Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

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For CA to be choking KC it seems to me that there would have to be a very huge motivation; not theft, not missing gas cans or the other bad behavior. It is my opinion that this fight was ignited by CA learning of the demise of Caylee. This is just speculation, of course. But I am trying to imagine what would ever cause me to choke someone. It would have to be something horrific.

JMO

Or, perhaps CA caught KC abusing little Caylee and went off on her. KC left in a huff taking Caylee with her; never to be seen alive again by the grandparents. Thus the grandparents feel guilty about the outcome of that fight. Just speculating an opinion.
 
Or, perhaps CA caught KC abusing little Caylee and went off on her. KC left in a huff taking Caylee with her; never to be seen alive again by the grandparents. Thus the grandparents feel guilty about the outcome of that fight. Just speculating an opinion.


Per Cindy's brother Rick, the fight was because CA was pissed off at KC for stealing money from CA's parents.
 
I totally believe this fight happened just exactly how it has been rumored. CA confronted KA about the stealing from GP's, got really loud and ugly, KA took Caylee and left. They did not stay the night there. GA did not see them the next day. KA waited till she knew everyone was away from the house that afternoon and then went back to get some things, wanted to go out that night, somehow (still not sure) she killed (drugged) Caylee, left her in the trunk, yada, yada, it's been discussed somewhere on here I know.
Anyway, GP's feel very guilty, esp. CA, she thinks she pushed KA to the edge. I believe CA has tremendous amount of guilt.

I'm with ya' on this. GA never saw them on the 16th, IMO. And, CA's attmepts to make that evening the picture of coziness smacks of B.S. to me and points to a desire to cover up what she may feel was the impetus for the murder. I disagree that it was the sole impetus. I think the murder was planned long before, but perhaps that was casey's last straw. In any event, can you imagine casey the 22 year old party girl being tucked into bed with the baby by her mom? Give me a break! casey probably surfed the internet for hours, long after everyone else went to bed, on nights she was not out bedding every man she met. No way was grandma tucking her in like she's 12.
 
I think what is so perplexing for me to understand, is her behavior in the jailhouse tapes, where she is sooo giddy & elated when she first greets her family, & is so comfortable in JAIL! I can't get past that! It's so abnormal under such dire circumstances?

I have never been one to sit at a computer for any length of time, & yet I am drawn into analyzing those videos & watching her mannerizms, etc., that I come away believing she has to be insane! Florida's Sunshine Laws have really brought this whole case "up close & personal" into the pschye of a true sociopath. It is so scary there are people so manipulative of others & yet, they really only beat themselves in the end.
Unfortunately, sociopaths seems to do real well in jail. That's because the things that move normal people, like love, beauty, family - do not move them. They enjoy manipulation, strife, others' pain, etc.. Things there are alot of in prison.
 
hmmmmm before or after she grabbed Casey by the throat? :crazy:

Sorry, but where was Caylee in all of this? Could she have been another factor in the fight. Could she have said something that made Cindy go into "Mother Bear" mode and go after Casey even more? Sorry this is not fact but I wonder where that sweet baby was during all of this craziness.
 
The fact that GA called LA to go over to the house says something in itself. There might have been some physical altercations before that lead GA to make that call. Sounds like LA was the ref, peacekeeper. I think CA kept GA out of the loop as far as parenting KC. GA seems by his actions to have the desire to call KC on her behavior but CA always pushed him away as much to say that she would take care of it. The A's need some serious help to realize their daughter is an adult and has to finally take responsability for her own actions. They have to stop treating KC like a child..she's NOT!...GA's story to KC about the hand and each finger was a family member is something you tell a 3 year old, not a 22 year old young woman who's sitting in jail for murder.

In GAs interviews with the FBI, he talked about all his suspicions - he said “what’s going on” at least a dozen times - he KNEW something wasn’t right with KCs absence and having not seen Caylee in 31 days. Why didn't he go home...any employer understands emergencies happen. Sad thing is it’s easy for us to look back in hindsight, but not so simple when one is in the middle of a dysfunctional family situation.

I agree that LA was the referee, and its an unfair role to place on a grown son. I do believe that both parents were held hostage by KC, through their love of their granddaughter. And KC knew and used that to extend living at home as long as she did. She wasn’t the first teenage to have a child for this reason and she won't be the last - she had an excuse to not “go out and face the world”. She remained with mom and dad, cared for in a child’s role.

Everyone plays their roles. This goes on in families everywhere. The Anthony’s could not have possibly foresaw the outcome in their intention to force KC out to grow-up.

As for the hand and finger story, I agree it was totally odd. I couldn’t help but wonder if the FBI hadn’t coached George on that one, to look for KCs response...... It was very telling.
 
no problem, i just went back and checked lee's interview on July 29 and he doesn't mention anything about the fight on the night of the 15th, so i think at this point it is hearsay..Jesse heard it from lee, and LP heard it from lee..but no official record of lee talking about the fight..i could be wrong though, LOL


Hi Coco, I think there were other interviews Lee gave. It was in one of the interviews with LE that he laughed and told about the fight and about his father tricking KC into getting the gas cans too by pretending to need the wedge.
They were all pretty straight forward it seemed in the beginning. As time went on they all changed, I'd be more interested as to why the about face with all the A's. I'm willing to bet GA was truthful or mostly truthful during the GJ inquiry. :twocents:
 
Or, perhaps CA caught KC abusing little Caylee and went off on her. KC left in a huff taking Caylee with her; never to be seen alive again by the grandparents. Thus the grandparents feel guilty about the outcome of that fight. Just speculating an opinion.

I posted this last night in another thread. I now have strong suspicions that KC abused Caylee all along, she knew better than to leave any marks though.
I have a strong feeling she made her pay by slapping her around and depriving her when nobody was looking. Only God knows what that little girl suffered before hand.
 
I agree. There seem to be a couple sources for the fight comment, although it's not clear how Rick heard about it (if he also heard from LA, then that's several people hearing it from the same source, who wasn't present to the fight, so was hearing it from someone else, we don't know exactly which player).

It's not clear that the fight escalated to the physical (esp. choking), partially because the sources cannot confirm that (or we just don't have access to the materials that do--e.g., more LA interview that may be held back for some reason).

From most of Rick's account..emails to his mother specifically it appears that he heard most of his information from SP. JMO.
 
There has been some information that Casey had previous stolen money or used the A’s credit cards and ran up some debts that could not be explained away. The figure various, 4-5 thousand dollars, 15,000 dollars but nothing been released to give any solid amount.
We know that the A’s have had financial problems, Cindy claiming she had to use funds from her 401 and have refinanced their home to clear debts as well as having had several judgments placed on them but very few specific details to determine any factual causes.

My theory on what led up to Caylee death.

Plan A.
It appears that Casey may have thought that she was going to live with RM and had been dating him since about February 2008 and stayed the night quite often with him and had Caylee with her some nights as well but that relationship did not work out as planned so Casey moved onto Plan B.
Plan B.
Casey was going to now live with Amy. To rent this house with Amy Casey would need money for a security and first months rent so hence the theft of her grand parents money before May 19th. I am not positive but I suspect that Casey, after getting caught once for stealing money from Cindy’s parents there may have been a second use of the grandparents account which was the money used to pay the phone bill to AT&T. That three hundred and some dollar amount would not have been enough money to warrant Cindy having to dip into her 401 acount to pay it back so I think there is more to this story than has been let out.
By May 15th Amy has moved in with RM so whatever original plan with Casey had already fallen apart.
From Amy’s message to Troy B dated June 24th about her mail going to a house in Oviedo I will assume that Amy was planning on living there [895 North Lake Jessup Rd] with Casey but then found out that this home was not going to be available. Either Casey did not pay the owners the necessary funds to secure this house [Parents found about the theft or the owners changed their plans on renting it.] It is now known that the owners have put the home up for sale. [A real estate listing was taken out on Sept 11 but I believe that this may have been either a renewal of an old contract or a change of realtors due to subdivision applications made in March 2008.]
The question still remains if there had been a second location that Amy and Casey where planning on renting, where was it? That also fell through when the A’s found out about the stolen money because Casey no longer had her share of the down money needed to rent a house.
That then brings us to Plan C.
Casey no longer had the money to rent so the plan changes to Amy would now move into the A’s home with Casey because GA & CA were getting a divorce and CA was going to give Casey the house. [This is per Amy’s statement to LE] and it appears that Amy still believes this up until July 15th. Casey at this point did not have any intention of living with Amy but still needed her to believe that just in case.
By June 2nd Casey is now dating Tony and is working on Plan D.
Casey has set her sites on Tony and since things have heated up at home since the A’s found out about the stolen money from CA’s parents the less time she spends there the better. The continuing problem for Casey is Caylee.
By June 9th she has started to stay with Tony every night but Caylee is not.
June 8th –14th what is Casey telling the A’s about where Caylee is? This entire week is very unclear because everybody else thinks that Caylee is with G& C or the nanny but Cindy is not saying what she knows but for all intents and purposes Caylee does not seem to be with them either due to some of the comments that they have made.
Casey is still telling Amy that they are going to live together at the house in Plan C.
June 13th she does not have anyone to watch Caylee at night and that is why Clint sees Caylee at Fusion.
On June 15th CA has Caylee for a Father’s day visit with her parents but what we don’t know is whether Caylee stayed over Saturday night June 14th or Casey dropped her off or if CA picked Caylee up somewhere.
I believe that Casey had been telling the A’s that she had changed her ways and was going to start spending more time at home at night with Caylee and
I have to wonder if Cindy did not go and get Caylee from somewhere Junr 15 and did not come in contact with Casey until later in the day.
June 15th Casey brings a lot of her clothes to Tony’s which I believe set off an argument between Tony and Casey. Casey thought everything was set with her moving in full time with Caylee but it was not cool with Tony and now she had to find another place for Caylee to stay. She went to the A’s house thinking that she could smooth things over with GA & CA and get them to watch Caylee while she worked on Tony some more. I also believe that CA in her anger let it slip that she was planning on going for full custody of Caylee, which caused Casey to storm off for the night of June 15th. Cindy has now told Casey that they have had it with her and she either moves out or she tows the line? I also believe that the argument was between Casey and Cindy. George was not at home until late. It has been speculated that Casey continued to string Amy along because she needed a built in babysitter but Amy is still staying with RM and Amy as per her statement to LE has not seen Caylee since June 9th and RM says he had not seen Caylee since June 10th. The question then become who was Caylee staying the nights with from June 9th or 10th if not Amy, RM, Tony & Casey or GA & CA. [It does not make any sense that GA & CA would come up with the June 9th date to begin with despite Casey’s saying she had not seen Caylee for 31 days on July 15th. The A’s had June 9th date set in their head because Caylee was no longer spending the nights at their house]
It is stated by Clint that he saw Caylee on June 13th and Christina on June 12th or 13th so Caylee was not missing yet.

How about this.
Week of June 2nd –June 9th

CA was not at work herself.
This ‘vacation’ came about because of funds found to missing from CA parent’s bank accounts.
This is the main reason for the confusion between the June 9th and June 15th date as being the last date CA saw Caylee. In CA original statement to LE she said June 9th and her statement at the bond hearing she says June 15th. CA makes the same distinction herself at the bond hearing since now LE has verified the June 15th via internal microchip in the camera that brings to light the June 15th date. CA used this vacation as her excuse of date mix up because she did not want to draw attention to Casey stealing money.

Casey had plans to use the stolen money for security and first months rent on a house with Amy.
Casey left Caylee with CA & GA a lot of the time while she was spending a lot of time with her new boyfriend Tony.

Sometime prior to mid month of May, most likely the early part or even the end of April the A’s found out about the theft of funds from CA’s father’s account. The nursing home or CA’s mother may have received a bank statement that showed the account had fraudulent activity when paying any monthly bills or while doing taxes. It is right around the May 19th the A’s found it was Casey who was responsible for this.
Supported by Ryan P.’s statement to LE that CA conversation with him she mentioned this theft and told him Casey was a sociopath. As per Ryan this conversation had been about 3 weeks before the date Caylee went missing which puts this date about May 19th using the original date of June 9th as when Caylee went missing. The A’s already knew Casey had stolen the money by May 19th and CA was gathering information about what else Casey had lied about. [If using the revised date of June 15th then the A’s already knew about the theft by May 26th.]

The use of sociopath by CA to Ryan P. and her warning to him to stay away from Casey would suggest that CA had already sought out professional mental council to determine what was wrong with Casey and that her behavior was not normal prior to May 19th.

Somewhere in the midst of this the A’s or at least CA took a stand with Casey and Casey made the decision that she was going to move out of the home. The fighting was over Caylee as well as Casey becoming responsible.
Casey’s was ‘looking’ for a guy to solve her problems. Give her a place to live so she did not have to live at home anymore and after meeting Tony she put all her effort into making this relationship the one that would save her. She starting dating him by the end of May and by the first week of June realized that Caylee was a problem.
Casey to continue with her plans of moving in with Tony now no longer needed Amy to share expenses of a house with her but she still needed Amy as a backup plan until she had Tony hooked. This created the second plan of Amy moving in with her at the A’s place.

A big fight between Casey and the A’s about the money stolen from CA parents came about just prior to or on the June 8th –9th weekend. Added to that was any animosity about Casey not taking care of Caylee and any other behavior. The A’s told Casey to get a job, get a place to live, grow up and be an adult so you are going to have to get a place of your own blah blah. They did not throw her out that weekend they just put their foot down that weekend. Casey comes up with the mini-vacation with Jeff H. as an excuse not to have to see or be with her parents [There is something that was said at the bond hearing that CA got the dates confused because she was just coming off of her own vacation June 9th] but instead starts spending nights with Tony. Big question is where was Caylee?
She goes back to her parents on Saturday June 14th and thinks she can get the A’s to relent and let her live there. She leaves Caylee with the A’s for the evening but she will be back later to pick her up. She does not come back to the house that night since she is staying with Tony... Casey’s plan to move in with Tony full time is a problem because of Caylee and she wants to be able to leave Caylee with her parents again just like she always done, since she does need a place to live. She has been spending every night with Tony but only has a change of clothes. She has to keep going back to the A’s for her clothes. She does this when they are not a home. When she doesn’t come back to the A’s house on Saturday June 14th this causes CA to become more angry, maybe GA & CA argue with each other over Casey and CA goes ahead and takes Caylee with her alone to see her father in the nursing home not even noting it was Father’s Day.
Casey finally comes back to the house the evening of June 15th, Father’s Day and the fit hits the shan all over again and now Casey is told that she is not going back to Tony’s she is staying in the house and minding Caylee and the normal fighting pattern of screaming and yelling turns into a physical altercation, hence the hands around the neck story that gets passed onto Lee most likely by Casey. [There also has to be enough history of Cindy getting physical in previous fights for Lee to buy this story] George is at work from 3 to 11 so he was not around to view the fireworks. His statement to LE about Casey being home that night is made on a presumption. [See transcript detail] The Cell pings have Casey in the area of the A’s all night, which also include Lee’s residence. Casey could have also been in car with Caylee somewhere in the neighbor that would show the same cell ping towers being used. The back and forth calls and texts between her and Tony show that she was not at Tony’s that night. I believe that Casey came back to the home to pack some of her things but this was after Cindy left for work in the morning. Casey would have avoided any confrontation with Cindy that morning.
Sometime during that night she had made up her mind to move in with Tony full time and she did not plan on taking Caylee with her. This is where I believe the fantasy thoughts of not having to be Caylee’s mother anymore turns into actual premeditation of murder. I also think that Casey may have fell asleep after coming back home after Cindy went to work on July 16 otherwise Casey would have attempted not have seen her father that day either. By George seeing them that day may have messed up Casey’s intent to put the blame on Cindy for Caylee death. I believe that Cindy is the one lying about tucking Casey and Caylee in at bed time Sunday night and hearing them Monday morning before she left for work.
When George sees Casey and Caylee on July 16th around 1:00PM he is again assuming that Casey had been there all night. I don’t believe George knew a thing about Casey and Cindy having a knock down drag out fight. [I think that George may not have found out about this fight for a number of weeks and that may explain his change in cooperation level with LE. He has to tow the Cindy line or he is on Cindy’s list.]
Casey leaves the house with Caylee at about 1:00PM just a GA says. There was something that was said or done or something that was odd that caused George go into ‘detective mode’ that day. Something important stood out to him to cause him to have a clear recollection of what both of them were wearing. I think that whatever that something was is what George is not telling the truth about now. I just haven’t been able to figure out yet what that would be. [Caylee’s sunglasses comes to mind but more thought about that later]
Here is where there are some more questions. Did Casey come back to house again after George leaves for work? Did Casey go to Lee’s? We know she was in the general area because of the cell pings but we cannot tell exactly where. She makes her now so-called flurry of phone calls. Her frustration mounts and she calls JG to complain about her parents just as she has always done. JG says he heard Caylee in the background that afternoon. This is the afternoon that Caylee dies. Did she die in the car, the house, the pool, somewhere else in the neighborhood, at Lee’s? This is where the timeline for death and disposal starts.

Transcript detail
George Anthony Interview with LE on August 4, 2008

LE: seeing the baby put to bed that night or where you working?
GA: I, I was working.
LE: Okay.
GA: I was working 3 to 11.
LE: Okay. When you came home who was at the house at that time do you actually remembering seeing...?
GA: Well I, I’m, I’m almost positive that uh, Casey’s car was in the driveway and I would lead to believe then that they where both there, Casey and Caylee, I know my wife was there because I got home just shortly after 11:00PM. And the next morning, or lets put it this way, like 10 minuets to 1 that afternoon on the 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together, they’re both leaving with backpacks …..
Page 2013 Lines 14-25
 
Sorry, but where was Caylee in all of this? Could she have been another factor in the fight. Could she have said something that made Cindy go into "Mother Bear" mode and go after Casey even more? Sorry this is not fact but I wonder where that sweet baby was during all of this craziness.

I, too, believe that something about Caylee may have played a role in this fight. Whether Caylee said something that really set CA off, or if KC did or said something we may never know. I think that CA is probably feeling a lot of guilt as though this may have been the reason for the following events and that is why she is now taking up for KC with such a vengeance. I do not believe for one second that she has always felt that Caylee was alive. She HOPED it, yes, and she probably prayed with every breathe that she was somewhere ok, but I think that deep down, both CA & GA have known all along that something was very wrong. They just couldn't bring themselves to admit that their daughter was capable of something so heinous. I doubt that many of us could. The stolen money from grandma's account may have started the fight, but I think something else occurred along with it having to do with that baby, and since CA was more of a mother figure to her than KC ever was, she lost it.
 
Why? Why? Why?(I try to put myself inside her head.)The responsibility of Caylee was getting in her way..but going to this extreme doesn't make sense unless there is money to be gained.Sympathy,freedom from the responsibility , freedom to be single, unattached, able to go, and do .No more Cindy and George(she was making plans to move out with someone,AMY,Toni,Will, Jesse but she needed money .Could the mystery be pure ol fashion greed. She mentioned $15000. Could she have had an insurance policy on Caylee???
Did Ga,Ca, or Casey have a life insurance policy on Caylee?
 
I posted this last night in another thread. I now have strong suspicions that KC abused Caylee all along, she knew better than to leave any marks though.
I have a strong feeling she made her pay by slapping her around and depriving her when nobody was looking. Only God knows what that little girl suffered before hand.
I agree.... and definite emotional abuse... narcissistic parents are NOTORIOUS for emotional abuse by neglecting their children by ignoring them, and not wanting to have anything to do with them, talking negative about them behind their backs and to their face... UNLESS someone else is watching them and then they become the "good parent" in front of others. This is only a performance and really confuses the child.... the parent performs in front of others because it's necessary to maintain their image they've created, however, the child is in a constant state of confusion because the only time the parent is nice to them is when others are around. This behavior can also be confusing to others as well if they are not knowledgable of the abuse of narcissism.
 
Why? Why? Why?(I try to put myself inside her head.)The responsibility of Caylee was getting in her way..but going to this extreme doesn't make sense unless there is money to be gained.Sympathy,freedom from the responsibility , freedom to be single, unattached, able to go, and do .No more Cindy and George(she was making plans to move out with someone,AMY,Toni,Will, Jesse but she needed money .Could the mystery be pure ol fashion greed. She mentioned $15000. Could she have had an insurance policy on Caylee???
Did Ga,Ca, or Casey have a life insurance policy on Caylee?
 
this is why i can't believe anything that comes out of the A's mouth. it seems like common knowledge that this fight happened. yet on dateline, CA says that they had a great fathers day dinner and everyone loves each other and they all went to bed loving and hugging and happy... still with the lies. its there cell phone pings that show that KC wasnt in the house that night? didnt the young neighbor say he could hear those two fighting that night?
this is also why GA did not see them on the 16th. but what gets me is, he is telling the police that this was the last time he saw them and GA will usually tell the police the truth, after lying about everything in public (ex. the decomp smell in the trunk and knowing that KC didnt have a job). i wonder why he is sticking to this.
it seems like they are hurting KC with their lies instead of helping her, if thats what they think they are doing. this fight could have been taped and CA will still deny it ever happened.
 
If it is true that CA had sought counseling (why not both CA and GA?) the advice was to ask KC to leave home, assuming KC would not voluntarily hand over custody of Caylee even temporarily (proven to be true), then I asume Anthonys would file for custody IF KC was unable to properly care for Caylee. And all indications would certainly point to KCs inability to do that for the short term - her lies, her thefts, I’m sure by this point the Anthony’s knew in their heart she wasn’t working (GA as much as admitted it on FBI tapes).

To me these plans seem reasonable because I think the Anthonys felt they had exhausted all efforts to help KC be more responsible while she was living under their roof. It wasn’t working. What’s next? For KC to learn what the real world was like. I’m sure thousands of other unwed mothers would trade their world in a moment for the living arrangements afforded to KC, and would work hard and save money towards eventually making it on their own. But not KC.

GA and CA had been separated for a period of time in the past, and certainly having to deal with a grown child who holds them hostage through their granddaughter added to their own personal strife. KC was now 22 years old. The home situation was getting even worse - stealing money from a grandfathers nursing home account. Good grief that’s heartless. How does a parent come to terms with that? Parents who cope through denial (and we all do at times) can deal with all kinds of unacceptable behavior but it’s often something that hits from the “outside” when the light really goes on. And by all accounts it was the nursing home who advised Anthonys of the theft, they didn’t discover it themselves.

So if there was a BIG FIGHT, what was it about? IMO the theft from the nursing home account was the final straw that triggered Anthonys to demand that KC pack her stuff and move out. That they would keep Caylee until KC was able to support her daughter but they wanted that nailed down in a temporary legal arrangement. Of course KC was left with only a “poor KC” version that she told others - her mother grabbed her by the throat. They wanted Caylee but not her? I can the KCs of this world becoming totally enraged over that. So then she took Caylee away...

That is simply where my imagination takes me, but I do think something very significant happened. If, at any point along the way, KC had admitted to what she did to Caylee, none of this would be on the table. But she won’t admit anything, and I doubt she ever will. This must be pure torture on her parents. KC is forcing her parents to “tell all” first, which puts her parents at the centre of a murder trial for the grandchild they loved. Did their actions “cause” KC to do what she did. Of course not. But l firmly believe this is where her defense lawyers will take this.

No parents with a deadbeat daughter in this situation could possibly predict their actions would lead to murder of an innocent and much loved grandchild, and that’s what makes this all so tragic.
 
I think KC tolerated Caylee and played the mom role as a meal ticket. She knew her family would put up with alot not to lose Caylee. If CA threatened to take Caylee away, it was going to be the end of KC's meal ticket. KC no longer had use for Caylee. And the clincher for KC was, how dare they pick Caylee over her. KC took care of the problem as any sociopath would. People are objects. A useless broken object goes into the garbage without a second thought.
 
Not sure were to put this post kinda goes in Nacey Grace, light bulbs moments and here as I think PaddieAB touched on it in the above post.

On Nancey Grace last night she asked JG why they broke up and he said KC initiated it because she felt JG loved Caylee more than her, then PaddieAB touched on that same theme above with CA may have told KC to leave but she could leave Caylee with them thus sending the message that Caylee was more important. Again with the you love Caylee more than me in KC's mind. We all say things in anger we wish we could take back when we level out again and IMO I would imagine CA said something to that effect that Caylee was more important and more loved than KC thus triggering KC to get rid of her competition. I think that KC always was to be the center of attention and was tired of sharing the spotlight with Caylee.
 
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