G&C's house plan back in late May. Casey changed the story first thing 6/16 morning in her call to Amy which prompted Amy to text her immediately after asking for G&C's address so Amy could go complete another change of address card (she'd already started her mail going to G&C's).

 

[belimom]

If during this alleged fight, Cindy threatened to take legal custody of Caylee (or if she had threatened this previously) that could also be a motive.

Especially if Caylee told Casey matter-of-factly that she didn't want to stay in the trunk anymore, or not to give her the "special pills" anymore, or whatever. CA caught wind of what was going on. After the alleged fight, KC realized that Caylee was getting to old for her to continue her odd ways of keeping Caylee contained/sedated/out-of-the-picture while she partied.

Not sure what happened after that, but something like the above could've gone down ahead of time. JMHO.

 

[Mermaid]

I know most won't agree with me, but I feel so sorry for Cindy. She tried to do the right thing in attempting to throw Casey out and keep Caylee. I'm sure she feels quite a bit of guilt - if she hadn't confronted Casey none of this would have happened. I wonder if that's why she refuses to believe Casey harmed Caylee. If she accepts the truth, she has to accept that her actions (although they were right) started the whole string of events that led to Caylee's disappearance and likely her death.

I agree wholeheartedly. Cindy must be living with such guilt, I don't know how she can maintain under that awful pressure.

 

[debs]

This theory of George lying about seeing Caylee and KC on th 16th has kicked around since the beginning but I never gave it much creedence. My problem with it was not understanding why would George lie to protect KC when he seemed to have her number better than anyone else and when he seemed so devoted to Caylee. In the beginning, I couldn't help but feel that he wanted to get to the bottom of what happened so much that he would be ABSOLUTELY truthful about the last time he saw an alive Caylee. I didn't see him covering for KC. However, what if he's not covering to protect KC but to protect Cindy. We've seen that he wants to do that. What if he thought from the beginning, from Day 31 that there was a dead body in the trunk. KC turned up, so he knew it wasn't her. Caylee, however, was nowhere to be found, then 'kidnapped' with some cawcawmaemie story. KC had shown him who she was for a while and, unlike Cindy, he'd started to believe her. What if George put it all together and figured that KC killed Caylee. He co-operated with the police, telling them things he didn't even tell Cindy. Maybe that was because he wanted them to use his info find Caylee alive, but also to use if they found her dead to be able to put KC away for it if she was guilty and I do think he thought she might be capable of it. He didn't want to do the dirty work himself of admitting to her guilt out in the open or look like he was helping the police too much because Cindy would never forgive him but he'd help the cops get pointed in the right direction. However, what to do about Cindy and the fight. If KC took Caylee and left after Cindy'd gone off and never came back, KC might have snapped because of the fight. Cindy would blame herself. She couldn't live with the guilt, so he'd lie to her about seeing KC and Caylee the day after so she wouldn't feel as responsible. On the 16th, Cindy had thought she'd heard them that morning and felt better. When George discovered later that they weren't there, he said he had seen them to make Cindy feel better.

Perhaps Cindy even thought she'd heard them on Day 1 rather than Day 31. Perhaps that was when George started to lie...to make Cindy less guilty to losing it during the fight and apparently driving KC away WITH Caylee, especially when KC seemed to be keeping Caylee from them. Maybe George started telling these little white lie to keep Cindy safe from guilt way before Day 31. Then, when he got to the police, he just kept it up. He didn't figure it was that material and, anyway, he was doing his best to give the police enough to get KC if they needed to.

After all that's gone down though, it doesn't make a lot of sense that KC went home the 15th, although I supposed she could have gone back after TonE's, with or without Caylee and hidden in her room pretending to be sleeping hoping to avoid more drama the next morning in the aftermather of the fight the day before, particularly if Caylee was already dead in the trunk. Or George could be telling the truth. It's possible that we'll never know.

"George lies to protect his gravy train" theory. I can buy that.

 

[passionflower]

something odd about 'tucking your 22 yr.old grown up in bed after a fight!!!'

 

[texaslb218]

Why are the police allowing this circus to keep going on and on? Probably can't do anything about it or are just letting time play the story out.

A bounty hunter from California. Puhleeze. Grandparents who won't take a lie detector exam and continue to grift at will. Puhleeze. Friends that would make you want to take a shower just after reading about them. Puhleeze.

Caylee Anthony was a sweet sweet child.

Bold is mine.....May I steal this line to use for the Anthony's? Thanks. :blowkiss:

 

[wenwe4]

I just jumped on - don't know if this was asked b4 - I think CA nose got broken in that fite. Right after the first 911 call - CA had an injury to her nose that is finally just healed. She sported 2 black eyes for quite awhile. Anyone have info?

 

[kline]

I think it will be very interesting to see the phyc report on KC to see if she actually is a sociapath. Also when I was watching JG interview on Today Show the comment that REALLY jumped out at me was when JG said he didn't know who this KC is compared to who she was back when they were engaged. KC is very experienced at changing her personality to fit her needs. I think this is a very good reason why she is able to conform to her jail visit so well. When she was talking to GA about being home on Caylees birthday you can clearly see her manipulation with her father and how she plays him to get what she wants. Sooner or later KC will come to the realization that this is not a game shes used to playing if she hasn't already and that mommy and daddy are not going to be able to get her out of this mess. The video of LE walking KC out of her house at the time of her 2nd arrest you can clearly see in her eyes, ( I call them her killer cat eyes) that she is capable of some terrible things. She can play the good mommy role when it suits her but I really believe there is no one in her life that she has ever been honest with about who she really is or what shes capable of. I can understand how the parents are having a hard time realizing how they could have raised such a monster. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that it was actually KC that attacked CA.

That's why sociopaths are so adept at spreading confusion and playing people against each other:they have a face for every different person and every situation and every enviroment.
Often its just reflecting back what they know the person they are dealing with wants to see.
Total Chamelion.
I know people want to think she's suffering the torment of the damned in jail or will in prison but Borderline personalities like her live so completely in the moment dialed in to their immediate wants and needs and manipulating their enviroment to get them met they probably suffer far less then a normal pro social person would in that situation.
People keep expecting her to react to her incarceration and Caylee's loss like any of us would.
Sorry, aint going to happen.She's missing the peices required for that.
She's completely without the guilt that would have any of us knotting bed sheets together and looking for a way to hang it up.
Her commisary is probably at the top of her concern list right now and compiling grievances against Jail Staff over her treatment.

 

[MsMacGyver]

When my daughter was in her teens before we found out she was bi-polar she used to attack me physically. There was no great motive for it. She, at that time, was dealing with alot of problems and she chose to take her anger out on me, her mother. If CA learned about the stolen check from her parents on the 15th it's not surprising that a fight happened on that day. Also the comment that JG made on the Today Show was very telling when he said that the reason KC gave for the break up of their engagement was due to the fact that JG loved Caylee more than he loved KC. I think there's alot of pieces of the puzzle floating around and I'm sure LE have put them together.

 

[NewsHound22]

spartanmom -
I like your assessment. I agree, with the addition that I have believed for awhile that the June 9 date is also significant. Documents prove that they were not sleeping at the house for the majority of that week. I've never believed that they just pulled that date out of the air. I think June 15th was just round 2, therefore that much worse. KC came back to pick Caylee up after the Father's Day visit and CA started in on her. Maybe this is even when the "spiteful " comment came into play. All the more reason why on the following day, KC calls CA several times in a row, with no return phone call. I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this..............this is just what I think now. Kudos to whomever thunked it up first. I just can't decide if it was accidental or on purpose and KC was going to try to pin it on CA/GA. IDK, JMOO, TIA.....etc.

I dont know if this has been answered before, but why didnt KC go with everyone else to see her grandfather on Fathers Day?
I think youre right, she wasnt staying there. I never believed Georges statement about seeing KC and Caylee leaving on June 16th..I think he described the clothes Caylee was wearing a little too much detail. I cant even remember what my own child wore the day before, let alone a month later.

 

[MsMacGyver]

That's why sociopaths are so adept at spreading confusion and playing people against each other:they have a face for every different person and every situation and every enviroment.
Often its just reflecting back what they know the person they are dealing with wants to see.
Total Chamelion.
I know people want to think she's suffering the torment of the damned in jail or will in prison but Borderline personalities like her live so completely in the moment dialed in to their immediate wants and needs and manipulating their enviroment to get them met they probably suffer far less then a normal pro social person would in that situation.
People keep expecting her to react to her incarceration and Caylee's loss like any of us would.
Sorry, aint going to happen.She's missing the peices required for that.
She's completely without the guilt that would have any of us knotting bed sheets together and looking for a way to hang it up.
Her commisary is probably at the top of her concern list right now and compiling grievances against Jail Staff over her treatment.

Totally agree Kline!

 

[PaddieAB]

I think George lives with a certain amount of guilt as well. The night of the July 15th when CA picked up KC and called 911, I would assume CA also called GA at work as he knew something was happening to prompt his call to LA and ask him to go over to the house to check on CA because she was "upset". I think GA plays the passive nice guy roll in the family, perhaps this is in part what drives CAs aggression. At what point in the evening GA returned home, and what he walked into I don’t think we know. But I’m willing to bet he tried to smooth it over.

I agree with others, this night was significant in what was to tragically transpire.

 

[fla*mom]

something odd about 'tucking your 22 yr.old grown up in bed after a fight!!!'

I don't tuck my 15 yr old in! I am usually in bed before her. I will have to say though CA, if she did any tucking in was for Caylee and/or testing the waters with KC. JMHO

 

[songline]

Will Casey be held accountable for stealing $$ from her Grandfather's account ?

He is in his 80's and in a nursing home. She should be held accountable, and her Mother needs to press the charges. Don't protect !

Her parents are not going to press any charges against her.
We have already seen that they put their own life on the line to protect her.
It will be a very sad day when one of her parents get into deep chit due to Casey's insanity. I am afraid that they will because somebody DID tamper with that car. Cleaning that car was a no no....

 

[Salome]

Computer Forensics thread (incl. forensics on both G&C computers + cell ping info) provides information that suggests George's account of 6/16 is prolly accurate w.r.t. timing. Casey left, but, didn't leave the area, then returned home.

Account of Cindy's hands on Casey's throat are prolly Casey=>Lee=>Jesse...so exactly how accurate do you think that account is based on the most likely source of that detail? Would Casey bend a story to make it more sympathetic to her cause.....?........naaaaah, surely not.

Excellent post. The Computer Forensics thread gives a lot of good data to work with about the 15th and 16th.

I wouldn't trust the source of the choking comment unless we know how Lee heard it -- from CA or from KC--for the very reasons you state.

 

[MsMacGyver]

The fact that GA called LA to go over to the house says something in itself. There might have been some physical altercations before that lead GA to make that call. Sounds like LA was the ref, peacekeeper. I think CA kept GA out of the loop as far as parenting KC. GA seems by his actions to have the desire to call KC on her behavior but CA always pushed him away as much to say that she would take care of it. The A's need some serious help to realize their daughter is an adult and has to finally take responsability for her own actions. They have to stop treating KC like a child..she's NOT!...GA's story to KC about the hand and each finger was a family member is something you tell a 3 year old, not a 22 year old young woman who's sitting in jail for murder.

 

[SuziQ]

FWIW, the fight on the 15th has been confirmed by several sources and is mentioned in the docs. I believe RG and JG were told by LA. And Rick, Cindy's brother posted online and gave a statement. LP and Mark F and neighbor were reported by the media. Sheesh, I definitely need more coffee to remember specifics. In anycase, I think it's safe to say that a fight took place.

 

[Salome]

FWIW, the fight on the 15th has been confirmed by several sources and is mentioned in the docs. I believe RG and JG were told by LA. And Rick, Cindy's brother posted online and gave a statement. LP and Mark F and neighbor were reported by the media. Sheesh, I definitely need more coffee to remember specifics. In anycase, I think it's safe to say that a fight took place.

I agree. There seem to be a couple sources for the fight comment, although it's not clear how Rick heard about it (if he also heard from LA, then that's several people hearing it from the same source, who wasn't present to the fight, so was hearing it from someone else, we don't know exactly which player).

It's not clear that the fight escalated to the physical (esp. choking), partially because the sources cannot confirm that (or we just don't have access to the materials that do--e.g., more LA interview that may be held back for some reason).

 

[SuziQ]

I agree. There seem to be a couple sources for the fight comment, although it's not clear how Rick heard about it (if he also heard from LA, then that's several people hearing it from the same source, who wasn't present to the fight, so was hearing it from someone else, we don't know exactly which player).

It's not clear that the fight escalated to the physical (esp. choking), partially because the sources cannot confirm that (or we just don't have access to the materials that do--e.g., more LA interview that may be held back for some reason).

I believe RG specifically said LA told him. You are correct though, other than that LA has never made a statement about the choking to LE that we know of. So that much is unconfirmed. Curiously we've never seen LA's interview with the FBI.