Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[marlap]

I don't think Casey was petrified of her mother or anyone else. I think her parents were petrified of her. Go back and listen to those first jail phone calls with her mother, the ones when she didn't know she was being recorded. Does Casey sound petrified? Who is talking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, appeasing, and who is being sarcastic, hateful and disdainful?

I agree completely. Casey saying that to LE, that she was petrified of her mothers' reaction, was KC spin.

I bet she used Caylee as an emotional bargaining chip for Caylee's whole life.

Free place to live, free food, free utilities...all for Caylee and to keep Caylee close and Casey took full advantage.

 

[OneLostGrl]

There's alot of good points made here..Nice to see a spirited exchange without attacks to each other. God knows as a single parent I have made my share of mistakes raising my kids. I think the bottom line for me is that KC IS an adult and must take responsibility for her own actions. I remember my son always blaming someone or something for his mistakes and it took alot of talking to him to make him realize that his actions were his own and as long as he was willing to pay the consequences for them it was up to him how he chose to behave.

And that is why we must teach them these things while they are children. By the time they are adults they will be used to facing the consequences of their actions.

I was one of the ones who never had to face any, I had a mother like Cindy who wanted to fix everything that happened to me (she refused to see that it was I that was creating everything bad that happened- ya know, like everyone here keeps calling DENIAL in Cindy?!) and it teaches nothing other than you can do whatever you want to do, lie to whoever you want to and get away with it. By the time you are an adult you master these skills that were given to you unknowingly by your parents in childhood.

 

[kageykaren]

I am so glad that KC hasn't mentioned watching, "Dexter". Hopefully CA isn't playing the role that Harry, dexters father portrays. Harry is forced to teach his psychopath son honorable survival techniques. I don't feel either CA or GA new just how bad things had gotten with their daughter before the crime. It appears they had just started on a road of so many things hitting them in the face concerning KC behavior. The parents were so busy in their own adult world of problems that they didn't initially catch onto her delinquent behvior & when they did KC was out of there!!! and gave them a Christmas memory that will haunt them for eternity. KC committed the ultimate hate crime.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

It also makes me wonder WHEN this exchange actually took place between Casey and Cindy and if this wasn't what the fight was really about instead of mundane issues such as checks etc. I also think that Cindy holds many of the answers here as to what truly happened to Caylee.

"There IS NO evidence", Cindy stated on the stand at the first bond hearing. Those words, among many other comments, continue to ring in my ears.

Those words haunt me also. I believe the fight was over something Caylee told Cindy about what KC was doing. I don't believe it had anything to do with money. I believe that is why Caylee was killed, she was telling too much.

I do blame CA because she allowed KC to lie, then covered up KC's lies. I believe the baby would have been found almost immediately if CA had told the truth. In her way, she covered up as much as she could. She washed the clothes, the knife, and God only knows what else in that house. I believe in the trial we will see she covered up much more than we had ever imagined.

If she had given Tim the clothes of Caylee to search, his search dogs may have found Caylee then. She refused. She refused to allow anyone (including her own family) to bring out the truth.

She will have her own h*ll to live after this, but I do believe after the trial she will be prosecuted.

 

[reeseeva]

"Quote to Lee when he asked her how she felt about Mom calling the police " Maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

Why Casey lied....."Casey said she was "petrified" of her mother's reaction and that she would never forgive her."

reeseeva and Seriously, to me these two comments perfectly illustrate KCs blame-game against her mother, which was my point that KC needs to take responsibility and QUIT BLAMING. It's also at the heart of the hold she has/had over her CA. CA simply can do no right, regardless of what she does.

It's her mothers fault for not calling the police a long time ago? CA did call the police, but it's just that she didn't call at the right time? So now KC won't tell the truth, because why, she's punishing her mom for not calling sooner? Huh?:waitasec: She's not telling the truth because she has not been forced into that corner yet! Repeating her familiar pattern of behavior. It's has been proven to have worked well for her.

KC strings people along with a fabricated story. Then she admits she lied ONLY when she's forced in a corner. But all she can come up with, to continue to hide the truth behind what she's done is "mommy's going to be mad at me"? If my memory serves me correctly, even the investigators looked baffled at that one.

"Maybe this should have been done a long time ago" I feel means A Long Time Ago, such as not buying her lies & fabrications.....Very self-revealing! I'm not saying she is directly blaming her mother, but rather subconciously, she has no respect for her mother in being able to "pull the wool over her eyes" so easily, for many years. I feel, IMHO, Casey has been screaming to be STOPPED for "a long time" I'm not blaming Cindy either, but I feel she shelved alot of red flags in Casey's behavior for years. It takes alot of energy to stay on top of things. Cindy did the right thing when calling & making her statement about the car, & for some reason, I felt that Casey, deep down, really respected her for it(she should have stayed on that path) but, then reverted back to warrior robotmom defending her lying daughter.....& they both know it!

The Love/Hate thing: She loves her as her Mother/ She hates her for believing her Lies! Just my opinion & I'm always open to alternative theorys!"

"Your Mind is like a Parachute, It Only Works When It's OPEN"

 

[indicat]

And that is why we must teach them these things while they are children. By the time they are adults they will be used to facing the consequences of their actions.

I was one of the ones who never had to face any, I had a mother like Cindy who wanted to fix everything that happened to me (she refused to see that it was I that was creating everything bad that happened- ya know, like everyone here keeps calling DENIAL in Cindy?!) and it teaches nothing other than you can do whatever you want to do, lie to whoever you want to and get away with it. By the time you are an adult you master these skills that were given to you unknowingly by your parents in childhood.

I agree with you. One day our children will have no choice but to face their consequences and like CA and GA now, there is nothing to be done to get them out of the trouble they may be in. I truly believe this is why she had no idea everyone wasn't going to go along with her stories and lies, that was all she had known before. And as for the judgeing, please....its not judgeing to look at situation and form opinions on what was right and what was wrong and to see where things went wrong, its just the popular and politically correct way to not say things how they really are, or say anything that might offend or hurt someone's feelings. The facts are she never had to take responsibility for her actions and she was hugely enabled in her life...and there is a lesson to be learned.

 

[Gma Kat]

Those words haunt me also. I believe the fight was over something Caylee told Cindy about what KC was doing. I don't believe it had anything to do with money. I believe that is why Caylee was killed, she was telling too much.

I do blame CA because she allowed KC to lie, then covered up KC's lies. I believe the baby would have been found almost immediately if CA had told the truth. In her way, she covered up as much as she could. She washed the clothes, the knife, and God only knows what else in that house. I believe in the trial we will see she covered up much more than we had ever imagined.

If she had given Tim the clothes of Caylee to search, his search dogs may have found Caylee then. She refused. She refused to allow anyone (including her own family) to bring out the truth.

She will have her own h*ll to live after this, but I do believe after the trial she will be prosecuted.

Bold is mine:

It really does seem plausible now that Caylee was starting to talk about what KC was up to. Perhaps Caylee exposed some lies innocently enough through questioning or spontaneously.

I think KC was terrified of CA but somehow thought she was smarter and could circumvent her control when she took off with Caylee. I agree totally that CA obstructed the investigation deliberately.

I am beginning to wonder if there was a confession by KC early on and because CA feels culpable she chose to cover up to either save KC or save KC and herself? If she was indeed a control freak wouldn't she then also take on responsibility for actions those under her control did?

 

[reeseeva]

And that is why we must teach them these things while they are children. By the time they are adults they will be used to facing the consequences of their actions.

I was one of the ones who never had to face any, I had a mother like Cindy who wanted to fix everything that happened to me (she refused to see that it was I that was creating everything bad that happened- ya know, like everyone here keeps calling DENIAL in Cindy?!) and it teaches nothing other than you can do whatever you want to do, lie to whoever you want to and get away with it. By the time you are an adult you master these skills that were given to you unknowingly by your parents in childhood.

OneLostGirl.......These really are skills given to you Unknowingly by your parents.

Both of my sons are in Genetics, & a couple of years ago one gave me a book called "The Memes" It is fascinating, about how we inheret the genes from both parents, but this study was about the Memes, which are what we see, hear, think & feel, etc., in our formative years from our parents, & are just as powerful as the genes we are born with.

 

[Anais]

I am not going to argue with you and I stand my every word I have said about what ALL parents need to do to teach their children right from wrong. Don't do it, do what The A's have done and watch what happens to the children. I do not need hindsight, it is PROVEN!

I have said time and again that I do not fault cindy or George for Caylee's death.

:clap: OneLostGrl great post and I musy say I agree with you 100%! Our children are who we are, and they are representative of our actions and us as their role models. As a mother (and grandma) of a grown daughter with a child of her own, and three grown boys all children out of college except for my baby whose a freshie this year one thing that we have taught them is respect, honesty and integrity. The simple fact of the matter is that Casey has led a free wheeling lifestyle without the solid necessities of life being taught to her. Right and wrong, truth, choices and consequences both the good and the bad, and of course the very ugly. There are no consequences for her rights or wrongs, only excuses, spinning stories and manipulations of truths, and half truths.

We have also always, always taught them that for every action there are consequences-good and bad. Don't follow through with something unless you are willing to step up and be honest, and then accept the responsibility for the consequences of your actions! It is following through with life choices good and bad.

The trouble is that it is very apparent that CA and GA have covered for Casey her entire life. Even now when I believe that they fully know what she's done and capable of. IMO they are just unwilling to face it themselves. I've watched all of the LE/FBI interviews, jailhouse visits videos, and phone calls. It is uncomfortably apparent that CA will go to any length to buy into Casey's wad of B.S. and even eggs it on at times. The two of them play a guilt-blame and manipulation game which has had dire consequences.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

OneLostGirl.......These really are skills given to you Unknowingly by your parents.

Both of my sons are in Genetics, & a couple of years ago one gave me a book called "The Memes" It is fascinating, about how we inheret the genes from both parents, but this study was about the Memes, which are what we see, hear, think & feel, etc., in our formative years from our parents, & are just as powerful as the genes we are born with.

Great book! Another one which is making it's way into psychology classrooms today is "Virus of the Mind" by Richard Brodie.

 

[Jolynna]

Nor can anyone say it would have been a good thing for CA to be raising Caylee herself.
I dont see that KC is such a fine upstanding citizen that society would want another potential timebomb on its hands in twenty years time.
I realise that as adults, we all paddle our own canoe, and even if your ubringing has been less than adequate or fortunate, it is still in your own hands how you play out your adult life, but I think that a lot of CAs parenting of KC shows through in what everyone sees before them.

:twocents:

The world is full of worthwhile people who come from dysfunctional families. None of them probably would choose to have been killed as children and to have lost the opportunities and lives they are enjoying now.

Antisocial Personality Disorder, the more modern term for sociopath, can't be fixed by meds or therapy. The symptoms don't start until after age 15. It is difficult to diagnose. One sibling can have it and other children from the same family may be fully functional.

Caylee may have grown up to be another Michelangelo, a world star ballerina, an inventor, a researcher who would discover the cure for cancer, a movie star or a happy wife and mother. Caylee will never, ever read a novel, go to school, have a best friend, go on a date, recieve a first kiss, fall in love, receive a diploma, get a gold star, or hold her own child.

That Caylee's never will have a chance to experience all of life's joys and realize her potential is a tragedy. She didn't even get to have a third birthday or see Santa this year.

 

[Fandy]

I don't think Casey was petrified of her mother or anyone else. I think her parents were petrified of her. Go back and listen to those first jail phone calls with her mother, the ones when she didn't know she was being recorded. Does Casey sound petrified? Who is talking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, appeasing, and who is being sarcastic, hateful and disdainful?

I thought this is the REAL Casey talking, before she knew we would hear her. I heard much weariness in Cindy's voice trying to reason with her, what I heard from Casey was her self-proclaimed"spiteful " personality coming through loud and clear. She certainly felt *entitled*, blaming the police for daring to arrest her "on a whim".

From listening to this conversation, I don't think Cindy was actually yet digesting/processing that Caylee really could be dead, (despite the odor) by Casey's own hand, the horror show that went on for 6 months was just starting.

Cindy doesn't want the public to know the details of their home life and Casey's real behavior, but i think we all agree that she was a source of anguish for the entire family, just from the remarks made from George and Lee also....Lee telling her that she is again upsetting Mom, George telling the police in one of his interviews how her behavior "pushes to the limit".

If they didn't clean up her messes she most likely would have been arrested and they would have been given custody by the state...(but again, i also have great hindsight).

although i have no great sympathy for George and Cindy's actions, I think their guilt will stay with them longer than Casey's jail sentence. as always, JMHO

 

[maur33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
Cindy can't even think that Casey may have hurt Caylee, because in her subsconscience, she thinks it's her fault..if only she hadn't etc.
Without professional help, I don't think Cindy will ever be able to accept the truth. The only thing she has to hold onto is her little Casey and the lie..otherwise, she'll lose her mind.
How can she accept the truth that her own daughter she adored could hurt Caylee? How can she rationalize all of this, knowing she was the one forcing Casey to grow up, which resulted in Caylee's death.
I can't see Cindy ever coming to terms with the truth.
^i^This is how I've felt since DAY ONE. <kimster>

Yeah .... thank God for that therapy working out real good!! I'm sure Cindy appreciates it!!
:bang: :bang:

Recently I have been thinking about this therapist that cindy went to and I can't hardly believe that this person actually told cindy to throw inmate casey and baby Caylee out and to not support them.

Either this therapist was completely incompetent or cindy did not tell this person the complete truth about inmate casey. What kind of therapist tells someone to throw her disturbed, out of control daughter with her grandbaby out of the house. That was such a dangerous suggestion it borders on insane.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't think Casey was petrified of her mother or anyone else. I think her parents were petrified of her. Go back and listen to those first jail phone calls with her mother, the ones when she didn't know she was being recorded. Does Casey sound petrified? Who is talking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, appeasing, and who is being sarcastic, hateful and disdainful?

While this is true, it doesn't mean that Casey wouldn't talk like that if she felt she had something to hold over Cindy. :X

 

[gardenhart]

The world is full of worthwhile people who come from dysfunctional families. None of them probably would choose to have been killed as children and to have lost the opportunities and lives they are enjoying now.

Antisocial Personality Disorder, the more modern term for sociopath, can't be fixed by meds or therapy. The symptoms don't start until after age 15. It is difficult to diagnose. One sibling can have it and other children from the same family may be fully functional.

Caylee may have grown up to be another Michelangelo, a world star ballerina, an inventor, a researcher who would discover the cure for cancer, a movie star or a happy wife and mother. Caylee will never, ever read a novel, go to school, have a best friend, go on a date, recieve a first kiss, fall in love, receive a diploma, get a gold star, or hold her own child.

That Caylee's never will have a chance to experience all of life's joys and realize her potential is a tragedy. She didn't even get to have a third birthday or see Santa this year.

Actually, I thought Oppositional Defiant Disorder or ODD was considered to the the childhood version of, precursor to, Antisocial Personality Disorder if untreated.

But then unlike so many here, I'm no professional psychiatrist.

 

[gardenhart]

I thought this is the REAL Casey talking, before she knew we would hear her. I heard much weariness in Cindy's voice trying to reason with her, what I heard from Casey was her self-proclaimed"spiteful " personality coming through loud and clear. She certainly felt *entitled*, blaming the police for daring to arrest her "on a whim".

From listening to this conversation, I don't think Cindy was actually yet digesting/processing that Caylee really could be dead, (despite the odor) by Casey's own hand, the horror show that went on for 6 months was just starting.

Cindy doesn't want the public to know the details of their home life and Casey's real behavior, but i think we all agree that she was a source of anguish for the entire family, just from the remarks made from George and Lee also....Lee telling her that she is again upsetting Mom, George telling the police in one of his interviews how her behavior "pushes to the limit".

If they didn't clean up her messes she most likely would have been arrested and they would have been given custody by the state...(but again, i also have great hindsight).

although i have no great sympathy for George and Cindy's actions, I think their guilt will stay with them longer than Casey's jail sentence. as always, JMHO

I thought it sounded exactly like the parent of a tantrum prone brat trying to appease them into behaving. Except Casey is an adult and not a child.

 

[Jolynna]

WELL DAMAGED CHILDREN, grown up into broken dysfunctional adults trying to masquerade to the world as together and 'normal' (whatever that is!) and the world is full of dysfunctional people - most just dont kill their children.
Yes you are very right there - Cindy is very much shown up for who she is :snake: and thats why I dont really understand anyone who says that she has such good intent, or how different it would have been had she raised Caylee and run KC off - I dont think any of them was in a good mental space to raise a child

As an adult who has been diagnosed with PTSD, I gotta say I ABSOLUTELY CHOOSE life.

YES...yes...yes, Caylee would have been better off being raised by Cindy than dead wrapped in trash bags and duct tape.

 

[MsMacGyver]

And that is why we must teach them these things while they are children. By the time they are adults they will be used to facing the consequences of their actions.

I was one of the ones who never had to face any, I had a mother like Cindy who wanted to fix everything that happened to me (she refused to see that it was I that was creating everything bad that happened- ya know, like everyone here keeps calling DENIAL in Cindy?!) and it teaches nothing other than you can do whatever you want to do, lie to whoever you want to and get away with it. By the time you are an adult you master these skills that were given to you unknowingly by your parents in childhood.

I do agree with you Onelost girl..We should teach our children well..Trouble is everyone has their own definition of what that is. I worked with a woman and her son and everyday at lunch she would wait on him hand and foot and clean his area up after lunch. I would get so angry because I thought a good parent should teach their children to do for themselves and she thought she was being a good mom by doing everything for him. Some people are raised a certain way and carry that on to their children without ever questioning if it's right. CA might have believed she was doing the right thing and maybe she was. Who's to say things would have turned out the same way for KC despite her upbringing?

 

[Jolynna]

ITA! I hate to imagine the psychological damage the two of them would have caused Caylee over the years had she lived.

OneLostGrl,

You've admitted a less than ideal childhood...mine caused PTSD it was so severe.

But, damaged or not, I am still glad to be ALIVE. There is so much good and so much beauty in THIS world...I don't want to miss a single second of every moment here I can get.

You are a contribution to this world. I am proud of some of my accomplishments. Who knows what Caylee may have done?

Whatever the next world is...Caylee deserved to experience ALL of the joys of life here, too.

IMO

 

[gardenhart]

I do agree with you Onelost girl..We should teach our children well..Trouble is everyone has their own definition of what that is. I worked with a woman and her son and everyday at lunch she would wait on him hand and foot and clean his area up after lunch. I would get so angry because I thought a good parent should teach their children to do for themselves and she thought she was being a good mom by doing everything for him. Some people are raised a certain way and carry that on to their children without ever questioning if it's right. CA might have believed she was doing the right thing and maybe she was. Who's to say things would have turned out the same way for KC despite her upbringing?

You all could argue nature vs nurture all day to no real conclusion. The answer is most likely more along the lines of having a genetic disposition to any kind of disorder certainly isn't helped by lousy parenting. But then the lousy parents probably have the disorder or were raised by lousy parents with the same disorder. And so on through the generations.