Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[Brini]

It was interesting this AM on the Today show - a criminal profiler was on - she said that Casey is a classic psychopath - not to be looked at like a psychotic - a psychotic would say that the devil was after her child (aka Andrea Yates) and she would have to kill her daughter to save her - she didn't know right from wrong -

BUT a psychopath has zero empathy towards others and knows right from wrong- Caylee served as a prop when born 'Look was a wonderful mother I am' so she molded herself when with Jessie as this wonderful mother - it fit her needs at the time - when her needs changed, Casey morphed into something else - AT that time Caylee became a liability - Casey didn't need her anymore - Caylee was demanding as any child at that age - so Casey got rid of the liability - she didn't look at Caylee like her child someone to love, she was a demanding liability and she had to remove it so she could morph into her next phase.

This fits Casey very well - I thought about what the profiler said - it leans towards pre-meditation - get rid of the obstacle and move on - so thats why we see someone who doesn't have emotion towards the child, who thinks of herself - Casey is a psychopath

That's why she's so dangerous.

 

[Brini]

Let me give you something to chew on regarding Casey's hidden pregnancy. Way back when a co-worker stated that when Casey was showing, she told everyone that she had a tumor and was going to get rid of it. This was a long time ago and I do not remember where when or how this information came about. So it's pure rumor at this point. But how chilling if it's true! Was she planning on giving birth in secret and dumping Caylee in a dumpster somewhere?

Interesting! Never though of that!

Then, at Rick's wedding, the extended fam FORCED he issue..... The jig is up, on disposing of baby!

 

[H_Chick]

IMO, If anything, Cindy should have done something regarding Casey actions long before Caylee was even born.

Patty G, you said it.
Not only should CA have done something about Caseys behaviour long before Caylee was born, I am sorry to say, but it would honestly have been better for that poor little girl had she never been born.
It would have been a rugged ride psychologically for a child to live in that household, and then for her to have to exit this world in god only knows what manner.

:furious:

 

[H_Chick]

We need to remember there were reasons that it was suggested Cindy throw Casey out of her home. I can completely understand how Cindy might feel responsible but we cannot say that what happened wasn't inevitable. Caylee was at the age that it would have been impossible for Casey to continue her charade of having a job and any host of other lies she routinely told to her family and friends. Something was going to have to give. Again, we will never know for sure what might have been different but we also cannot say Cindy's tough love is what lead to Caylee's death.

Nor can anyone say it would have been a good thing for CA to be raising Caylee herself.
I dont see that KC is such a fine upstanding citizen that society would want another potential timebomb on its hands in twenty years time.
I realise that as adults, we all paddle our own canoe, and even if your ubringing has been less than adequate or fortunate, it is still in your own hands how you play out your adult life, but I think that a lot of CAs parenting of KC shows through in what everyone sees before them.

:twocents:

 

[H_Chick]

I didn't graduate from high school either. I left high school in my Junior year at the age of 16, to go to work to keep a roof over my head and my brother's as my mother tried to commit suicide.

I managed to get a great job, and my last poisition in life, I was the Executive Assistant to the President of a Chemical Company and then was Human Resource Manager later on within the company.

I got my FULL high school diploma when I was 45 and I will be 61. Just because someone doesn't have a high school diploma doesn't mean they can't go out and get a good job and earn good wages.

Well said Patty G.
Even if your career is "do you want fries with that?", if you work hard enough and have the right attitude then there is usually scope to progress through a company.
Just an observation

 

[H_Chick]

That's why I said, hopefully she was checked out for this during her mental evaluation. Back in my day it was called the "baby blues".

Uuummmm, Patty G please dont bite my head off, but my understanding is the baby blues is what a lot of mums feel circe day 4-5 after birth, but true PND sometimes doesnt start for 6 months or so, and to librarian mama, PND can roll on for a long time, at least two years actually, and if the sufferer is really unfortunate they can spiral into fully blown PNPsychosis.
Never experienced it, read about it at varsity, very frightening concept.

:yow:

 

[PaddieAB]

I think CA is in denial but IMO her 911 call to the effect that "it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car" indicated that she really did know, at least on some level, that Caylee was dead. What other dead body would she think it could possibly have been? She probably said that because she was shocked, scared about Caylee, and didn't realize that the case would garner national attention.

Yes I agree CAs dead body smell comment tells us at some level she believed KC was capable of killing Caylee - possibly CAs worst nightmare. Thank you for reminding me I do not always write what I mean to say, and I'm sincere in that!

I believe CA had that fear for awhile, for months and maybe longer. IMO that’s why they tolerated KCs irresponsible behavior longer than she deserving of. Child custody laws are not based on grandparents fears.

I babbling onward, and OT, but I’m still stuck on the theory that Anthonys have been more cooperative with the police than the media has led us to believe. The face they put to the media was partly due to denial, but also I believe in the vain hope that if they showed “public support” toward KC she would tell the truth. That truth - what actually happened - is what the Anthonys need to know. They may have to sooner or later face the fact they may never get the truth, even if KC is convicted. Even worse if KC and her defense team play the parents-are-to-blame game.

I had read the transcripts of all three 911 calls months ago. By now anyone remotely interested in this case has heard or saw that one short segment of the 3rd 911 call around the dead body smell repeated over and over, to a point it’s become THE call. So yesterday I thought I would read the call transcripts over again. I happened upon the full audio files and listened to those for the first time.

My gosh, the full audio are revealing because of the verbalized emotions, missed altogether in the printed transcripts. KCs defense team won’t want those tapes played to a jury more than once.

I noticed CA was quite calm and almost businesslike at the beginning of the 1st call (must have been a little weird for the operators considering what she was calling about) and her tone moved to spilling forth with what sounded to be sheer desperation and panic by the 3rd call.

Then the operators asked to speak to KC ....didn’t appear to want second hand info from grandma. KCs voice was purely sullen and she spit out no more information than what was asked.....the total contrast to her mother’s emotional state is very revealing. KC makes a lot of emphasis on MY...no it is MY car, Caylee was with MY nanny, MY, MY, MY....

I’m including the link if anyone wants to listen or relisten. But it’s not pleasant so PLEASE save this sleuthing until after Christmas.....

See: A List of Online Audio File
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71772

 

[Duckley]

A few comments regarding this discussion:

-- I believe that Casey harmed her daughter and must be held accountable for her actions.
-- I believe Casey grew up with a mother who was loving onc moment and angry and controlling the next. Mother/daughter became immeshed in a co-dependant, love/hate relationship.
-- When Caylee came along, both mother and daughter used her as a "pawn" in their relationship with each other.
-- Casey developed a Narcissistic personality similar to her mother's.
-- To Casey, Caylee was an object she could use to manipulate her mother and to show off to friends how great of a mother she was. Unfortunately, Caylee also interfered with her ability to have men in her life.
-- Because she did not have a job or visible means of support, Casey was dependent on her parents.
-- Like her mother, Casey knew how to keep up appearances that all was well-- and like her mother, keeping up appearances was all-important.
-- Something happened -- a major argument between the two -- to send Casey into a rage against her mother.
-- During the argument, Cindy may have threatened to take Caylee away.
-- Something snapped inside Casey, causing GREAT ANGER against her mother, and either Caylee was killed accidently due to this anger, or with pre-meditation.

I believe the key to what happened to Caylee is hidden within the dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship. This does not absolve Casey of any guilt, but gives us an understanding of her behavior and actions-- and the resulting confusion and "cover-up" regarding what happened to Caylee.

Based on my own observations/ experience with a similar mother/daughter dynamic, they are both in cover-up mode, not wanting the world to know the truth about themselves and each other. Both Lee and Casey have probably been taught since they were young to not talk about what happens in the house.

You have captured perfectly the thoughts I have been having about Cindy and Casey's relationship.

 

[H_Chick]

lol. Yes, she was very much going towards people. Considering the amount of anger Cindy has displayed, and the threatening behavior we've seen, as well as the stories of her displays of extreme anger and aggression told by Cindy and George about Cindy from before all this happened, it's easy for me to believe that Cindy is capable of being physical when she's angry, and in the privacy of her own home, where there's nobody but her family who covers for her to see her. In other words, I believe she would have choked Casey.

That has been my arguement all along - KC may be act plain loco and live in Lala land, but someone has escorted her there and trained her up, and you dont know if CA has abused KC from young childhood to adulthood or not, but it would seem that if she isnt scared to physically attack a 23 year old, she would find no difficulty in beating a child.
GA and LA seem a bit, well, :cat:whipped, if you follow my thread of thought, so maybe its that CA has pretty much imposed martial law, and KC could very well have been on the receiving end of it for a long long time. LA may very well have known it was smarter to keep his head below the radar, whereas KC may not have and may well have worn it.

PS/ In NO WAY AM I EXCUSING THE DEATH OF A YOUNG CHILD.
I just think that KC hasnt had a very nice life at CAs hands, and maybe in a black hour of desparation KC looked at a small innocent child that she didnt particularly want to be encumbered with, but didnt want her mother raising the same way she was raised either. Sad.
Anyway, all supposition.
The court process will be a real roller coaster I believe.

 

[H_Chick]

Back on topic, in this case, I do NOT think CA/GA were best for custody- I believe in my heart Caylee would have had a better life adopted out. JMO. CA exhibits some issues like KC does.

Snipped by HChick to extract the crux of what Hermione has said.

Well said Hermione!
No way should the custody of Caylee have gone to CA - 20 years down the track history could well repeat itself. :bang:

 

[H_Chick]

Tony says in his statement in the last document release that Casey did NOT sleep at his house the 9-13th of June. Her first overnighter there without Caylee is the 14th, according to Tony. The night before the fight. She is then there from the 16th on excluding the days he goes out of town.

I think the fight is the precursor to Caylee's death, but growing up in a household with a mother a lot like Cindy I think what everyone may be missing is that this fight was probably not unlike many before it. We had regular knock down drag out fights in my mother's house, and they really didn't have to be over something major. And they frequently turned physical.

It goes like this, something small happens (or is perceived to have happened) that borderline mom feels wrongs her. The fight starts about that and then quickly morphs to old well tread areas of bigger past grievance (real or imagined). I think this kind of thing went on all the time. Think of the anger you see in George, Lee, Cindy, and Casey's attitude towards her mother in that first call.

Cindy is hateable, I agree with that, I get that, but I truly think what changed for Casey was the belief that she could go run around with Tony and his friends, don't want to be mother, hate your own mother, dream of getting out, fight happens, emotions high....

(Yes yes yes! to all that you have written ImpRed, and now if I can extrapolate your last paragraph here) ... Doesnt want the responsibility of Caylee, (wants to be free to find Mr Right WITHOUT trying to smooth Caylees way in or try to get some man to accept her) but doesnt want her mother getting custody of her and raising her the same way she was raised, or to have to constantly be reminded every time she sees Caylee, of how KC screwed up and blew it with Caylee by leaving her to CAs upbringing......

 

[H_Chick]

I think you see Cindy for exactly what she is. The woman has major issues and has screwed her children up beyond repair. well, Casey anyway.. Hopefully Lee doesn't have any horrible secrets.

It's funny too because in one of her LE interviews she goes into this big thing about how she wanted to "choke her" but would never, she just felt that way but she would "never hit her children" She says "I'm just not like that".

WELL DAMAGED CHILDREN, grown up into broken dysfunctional adults trying to masquerade to the world as together and 'normal' (whatever that is!) and the world is full of dysfunctional people - most just dont kill their children.
Yes you are very right there - Cindy is very much shown up for who she is :snake: and thats why I dont really understand anyone who says that she has such good intent, or how different it would have been had she raised Caylee and run KC off - I dont think any of them was in a good mental space to raise a child

 

[H_Chick]

Sorry but your perception of Cindy is really scary to me. glad I don't come from that place!

Gotta agree with you 1TB - I think Cindy is a twisted piece of work under the surface.
Also the talk of Cindy being so devoted to her mum and dad - well Ive seen a family member 1st hand paint a picture of what a devoted daughter she was to her aged, demanding, widowed mother, to absolutely anybody who chose to listen, and did what seemed like such selfless things to make her mothers life more comfortable, at great personal cost to herself. She was a saint and a martyr to all who knew her.
Well for those of us in the know on the inside, the selfless devoted daughter
b1tched long and loud to those of us inside the family loop about the things that she did for her mother (who was actually my grandmother and was not a demanding woman) and how much it cost her out of her own pocket to do the things she did for her (even though I know for a fact that my grandmother was always slipping her cash and had done for years).
The devoted doting daughter was my own mother - and I heard every nasty, resentful, passive aggressive comment she made behind closed doors and my grandmothers back.
As a child and young adult, I actually believed that was what family interaction was like for everyone - IE/ "I love this person who is a family member and tell them and everyone public how selflessly I will do anything for them, but I hate/resent them for this reason and I will tell those I am closest to about it as I slide the knife in". It took a LOT of concerted effort to remove the BACKSTABBING behaviour and not perpetuate it and one thing it did teach me was about how to say no and set boundaries, and thats what the A's seem to lack at some level.

Maybe Cindy is so loving a daughter to her own parents, but going out on a bit of a tangent limb here, just maybe thats where KC learnt the basis of the love/hate relationship. Could also be very wrong, but I have to agree with 1st time blogger that I absolutely dont come from the place that views cindy as a "normal everyday mum and wife" (whatever that is - because anyone, with a little effort, can look "normal" to those looking in from outside)
Just my own thoughts and ramblings on it.

 

[PaddieAB]

Santa will be here soon and I can't sleep :woohoo:

H_Chick I was thinking about your post and I really commend you for moving forward to a point where you can look back and clearly see what surrounded you. That takes a lot of personal strength to do I’m sure.

With full respect to your comments, in reply I just can't see CA at the centre of that family though. IMO it was KC, maybe for her entire life but certainly since her teen years. CA hasn’t quite given up on KC at this point in time, but she needs to for the sake of her own health and sanity. My perspective is simply as mother who has raised children to adulthood, like all parents I’ve made mistakes, I’m not always right, life goes on, all is well, and I’m thankful I have no murderers in my family (that I know of) but I have to say being a parent is hard especially when children hit their teens.

I see a clear and unhealthy pattern in KCs behavior - she's not trustworthy, and she does not accept responsibility for her actions - and I can't think of anything her parents might of done differently that would have mattered.

GA (FBI tapes) claims they had no problems with KC and she did well at school until her senior year when she began skipping classes. She didn’t tell her parents she wouldn’t graduate from high school because she was one credit short. Instead, GA says they found out from the school only four days before Grad. So then what - she gets a job at Universal Studios/Kodac taking photos. No plans to pick up more credits, no plans for the future. She gets pregnant, but doesn’t fess up to her parents. They confront her at 7 months and she admits it - does she really have a choice? She tries to pin fatherhood on JB. Again no plans for the future, KS is still living at home and JB now is hanging around the house as well. GA kicks him out of KCs bed. The DNA test says nope, well they weren’t even together when this child was conceived so go figure. KC calls off the engagement. Whoever Caylee’s father was is dead by the time Caylee is one year old, so says KC, and of course no child support and so KC remains living at home while financially supported by her parents. She only pretends to go back to work, steals money from parents and grandparents, on and on.....

In reality, by June/08 this young woman has a roof over her head, clothes in her closet, her child has everything a child could possibly want, she comes and goes as she pleases, has use of a car, her parents babysit, there’s food on the table, and all for FREE! Honestly, KC must have thought this was sheer utopia. But did her parents? Not. I can bet each and every lie, theft and irresponsible act by KC stabbed them a little further in the heart. Certainly they came to terms with the fact that KC was clearly taking advantage of them - by leveraging their love and concern for the well-being of Caylee. Moreover it seems KC was jealous of that love - she was displaced.

The showdown on June 15th (assuming) IMO was brewing for months if not years. I think CAs heart literally broke seeing Caylee clinging to her elderly and frail father - I know mine did while watching that video. The final straw. Robbing the innocent....how vile and evil.

The Anthonys efforts proved futile. KC still does not accept responsibility for her actions by admitting what she did. Perhaps being surrounded by a high profile defense team preparing to plea her innocence may be a lifestyle at this point that suits her quite fine. She’s the centre of attention once again.

Meanwhile the Anthonys have lost both their granddaughter and daughter. Hard to come to terms with. May they find eventual peace as well.

My ramblings..

 

[DotsEyes]

I am going to guess that KC wasn't welcome at the nursing home visit with Grandpa or for lunch with Grandma on Father's Day. But, Caylee go to go. Caylee got to eat Grandma's chili and was videptaped singing and reading to Grandpa. How adorable, but maybe not to KC. To KC, Caylee had usurped KC favorite child status and KC was rejected by the Grandparents. This of course would be Caylee's fault. And CA's because she didn't take up "enough" for KC and should have sided with her over her own parents in the theft problem. Sociopaths anger easily over "slights". I am going to say she was already angry before CA and Caylee ever got home. I am also 100% convinced that KC took out her anger on Caylee as CA did with her.

KC uploaded that video on the 16th of June, but I bet she watched it on the 15th, early 16th. Something in the unedited video triggered her. (edited by the media, not her, or maybe her, don't know) Maybe she told Caylee that Grandma and Grandpa were mean to her and she couldn't love them anymore and that is why we see the child's confused look in the video. She looks like she knows she is going to be in trouble for something. Was it the song? Reading her book? Kissing Grandpa? Maybe she told Grandma about sleeping at Ric's last week, or maybe in the car and CA videotaped it. (custody)

CA just isn't that concerned about KC stealing $50 from Grandma, and this is why I don't think the argument was about the forged check. I think it was about "proof" of "unfitness".

 

[Crafti]

Although I cannot believe CA's behavior and ridiculous statements since her 3rd 911 call, after reading the e-mails between CA, her brother and mother, I think Cindy was the only "responsible" person between her, GA and KC. Not trying to defend her in any way, just trying to put myself in that position. It seems that she was the primary bread winner for the family, paying for everything, working two jobs - GA not working, KC not contributing. GA seems pretty useless and passive. If CA was at work so much and trying to keep control of all of their lives and responsibilities, KC probably didn't have a lot of parenting from CA herself - instead from a passive father that gave in to whatever KC wanted or did. He may have even tried to cover for KC some to avoid being accountable for not disciplining her. Again, I think CA has been in very serious denial, but I also think the "angry" way she comes across may come from a long time of building frustration and responsibility without help. This woman had probably already reached her wits end with her family before little Caylee disappeared/was murdered. If GA had played a stronger role in this family perhaps things would have been different. He actually seemed to want to be quite honest until CA whipped him into compliance with what she thought should be said. His heart was probably in the right place but just didn't have a strong enough personality or confidence to stand up to his wife and daughter. But, then again, CA allowed the dynamics in the family to continue for a very long time it appears. Regardless, they are not responsible for KC's actions.

To address the topic of this thread directly. . . .does anyone know what the fight was really about? From what I have heard and read, it seems to me that CA had finally had enough of Casey's lies and thefts. I believe Caylee was killed by KC out of indifference to the child and as a way to get back at CA. I think KC was irritated with Caylee on the 16th and taped her mouth and threw her in the trunk because she was annoyed and fed up with the distraction and responsibility of a child. She may not have directly & intentionally killed her, but I believe she knew that her actions may cause the death of her child, and didn't care one little bit if her actions resulted in her death. I think it was directly spiteful to CA.

 

[Firefly]

I am going to guess that KC wasn't welcome at the nursing home visit with Grandpa or for lunch with Grandma on Father's Day. But, Caylee go to go. Caylee got to eat Grandma's chili and was videptaped singing and reading to Grandpa. How adorable, but maybe not to KC. To KC, Caylee had usurped KC favorite child status and KC was rejected by the Grandparents. This of course would be Caylee's fault. And CA's because she didn't take up "enough" for KC and should have sided with her over her own parents in the theft problem. Sociopaths anger easily over "slights". I am going to say she was already angry before CA and Caylee ever got home. I am also 100% convinced that KC took out her anger on Caylee as CA did with her.

KC uploaded that video on the 16th of June, but I bet she watched it on the 15th, early 16th. Something in the unedited video triggered her. (edited by the media, not her, or maybe her, don't know) Maybe she told Caylee that Grandma and Grandpa were mean to her and she couldn't love them anymore and that is why we see the child's confused look in the video. She looks like she knows she is going to be in trouble for something. Was it the song? Reading her book? Kissing Grandpa? Maybe she told Grandma about sleeping at Ric's last week, or maybe in the car and CA videotaped it. (custody)

CA just isn't that concerned about KC stealing $50 from Grandma, and this is why I don't think the argument was about the forged check. I think it was about "proof" of "unfitness".

I agree to your statement at the end which is bolded by me. I think Cindy came unglued on Casey because the baby said something she wasn't supposed to say. I was aghast to hear of the the duct tape placed over her mouth ante-mortem or post-mortem and wondered why she was being "silenced" if there were signs of drugging. Too bad they didn't go after Casey the minute she flew out of the house with that baby. I can't imagine what her last few hours/days were like with Casey after getting throttled by her own mother. Caylee is and will always be pure truth.

 

[PhoneBoothBandit]

Although I cannot believe CA's behavior and ridiculous statements since her 3rd 911 call, after reading the e-mails between CA, her brother and mother, I think Cindy was the only "responsible" person between her, GA and KC. Not trying to defend her in any way, just trying to put myself in that position. It seems that she was the primary bread winner for the family, paying for everything, working two jobs - GA not working, KC not contributing. GA seems pretty useless and passive. If CA was at work so much and trying to keep control of all of their lives and responsibilities, KC probably didn't have a lot of parenting from CA herself - instead from a passive father that gave in to whatever KC wanted or did. He may have even tried to cover for KC some to avoid being accountable for not disciplining her. Again, I think CA has been in very serious denial, but I also think the "angry" way she comes across may come from a long time of building frustration and responsibility without help. This woman had probably already reached her wits end with her family before little Caylee disappeared/was murdered. If GA had played a stronger role in this family perhaps things would have been different. He actually seemed to want to be quite honest until CA whipped him into compliance with what she thought should be said. His heart was probably in the right place but just didn't have a strong enough personality or confidence to stand up to his wife and daughter. But, then again, CA allowed the dynamics in the family to continue for a very long time it appears. Regardless, they are not responsible for KC's actions.

To address the topic of this thread directly. . . .does anyone know what the fight was really about? From what I have heard and read, it seems to me that CA had finally had enough of Casey's lies and thefts. I believe Caylee was killed by KC out of indifference to the child and as a way to get back at CA. I think KC was irritated with Caylee on the 16th and taped her mouth and threw her in the trunk because she was annoyed and fed up with the distraction and responsibility of a child. She may not have directly & intentionally killed her, but I believe she knew that her actions may cause the death of her child, and didn't care one little bit if her actions resulted in her death. I think it was directly spiteful to CA.

Fantastic post. I did see Cindy in a different perspective after those emails too.

 

[truecrime]

I believe when Caylee was on grandpas lap she didn't have a scared look on her face the 15th, but was a look of listening to his heart beating while someone is trying to talk to her and she wants to hear the beats. Just my opinion.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Nor can anyone say it would have been a good thing for CA to be raising Caylee herself.
I dont see that KC is such a fine upstanding citizen that society would want another potential timebomb on its hands in twenty years time.
I realise that as adults, we all paddle our own canoe, and even if your ubringing has been less than adequate or fortunate, it is still in your own hands how you play out your adult life, but I think that a lot of CAs parenting of KC shows through in what everyone sees before them.

:twocents:

ITA! I hate to imagine the psychological damage the two of them would have caused Caylee over the years had she lived.