Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[IRule254]

Did KCs story that her mother chocked her come before or after the story that her mother was signing the house over to her?

One lie, another lie, who can keep track.

Yeah, I always thought that she made up that story because she was planning on taking out Cindy (Maybe George too???) and ending up with the house anyway Perhaps all her lies about the relationship between her parents weren't lies at all...maybe she wanted to start rumors. I know it is VERY far fetched but maybe on of her original plans was to kill her mom, frame her dad by making bogus internet searches and spreading rumors about how bad their relationship was getting and then have all the house and $$$ to herself.

Me thinks I need more sleep before paranoia takes over my brain...:crazy:

 

[Boston]

Did KCs story that her mother chocked her come before or after the story that her mother was signing the house over to her?

One lie, another lie, who can keep track.

Early on in the case Mark F. was interviewing people & doing his own little investigation .

He actually did a pretty good Job because he came up with KC's cell phone records before they were released- I guess he has a connection.

Anyway, he reported that neighbors heard a "Very Loud argument" in the Anthony home on the night of June 15th.

Later on.....

LP reported that Lee told him that Cindy had choked KC during the argument that started because Cindy had confronted KC about stealing money from her Grandparents bank account.

Yesterday, Jessie G. also mentioned this argument & choking incident.

In my opinion this argument is what caused KC to leave the house that night & take Caylee with her

I think Cindy either threatened her or gave her an ultimatum even though Cindy wants us to believe that they "had a very nice night & everything was normal"....as she recently told Dateline.


Anyway,
The "longwinded" point I'm trying to make is that I really think that there was an argument & choking incident & it's important to the case

 

[yosande]

not back peddling...but maybe I have missed some of the darker episodes...

Im not talking about all the lying she has done since...I am talking about her relationship with Casey...I think the abuse allegations against Cindy are greatly exxagerated.

Am I the only one who perceives Casey as a master manipulator and her parents as captives?

surely I am not.

No, you aren't the only one.
I can't imagine being in her shoes.
Until Casey confesses, she will continue to have a very difficult time believing her daughter could do such a horrible thing.
However, they aren't Catholic and they didn't raise their children in a religious home.
None of their neighbors have ever said that CA or GA yelled at Casey. Casey is always doing the yelling and the foul language.
I do not believe that CA choked Casey that day or any other day. In the midst of this horror she has never been physical with anyone except in protective mode.
This is my opinion, and I have the right to it without being attacked. thanks

 

[yosande]

Yeah, I always thought that she made up that story because she was planning on taking out Cindy (Maybe George too???) and ending up with the house anyway Perhaps all her lies about the relationship between her parents weren't lies at all...maybe she wanted to start rumors. I know it is VERY far fetched but maybe on of her original plans was to kill her mom, frame her dad by making bogus internet searches and spreading rumors about how bad their relationship was getting and then have all the house and $$$ to herself.

Me thinks I need more sleep before paranoia takes over my brain...:crazy:

Yes, IIRC, Casey was researching neck breaking right after a $200. check was refused to be cashed by Amscot? I'm not really sure where. When I read that I thought she was entertaining killing someone, though not her daughter, but possibly her mother, or the teller who refused her. jmo
I believe she entertained murdering several people before she actually acted out one of her fantasys, sp?

 

[yosande]

Who did this to who???

I believe this is referring to GA pushing his father through a window many many years ago. I have not seen any prove as to this being accurate such as arrest report though.
I consider it pure rumor.

 

[chicoliving]

There was a police report/record posted a while back about the incident with the FIL and window. I have no idea where. Lotta help aren't I?

 

[yosande]

Do we know when Casey stole that money? For some reason, I'm under the impression it was long before June 15th and therefore was not 'new' news or something to fight about at that time.

I believe it was the third week in May iirc, however,
Two things were new imo.
one is the new bf TonE who stated that his apartment was no place for a little child just days earlier. Remember that CA had the previous week off so Caylee was with her all that time. But starting the 16th, CA was heading back to work, GA had a job, so he wasn't going to be available, thus no babysitter.
The other thing is the therapist who advised CA to kick Casey to the curb, which CA said she could not in good conscience do, however, I believe she was struggling with how to get her daughter to grow up.
I believe that if there was a fight on that day, and I believe that there was, it was instigated by Casey. It didn't even have to be about something important. AH said that Casey got upset a lot about petty unimportant things. One thing is obvious to me though, the new boyfriend didn't want Caylee there, unlike Recardo who apparently didn't mind. With GA's new job, Casey found herself either being a parent and growing up, or find someone to take Caylee off her hands. I believe she had exhausted all friends, neighbors, and JG's family, and it was time to grow up, or get rid of. She chose the latter.
She chose a guy she knew for a couple weeks over her child, and imo it's just that simple.
then the lying game player that she is took her mom for ride like you wouldn't believe and after a couple weeks, CA was worried sick about Caylee, but it was already too late. Caylee was no longer alive.
The cell phone pings imply that Casey was home the night of the 15th.
I believe the flood of phone calls on the afternoon of the 16th was not because something horrible had happened but because TonE was out of school, and she wanted to go hang with him. When she couldn't find a sitter, she chose murder, then without skipping a beat, went to rent movies with her new boyfriend.

 

[PaulaF513]

you know, Cindy seems totally normal to me, like a nice irish catholic mom, married to a nice italian catholic guy...maybe they are something else but that's my feeling, nurse and cop.

I don't know, she doesn't seem mean or abusive. I feel like Casey plays victim and loves to play people off eachother. It seems as though Cindy could say or do something completely innocently, like call herself mommy to caylee and it would send casey off on a tangent ...pointing all the ways Cindy screws with her head and tries to hurt her.

I'm sorry but they seem like your typical family, very close very protective and very clannish. I think Cindy was waiting for Casey to return Caylee, to give up and admit she couldn't care for her and to bring her back, maybe finally learning her lesson and making restitution for the money she has stolen.

Between George's gambling addiction and all the money problems she has probably become a little nutty and controlling just trying to cope and remain a loving loyal and strong mother , wife and grandmother.

I don't fault her. I just can't. Sometimes you can's see the forest for the trees.

I totally agree with you. You've worded this exactly as I wish I could have done. Good post!

 

[PaulaF513]

I'd like to comment on what I saw when I watched the interviews. I saw a mother who was suffering. That hard edge that might be perceived as a coldness is her shield to protect herself from own personal sorrow.

The thing is, when people are dealing with traumatic circumstances they are rarely rational or consistent At first, denial, anger, blame all go hand in hand. We’ve all known people at times like this. Divorce is trivial compared to murder, missing children or death but a comparison at some level I think is fair. One day the “rejected” spouse says one thing, we think they are coping well, and wham the next day they are right back at the beginning. They are bitter and angry and some of the things they say are downright cruel and mean. But knowing these people, and knowing what they are going through, well we understand. However we don’t know CA. Infact we only know her by her face on our TV screens. We tend to judge her on the basis of what we see, but is that really who she is? Or is she not coping well? In her shoes, I wonder that any of us would be doing any better.

People need time to cope with trauma, to sort things out in their own minds, to accept what they are dealing with, before they can move on. The time may be in terms of years, not months.

This case is also unique because at the onset there was no indication murder was involved, simply a child gone missing. I am sure that’s what CA believed when she called 911, in fact she may have been relieved when KC came up with the nanny story because that’s what she wanted to believe - to protect herself from the sheer horror that her daughter was a monster. The media lapped it up, each and every gruesome detail. Meanwhile the events evolved past a simple case of a missing child, but CA stayed stuck in her denial. Not a pretty place to be in when ones words are broadcast worldwide, regardless of her intentions.

What a great post...you are very insightful. I agree with everything you've said.

 

[chicoliving]

"The damn car smells like there was a dead body in it" kinda gives the idea right off the bat that someone died . Day 31.

 

[Pedrosmom]

You can bet the KC Cindy fight will play a role in the defense. That is, if the dream team wisens up to the Nanny theory and goes for an insanity defense.

That must have been one big *advertiser censored** brawl.

I suspect this trial will be all about KC v. her mother, her father, her brother.

 

[BeanE]

uh huh- that's the interview I remembered too!

More recently Cindy brought up on a TV interview (I am not sure which station or what woman was doing the interview but they acted like old pals and seemed to be in a park under a gazebo maybe? you could tell she was controling the interview though. I suspect she called the station and asked for the interview) that she and Casey had no fight that night, that's it's gossip, that and that George and Casey get along fine.

Omg this is sooooo bad, but I know exactly what interview you mean. Scary. (Yes, I watch Cindy interviews over and over all the time lol ).

 

[norr]

Thanks for responding to my post. I have always felt that Casey was doing the computer searches mainly for ways to handle her mother/parents. You wouldn't need household tools or neck breaking for a toddler. Ick!

I believe this is referring to GA pushing his father through a window many many years ago. I have not seen any prove as to this being accurate such as arrest report though.
I consider it pure rumor.

 

[zoey]

No, you aren't the only one.
I can't imagine being in her shoes.
Until Casey confesses, she will continue to have a very difficult time believing her daughter could do such a horrible thing.
However, they aren't Catholic and they didn't raise their children in a religious home.
None of their neighbors have ever said that CA or GA yelled at Casey. Casey is always doing the yelling and the foul language.
I do not believe that CA choked Casey that day or any other day. In the midst of this horror she has never been physical with anyone except in protective mode.
This is my opinion, and I have the right to it without being attacked. thanks

bold by me

iirc the neighbors did say they heard yelling/fights other than on the 15th

I also believe ca is also part of the yelling back and forth..I think they both knew how to push each others buttons....I don't think either is totally innocent in this--ca knew very well how to use the foul language....Lee also mentioned they did have a more or less love/hate relationship....after seeing some of the videos and hearing some of the transcripts.....I think ca was very likely able to "choke" kc---I also think that Caylee saw this and that was what really put her in danger that night--just from crying and being separated from her grandmother--kc said Caylee never cried for her---only ca.....the jealousy again.....


also about the being catholic---if she is seeing a Baptist minister--she can confess to God...

 

[madeleine]

You can bet the KC Cindy fight will play a role in the defense. That is, if the dream team wisens up to the Nanny theory and goes for an insanity defense.

That must have been one big *advertiser censored** brawl.

I suspect this trial will be all about KC v. her mother, her father, her brother.

I agree.Shrinks,get your notebooks ready.

 

[bananarama]

Who did this to who???

The short version:
Cindy's brother told both of these stories, which appear to be true.
Apparently, George's dad owned a car lot and George worked there. One day they had a huge fight and George threw dad thru the plate glass window. George quit and opened his own car lot down the road. I believe when it failed, the family moved to FL.
Cindy's brother was getting married and Casey showed up at the wedding looking pregnant. Cindy and George denied it...said you'd have to have sex to get pregnant. Casey was 7 months along!

 

[norr]

The short version:
Cindy's brother told both of these stories, which appear to be true.
Apparently, George's dad owned a car lot and George worked there. One day they had a huge fight and George threw dad thru the plate glass window. George quit and opened his own car lot down the road. I believe when it failed, the family moved to FL.
Cindy's brother was getting married and Casey showed up at the wedding looking pregnant. Cindy and George denied it...said you'd have to have sex to get pregnant. Casey was 7 months along!

This Anthony family!!!! (SIGH) Who would have known... guess 'they' all do. They are appalling!!

I suspect, since Caylee does sometimes resemble Cindy, that was probably an issue to.

I look at the happy loving pictures with Caylee and it just seems impossible, but she is dead.

Not even reported missing by her own mother for 31 days.

All of the Anthony's are lying .... so they can not be depended on for any 'real' facts. Makes it harder to figure out.

 

[Penelope]

A few comments regarding this discussion:

-- I believe that Casey harmed her daughter and must be held accountable for her actions.
-- I believe Casey grew up with a mother who was loving onc moment and angry and controlling the next. Mother/daughter became immeshed in a co-dependant, love/hate relationship.
-- When Caylee came along, both mother and daughter used her as a "pawn" in their relationship with each other.
-- Casey developed a Narcissistic personality similar to her mother's.
-- To Casey, Caylee was an object she could use to manipulate her mother and to show off to friends how great of a mother she was. Unfortunately, Caylee also interfered with her ability to have men in her life.
-- Because she did not have a job or visible means of support, Casey was dependent on her parents.
-- Like her mother, Casey knew how to keep up appearances that all was well-- and like her mother, keeping up appearances was all-important.
-- Something happened -- a major argument between the two -- to send Casey into a rage against her mother.
-- During the argument, Cindy may have threatened to take Caylee away.
-- Something snapped inside Casey, causing GREAT ANGER against her mother, and either Caylee was killed accidently due to this anger, or with pre-meditation.

I believe the key to what happened to Caylee is hidden within the dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship. This does not absolve Casey of any guilt, but gives us an understanding of her behavior and actions-- and the resulting confusion and "cover-up" regarding what happened to Caylee.

Based on my own observations/ experience with a similar mother/daughter dynamic, they are both in cover-up mode, not wanting the world to know the truth about themselves and each other. Both Lee and Casey have probably been taught since they were young to not talk about what happens in the house.

 

[amethyst221]

A few comments regarding this discussion:

-- I believe that Casey harmed her daughter and must be held accountable for her actions.
-- I believe Casey grew up with a mother who was loving onc moment and angry and controlling the next. Mother/daughter became immeshed in a co-dependant, love/hate relationship.
-- When Caylee came along, both mother and daughter used her as a "pawn" in their relationship with each other.
-- Casey developed a Narcissistic personality similar to her mother's.
-- To Casey, Caylee was an object she could use to manipulate her mother and to show off to friends how great of a mother she was. Unfortunately, Caylee also interfered with her ability to have men in her life.
-- Because she did not have a job or visible means of support, Casey was dependent on her parents.
-- Like her mother, Casey knew how to keep up appearances that all was well-- and like her mother, keeping up appearances was all-important.
-- Something happened -- a major argument between the two -- to send Casey into a rage against her mother.
-- During the argument, Cindy may have threatened to take Caylee away.
-- Something snapped inside Casey, causing GREAT ANGER against her mother, and either Caylee was killed accidently due to this anger, or with pre-meditation.

I believe the key to what happened to Caylee is hidden within the dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship. This does not absolve Casey of any guilt, but gives us an understanding of her behavior and actions-- and the resulting confusion and "cover-up" regarding what happened to Caylee.

Based on my own observations/ experience with a similar mother/daughter dynamic, they are both in cover-up mode, not wanting the world to know the truth about themselves and each other. Both Lee and Casey have probably been taught since they were young to not talk about what happens in the house.

This makes such perfectly good sense, based on what we've seen. It seems as if it was a perpetual battle for control and keeping up appearances. But it almost seems as if Casey was in the ascendancy (despite her dependance on her parents) in recent times, and they alternately enabled and rebelled, in relatively small ways. Something bigger happened that led to this tragedy. In the immediate aftermath, it's as if they went right back to the previous roles. I can't watch the jail tapes of them together -- it's too painful to watch Casey work her parents, and then to see them go forth and defend her.

 

[trac]

It was interesting this AM on the Today show - a criminal profiler was on - she said that Casey is a classic psychopath - not to be looked at like a psychotic - a psychotic would say that the devil was after her child (aka Andrea Yates) and she would have to kill her daughter to save her - she didn't know right from wrong -

BUT a psychopath has zero empathy towards others and knows right from wrong- Caylee served as a prop when born 'Look was a wonderful mother I am' so she molded herself when with Jessie as this wonderful mother - it fit her needs at the time - when her needs changed, Casey morphed into something else - AT that time Caylee became a liability - Casey didn't need her anymore - Caylee was demanding as any child at that age - so Casey got rid of the liability - she didn't look at Caylee like her child someone to love, she was a demanding liability and she had to remove it so she could morph into her next phase.

This fits Casey very well - I thought about what the profiler said - it leans towards pre-meditation - get rid of the obstacle and move on - so thats why we see someone who doesn't have emotion towards the child, who thinks of herself - Casey is a psychopath