Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[Whisperer]

I'm with ya' on this. GA never saw them on the 16th, IMO. And, CA's attmepts to make that evening the picture of coziness smacks of B.S. to me and points to a desire to cover up what she may feel was the impetus for the murder. I disagree that it was the sole impetus. I think the murder was planned long before, but perhaps that was casey's last straw. In any event, can you imagine casey the 22 year old party girl being tucked into bed with the baby by her mom? Give me a break! casey probably surfed the internet for hours, long after everyone else went to bed, on nights she was not out bedding every man she met. No way was grandma tucking her in like she's 12.

kc was on the phone with TL or texting TL for 7 hour starting at 7:30 on the 15th....amazing, I know. Hard to believe TL doesn't have more info. She had to be sooooooo pissed!

 

[Whisperer]

I posted this last night in another thread. I now have strong suspicions that KC abused Caylee all along, she knew better than to leave any marks though.
I have a strong feeling she made her pay by slapping her around and depriving her when nobody was looking. Only God knows what that little girl suffered before hand.

_____________
kc is cruel, goes with the personality, when no one is looking...she made sure there were no marks. She may have done other things. CA should have had a cam set up for THAT nanny.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Per Cindy's brother Rick, the fight was because CA was pissed off at KC for stealing money from CA's parents.

Do we know when Casey stole that money? For some reason, I'm under the impression it was long before June 15th and therefore was not 'new' news or something to fight about at that time.

 

[Leila]

I totally believe this fight happened just exactly how it has been rumored. CA confronted KA about the stealing from GP's, got really loud and ugly, KA took Caylee and left. They did not stay the night there. GA did not see them the next day. KA waited till she knew everyone was away from the house that afternoon and then went back to get some things, wanted to go out that night, somehow (still not sure) she killed (drugged) Caylee, left her in the trunk, yada, yada, it's been discussed somewhere on here I know.
Anyway, GP's feel very guilty, esp. CA, she thinks she pushed KA to the edge. I believe CA has tremendous amount of guilt.

I also believe this fight happened exactly as has been rumored. Very early on in this case when Greta was reporting on the latest developments every night, Mark Fuhrman was on the scene in Orlando doing some investigation. He was the first to mentioned that Casey borrowed a shovel from the neighbor, and that later proved to be true. He later reported that he had interviewed a neighbor who reported a big fight at the Anthony home on the night of June 15th - Fathers Day. The neighbor reported that there was a lot of yelling and foul language.

It was later that LP said that Lee told him that there had been a fight on June 15th, and later still that JG said Lee had told him of the fight. So there seems to be the basis for this rumor to be accurate.

There had to be something that triggered what happened, and I think this fight between Cindy and Casey is the catalyst for Caylee's death. I believe that Casey, in a rage over the fight, left home with Caylee and killed her that night or in the wee hours of the next day.

George was working on June 15th from 3:00pm to 11:00pm and evidently was not there when the fight took place. I think Cindy told him what happened - that she and Casey had a fight and that Casey had taken Caylee and left. They probably both felt that Casey and Caylee would return after Casey had calmed down. When more than two weeks had passed and Casey and Caylee hadn't returned, I think that's what prompted Cindy to write that entry on her MySpace page lamenting the fact that her granddaughter was missing from her life due to jealousy.

When the events of July 15th happened - retrieving the Pontiac from the impound yard, finding Casey but not Caylee, and Casey's lie about the nanny kidnapping Caylee, George and Cindy decided to come up with a story to cover up the fight that happened on June 15th that prompted Casey to take Caylee and leave.

I don't believe George's story about seeing Casey and Caylee on June 16th, as if it were any other normal day, nor do I believe Cindy's story that she heard Casey and Caylee in their bedroom before she left for work that day. I think this is where the cover-up began.

 

[debs]

Do we know when Casey stole that money? For some reason, I'm under the impression it was long before June 15th and therefore was not 'new' news or something to fight about at that time.

Even so, Chilly, it doesn't mean that grandma didn't say something to Cindy about it that day. It's for sure it was a bone of contention between Rick and Cindy around that time. It is no doubt one of many things that were boiling up with regard to Casey's behavior. I would not be so quick to grab it as the sole reason for a fight, however.

 

[sometimer]

These are all very interesting theories. I wonder if the fight may have been a little bit different. What if Casey was told they would no longer babysit Caylee? CA may have told her that it was her responsibility. CA would be very reluctant to admit this. She may have believed this would force her to accept more responsibility and take care of Caylee, rather than running around and partying all of the time. This could be the reason they bought the nanny story for so long and they were not too worried at first when they hadn't seen Caylee for a while. They may have believed that they had finally gotten through to her and she was taking full responsibility. Casey knowing she had no one to pawn Caylee off on anymore decided now was the time to proceed with her plan.

 

[amethyst221]

I never had the impression that the happening of the fight was that much in doubt. The neighbor testified to hearing it and members of the A family initially discussed it with others (unless all the others, who made the claims at various times, are lying). Only later, as with the smell of death in the car statements, did the story apparently change. It seems that CA was on Casey's case, maybe about the new BF, her hours and how she was dealing with Caylee. What about the story that she was being counseled by a psychologist or therapist on how to confront Casey, to seek or threaten to seek custody of Caylee? It doesn't seem that all of CA's discoveries about Casey happened only after she left with Caylee. I thought there was actual testimony that the money stolen from the CA's parents (was it both birthday money and another check????) was discussed at the FD visit. Maybe that's apochryphal. It seems as if a lot of things were coming together that led to some sort of implosion.

 

[SuziQ]

Do we know when Casey stole that money? For some reason, I'm under the impression it was long before June 15th and therefore was not 'new' news or something to fight about at that time.

IIRC, the papa's nursing home theft was recent. The others regarding Shirley's bank accounts were prior. Don't hold me to that though, my memory is good, but not that good.

 

[SuziQ]

I also recall from Rick and maybe also Shirley, it was confirmed that Shirley did confront Cindy about the money stolen. This is when CA and Caylee went to Shirley's for dinner.

 

[K9 5er]

What grounds would a grandparent have to have in order to assume custody?

 

[Chezhire]

I found it very interesting when JG said on NG last night that KC broke off their engagement because she accused him of loving Caylee more than her. This is the same thing she seemed to feel about her parents. I see a motive. She may have seen the child as competition for her role as princess. Just my opinion.

Hi Simonsmom,
You're in good company with your assessment.
A lot of other WSers believe the same thing.

 

[amethyst221]

I think they would have to petition a court and try to show that the sole custodial parent was unfit. I guess that could be because of neglect, abuse, lifestyle, etc. Then they would try to get custody for themselves.

If CA was thinking of this at all, then it doesn't jibe with her later claims that Casey was Mother of the Year material.

I don't know if we'll ever know if CA was just generally over Casey's irresponsible behavior, or whether there was something else more specific that she had learned or feared.

 

[Chezhire]

I agree that the fight took place as rumored. But why would GA feel the need to lie about the 16th if Casey left the night before? I think it's possible something happened to Caylee inside the Anthony home and that is why they have helped cover evidence and have lied to police. I think it's very possible Caylee never left their home alive after the 15th.

The only problem with this analysis is that it doesn't then explain why Cindy later, on July 15, called 911 and finally says her granddaughter's missing and that it smells like there's been a dead body in the car. She wouldn't have been alerting LE if she knew what had happened to Caylee because it happened in her home the night of June 15/morning of June 16. (Unless you're thinking that Cindy was unaware about what happened to Caylee... then you start getting into the arena of what, if anything George did after June 15/16 re: a cover up, which I've posted about quite a bit over the past month...)

 

[ziggy]

Just have to throw this is...

I disagree that CA is feeling any guilt, even tho. it could have been this fight that lead KC to become Queen.

CA does not do anything wrong. See? It's that personality disorder. Now she will lie to make it seem like she never did anything wrong and she will believe those lies. It's part of the problem.

 

[Hermione]

What grounds would a grandparent have to have in order to assume custody?

I personally know of a case in NC where paternal grandparents who are stable and well off, did everything they could in court to get custody of their grandchild, whose mother was pretty well unfit- she used drugs and wasn't responsible however they were told in the end result that they had no grounds for custody at all.

I don't know how state law varies but I think it takes a really extreme situation and last resort for grandparents to get custody unless both parents sign it over willingly. I think even in the case of drugs or abuse the law kind of favors it takes a lot. Which is not really right but if it wasn't this way, IMO the law would be abused by grandparents who overstep boundaries (and I don' say this because of my own issues, I think it's true- I know of cases where if they could, people would take over their grandkids when there is nothing wrong with the parents, it's just that the grandkids aren't being raised the way THEY think they should...different religion or other such thing.

Back on topic, in this case, I do NOT think CA/GA were best for custody- I believe in my heart Caylee would have had a better life adopted out. JMO. CA exhibits some issues like KC does.

 

[Lovejac]

IIRC, Turbothink did some sleuthing re: the July 16th, "supposed sighting by George" and after looking at the e-pass records, it was determined that he and his car went through a toll around the same time as he "saw" casey and Caylee leaving the house.

 

[Janis396]

IIRC, Turbothink did some sleuthing re: the July 16th, "supposed sighting by George" and after looking at the e-pass records, it was determined that he and his car went through a toll around the same time as he "saw" casey and Caylee leaving the house.

Actually, I think that was a mistake....the records Turbo had referenced were actually from July, not June.

 

[Chezhire]

SNIPPED: " By June 9th she has started to stay with Tony every night but Caylee is not.
June 8th –14th what is Casey telling the A’s about where Caylee is? This entire week is very unclear because everybody else thinks that Caylee is with G& C or the nanny but Cindy is not saying what she knows but for all intents and purposes Caylee does not seem to be with them either due to some of the comments that they have made. . . . "

I believe that Cindy simply had the June 9/June 16 dates confused initially, and I believe that Caylee was always at the Anthony home with her grandparents when Casey was at Tony's, right up until June 15/16, when she died.

 

[MsBashterd]

These are all very interesting theories. I wonder if the fight may have been a little bit different. What if Casey was told they would no longer babysit Caylee? CA may have told her that it was her responsibility. CA would be very reluctant to admit this. She may have believed this would force her to accept more responsibility and take care of Caylee, rather than running around and partying all of the time. This could be the reason they bought the nanny story for so long and they were not too worried at first when they hadn't seen Caylee for a while. They may have believed that they had finally gotten through to her and she was taking full responsibility. Casey knowing she had no one to pawn Caylee off on anymore decided now was the time to proceed with her plan.

Interesting I haven't ever really thought of it that way possible :waitasec:. I guess IMO I always have seen it as CA wanting to basically have Caylee without Casey. I think she was onto KC's games, lies, and otherwise psycho behavior and wanted Caylee for herself, kinda a second chance of raising another daughter (maybe not so wacko). But in this family that seems to hardly be possible. I think CA has some control issues and Caylee fell into her wanting the ultimate control of her GD, and KC using Caylee as the ultimate weapon against her mom. I guess I always see the fight that night as centering around this issue. Casey had to get out and CA was going to keep Caylee kinda like out with the old in with the new. KC grabs Calyee and runs and takes care of that problem that evening or early am.

As always poor precious baby caught in the crossfire of this kinda dysfunction :cry:

Just my opinion and oh have I been wrong before :crazy:

 

[impatientredhead]

I believe that Cindy simply had the June 9/June 16 dates confused initially, and I believe that Caylee was always at the Anthony home with her grandparents when Casey was at Tony's, right up until June 15/16, when she died.

Tony says in his statement in the last document release that Casey did NOT sleep at his house the 9-13th of June. Her first overnighter there without Caylee is the 14th, according to Tony. The night before the fight. She is then there from the 16th on excluding the days he goes out of town.

I think the fight is the precursor to Caylee's death, but growing up in a household with a mother a lot like Cindy I think what everyone may be missing is that this fight was probably not unlike many before it. We had regular knock down drag out fights in my mother's house, and they really didn't have to be over something major. And they frequently turned physical.

It goes like this, something small happens (or is perceived to have happened) that borderline mom feels wrongs her. The fight starts about that and then quickly morphs to old well tread areas of bigger past grievance (real or imagined). I think this kind of thing went on all the time. Think of the anger you see in George, Lee, Cindy, and Casey's attitude towards her mother in that first call.

Cindy is hateable, I agree with that, I get that, but I truly think what changed for Casey was the belief that she could go run around with Tony and his friends, don't want to be mother, hate your own mother, dream of getting out, fight happens, emotions high....