Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[eddeva]

ITA! I hate to imagine the psychological damage the two of them would have caused Caylee over the years had she lived.

Amen.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Santa will be here soon and I can't sleep :woohoo:

H_Chick I was thinking about your post and I really commend you for moving forward to a point where you can look back and clearly see what surrounded you. That takes a lot of personal strength to do I’m sure.

With full respect to your comments, in reply I just can't see CA at the centre of that family though. IMO it was KC, maybe for her entire life but certainly since her teen years. CA hasn’t quite given up on KC at this point in time, but she needs to for the sake of her own health and sanity. My perspective is simply as mother who has raised children to adulthood, like all parents I’ve made mistakes, I’m not always right, life goes on, all is well, and I’m thankful I have no murderers in my family (that I know of) but I have to say being a parent is hard especially when children hit their teens.

I see a clear and unhealthy pattern in KCs behavior - she's not trustworthy, and she does not accept responsibility for her actions - and I can't think of anything her parents might of done differently that would have mattered.

GA (FBI tapes) claims they had no problems with KC and she did well at school until her senior year when she began skipping classes. She didn’t tell her parents she wouldn’t graduate from high school because she was one credit short. Instead, GA says they found out from the school only four days before Grad. So then what - she gets a job at Universal Studios/Kodac taking photos. No plans to pick up more credits, no plans for the future. She gets pregnant, but doesn’t fess up to her parents. They confront her at 7 months and she admits it - does she really have a choice? She tries to pin fatherhood on JB. Again no plans for the future, KS is still living at home and JB now is hanging around the house as well. GA kicks him out of KCs bed. The DNA test says nope, well they weren’t even together when this child was conceived so go figure. KC calls off the engagement. Whoever Caylee’s father was is dead by the time Caylee is one year old, so says KC, and of course no child support and so KC remains living at home while financially supported by her parents. She only pretends to go back to work, steals money from parents and grandparents, on and on.....

In reality, by June/08 this young woman has a roof over her head, clothes in her closet, her child has everything a child could possibly want, she comes and goes as she pleases, has use of a car, her parents babysit, there’s food on the table, and all for FREE! Honestly, KC must have thought this was sheer utopia. But did her parents? Not. I can bet each and every lie, theft and irresponsible act by KC stabbed them a little further in the heart. Certainly they came to terms with the fact that KC was clearly taking advantage of them - by leveraging their love and concern for the well-being of Caylee. Moreover it seems KC was jealous of that love - she was displaced.

The showdown on June 15th (assuming) IMO was brewing for months if not years. I think CAs heart literally broke seeing Caylee clinging to her elderly and frail father - I know mine did while watching that video. The final straw. Robbing the innocent....how vile and evil.

The Anthonys efforts proved futile. KC still does not accept responsibility for her actions by admitting what she did. Perhaps being surrounded by a high profile defense team preparing to plea her innocence may be a lifestyle at this point that suits her quite fine. She’s the centre of attention once again.

Meanwhile the Anthonys have lost both their granddaughter and daughter. Hard to come to terms with. May they find eventual peace as well.

My ramblings..

Bold is mine. You can't think of anything her parents might of done differently to make their daughter trustworthy, or teach her to face responsibility for her actions that would have mattered???

How about giving her consequenses when she steals from them or from Lee or from Grandma and grandpa? Or how about not teaching her to lie- by lying? Or teaching her responsibility and make her pay her own cell phone bill or some rent $? Or NOT cleaning up her messes for her, NOT proving her with everything she needs and then some?

Read your post again because everything you listed that these parents have done (paying her way in life, covering up her lies, letting her get away with stealing from family members- themselves included etc) and what they have NOT done has taught her how to be the lying, sneaky, manipulative, devious, cold hearted thief (I'm not going to say murder because THAT isn't Cindy or Georges fault) that she is.

I see plenty they could have done and plenty they could have stopped doing that would have mattered!

 

[PaddieAB]

I believe when Caylee was on grandpas lap she didn't have a scared look on her face the 15th, but was a look of listening to his heart beating while someone is trying to talk to her and she wants to hear the beats. Just my opinion.

Excellent observation! I think you could be right.

 

[zadari]

it seemed like he looked worried or sad though .. or mabey im just reading more into it

 

[Firefly]

Excellent observation! I think you could be right.

She is mirroring him, imho. I think if he was....hey, let me tickle ya....or hey, let me look into your eyes and smile and sing songs. She would have mirrored him right back with smiles and giggles. I think they both had the same unemotional, tired look.

 

[Penelope]

I believe that children Caylee's age -- and younger -- get a sense of anxiety when their mother is angry or upset, or if those around her are arguing and fighting a lot. My stepdaughter remembers fights between her parents when she was less than 2 years old. It must have been difficult for Caylee-- she probably sensed the energy around her was not right. Imagine a pure, little girl like her living amongst such dysfunction. Yes, I agree with the poster who said Caylee was probably upset after this last big fight between Casey and Cindy. It breaks my heart-- I keep having to remind myself that dear Caylee is safe now and in a better place, surrounded by love.

 

[KeysBreeze]

Bold is mine. You can't think of anything her parents might of done differently to make their daughter trustworthy, or teach her to face responsibility for her actions that would have mattered???

How about giving her consequenses when she steals from them or from Lee or from Grandma and grandpa? Or how about not teaching her to lie- by lying? Or teaching her responsibility and make her pay her own cell phone bill or some rent $? Or NOT cleaning up her messes for her, NOT proving her with everything she needs and then some?

Read your post again because everything you listed that these parents have done (paying her way in life, covering up her lies, letting her get away with stealing from family members- themselves included etc) and what they have NOT done has taught her how to be the lying, sneaky, manipulative, devious, cold hearted thief (I'm not going to say murder because THAT isn't Cindy or Georges fault) that she is.

I see plenty they could have done and plenty they could have stopped doing that would have mattered!

I noticed during the FBI interviews that both George & Cindy seem to blame the High School guidance counselor for Casey not having the credits to graduate. This is a perfect example of blaming everyone but Casey. They have never made her accountable for anything and look what happened.

 

[PaddieAB]

Bold is mine. You can't think of anything her parents might of done differently to make their daughter trustworthy, or teach her to face responsibility for her actions that would have mattered???

How about giving her consequenses when she steals from them or from Lee or from Grandma and grandpa? Or how about not teaching her to lie- by lying? Or teaching her responsibility and make her pay her own cell phone bill or some rent $? Or NOT cleaning up her messes for her, NOT proving her with everything she needs and then some?

Read your post again because everything you listed that these parents have done (paying her way in life, covering up her lies, letting her get away with stealing from family members- themselves included etc) and what they have NOT done has taught her how to be the lying, sneaky, manipulative, devious, cold hearted thief (I'm not going to say murder because THAT isn't Cindy or Georges fault) that she is.

I see plenty they could have done and plenty they could have stopped doing that would have mattered!

Isn’t it tempting to sit here and judge? You think you can pinpoint exactly where they went wrong .......... but you are looking BACKWARD through only a narrowly scoped tunnel into their lives, and only the negative parts at that. If you can predict murder your talents will be much in demand and I wish you much success.

Anyone can look backward. It’s like looking at a car’s tracks on a fresh blanket of snow. But look ahead and you see nothingness. The fact is the majority of families are no different than the Anthonys. And 99.9% of the children of these families will NOT grow up to be murders. But pick, pick, pick, I guarantee you, you could find "signs" in everyone. Human beings are not perfect. As children mature something clicks into place, some sooner, some later, there’s good times, there’s bad times, and parents breathe a huge silent sigh of relief when their children finally become independent. Look around, these typical families are everywhere.

In KCs taped interviews/calls with her parents, did you notice how ticked off she was because she couldn’t get out of jail. Did you notice she never showed any remorse or blamed herself for anything? Did you see that several times her parents urged her to talk to whoever she felt comfortable talking to, and asked that she tell the truth and not worry about them? They never asked her to lie or keep quiet, not once.

As far as reporting theft goes, you may or may not know that parents are often discouraged from reporting dependent children who steal small amounts of money from them merely “to teach them a lesson”. The reason is that gives them a criminal record that could have significant impact on their ability to get a job in the near future. Many employers check those things out in the hiring process and choose not to hire thieves.

KC was 22 years old and by every account I’ve read her stealing escalated with her newly discovered friends and single party life. The theft from the nursing home account was $50 I believe. The real issue is not the money, it was the BETRAYAL. Do you honestly think she would of become a changed person if that was reported? Anthony’s certainly would not have been granted permanent custody of Caylee over just that.

Your comments make we wonder why it seems you are angry at the Anthonys for what they did or didn’t do, but I’m not sure why. If either of them were actively involved in Caylee’s death, then they would deserve whatever mud was slung at them. To this point in time there is nothing to suggest that. CA did the right thing - she reported Caylee’s disappearance. As for KC....she was 22 years old and if her life was so bad, her mother so ruthless, her choice should have been to move out, get a job, find other single moms to hang out with, and find a safe environment where her child could be raised - give up custody of Caylee to whoever she chose - or walk into a hospital/mental health unit/phoned a crisis line and ask for help.

Don’t discourage the drive and perseverance of people who may be reading this forum at this very moment looking to take positive steps toward improving their lives, or tarnish the fortitude of those who have taken risks and have already accomplished that. By that I mean both parents and dependent adult children. This outcome was an absolute worst case scenario.

This case is a long way from going to trial and most of what we know at this point in time is based on unproven information, rumor and speculation. My question to you. Do you believe the parents are all or in part responsible for “something” that happened.... without even knowing what happened? If so, what are the consequences to KC. Do you see the irony in that?

 

[reeseeva]

Isn’t it tempting to sit here and judge? You think you can pinpoint exactly where they went wrong .......... but you are looking BACKWARD through only a narrowly scoped tunnel into their lives, and only the negative parts at that. If you can predict murder your talents will be much in demand and I wish you much success.

Anyone can look backward. It’s like looking at a car’s tracks on a fresh blanket of snow. But look ahead and you see nothingness. The fact is the majority of families are no different than the Anthonys. And 99.9% of the children of these families will NOT grow up to be murders. But pick, pick, pick, I guarantee you, you could find "signs" in everyone. Human beings are not perfect. As children mature something clicks into place, some sooner, some later, there’s good times, there’s bad times, and parents breathe a huge silent sigh of relief when their children finally become independent. Look around, these typical families are everywhere.

In KCs taped interviews/calls with her parents, did you notice how ticked off she was because she couldn’t get out of jail. Did you notice she never showed any remorse or blamed herself for anything? Did you see that several times her parents urged her to talk to whoever she felt comfortable talking to, and asked that she tell the truth and not worry about them? They never asked her to lie or keep quiet, not once. :boohoo:

As far as reporting theft goes, you may or may not know that parents are often discouraged from reporting dependent children who steal small amounts of money from them merely “to teach them a lesson”. The reason is that gives them a criminal record that could have significant impact on their ability to get a job in the near future. Many employers check those things out in the hiring process and choose not to hire thieves.

KC was 22 years old and by every account I’ve read her stealing escalated with her newly discovered friends and single party life. The theft from the nursing home account was $50 I believe. The real issue is not the money, it was the BETRAYAL. Do you honestly think she would of become a changed person if that was reported? Anthony’s certainly would not have been granted permanent custody of Caylee over just that.

Your comments make we wonder why it seems you are angry at the Anthonys for what they did or didn’t do, but I’m not sure why. If either of them were actively involved in Caylee’s death, then they would deserve whatever mud was slung at them. To this point in time there is nothing to suggest that. CA did the right thing - she reported Caylee’s disappearance. As for KC....she was 22 years old and if her life was so bad, her mother so ruthless, her choice should have been to move out, get a job, find other single moms to hang out with, and find a safe environment where her child could be raised - give up custody of Caylee to whoever she chose - or walk into a hospital/mental health unit/phoned a crisis line and ask for help.

Don’t discourage the drive and perseverance of people who may be reading this forum at this very moment looking to take positive steps toward improving their lives, or tarnish the fortitude of those who have taken risks and have already accomplished that. By that I mean both parents and dependent adult children. This outcome was an absolute worst case scenario.

This case is a long way from going to trial and most of what we know at this point in time is based on unproven information, rumor and speculation. My question to you. Do you believe the parents are all or in part responsible for “something” that happened.... without even knowing what happened? If so, what are the consequences to KC. Do you see the irony in that?

Bold is mine. You can't think of anything her parents might of done differently to make their daughter trustworthy, or teach her to face responsibility for her actions that would have mattered???

How about giving her consequenses when she steals from them or from Lee or from Grandma and grandpa? Or how about not teaching her to lie- by lying? Or teaching her responsibility and make her pay her own cell phone bill or some rent $? Or NOT cleaning up her messes for her, NOT proving her with everything she needs and then some?

Read your post again because everything you listed that these parents have done (paying her way in life, covering up her lies, letting her get away with stealing from family members- themselves included etc) and what they have NOT done has taught her how to be the lying, sneaky, manipulative, devious, cold hearted thief (I'm not going to say murder because THAT isn't Cindy or Georges fault) that she is.

I see plenty they could have done and plenty they could have stopped doing that would have mattered!

:clap::clap:

I am really with you Onelostgirl! I once read that "everything that is not suffered to the end will keep reocurring" Accountability for your actions has to start at an early age. It is quite evident in those jail house visits that there were many years of learned behavior, with no consequences or self reproach. It is maddening for most people to watch Casey laugh & talk about how she looks & the food being horrible, with no regard for her missing child. There may have been many blow-ups, but no followthru from the parents making her see the error of her ways. I think, from my own experience, that being a parent is the hardest job you will ever do. It is exhausting staying true to your convictions in order to TEACH the child right from wrong, but innately you know this groundwork is Essential for helping shape their decisions in future years to come. Children need parameters & limitations, and scream for it. I truly believe they intrepret this as your love for them, & they are WORTHY of your efforts. I think Casey has been screaming for this for a very long time. Give them enough rope & they will hang themselves. Quote to Lee when he asked her how she felt about Mom calling the police " Maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

 

[SeriouslySearching]

As far as Cindy and Casey go, I keep going back to Casey's statement to Yuri and John A. while they were at Universal. Casey said she was "petrified" of her mother's reaction and that she would never forgive her. She went on to mention the reaction she had gotten already and to me...it was all very telling.

 

[blupencl]

Isn’t it tempting to sit here and judge? You think you can pinpoint exactly where they went wrong .......... but you are looking BACKWARD through only a narrowly scoped tunnel into their lives, and only the negative parts at that. If you can predict murder your talents will be much in demand and I wish you much success. Big Snip Don’t discourage the drive and perseverance of people who may be reading this forum at this very moment looking to take positive steps toward improving their lives, or tarnish the fortitude of those who have taken risks and have already accomplished that. By that I mean both parents and dependent adult children. This outcome was an absolute worst case scenario.

This case is a long way from going to trial and most of what we know at this point in time is based on unproven information, rumor and speculation. My question to you. Do you believe the parents are all or in part responsible for “something” that happened.... without even knowing what happened? If so, what are the consequences to KC. Do you see the irony in that?

This was a very good post.

 

[Manny]

This was a very good post.

I agree with you. Being a critic is the easy, understanding, not so easy.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Isn’t it tempting to sit here and judge? You think you can pinpoint exactly where they went wrong .......... but you are looking BACKWARD through only a narrowly scoped tunnel into their lives, and only the negative parts at that. If you can predict murder your talents will be much in demand and I wish you much success.

Anyone can look backward. It’s like looking at a car’s tracks on a fresh blanket of snow. But look ahead and you see nothingness. The fact is the majority of families are no different than the Anthonys. And 99.9% of the children of these families will NOT grow up to be murders. But pick, pick, pick, I guarantee you, you could find "signs" in everyone. Human beings are not perfect. As children mature something clicks into place, some sooner, some later, there’s good times, there’s bad times, and parents breathe a huge silent sigh of relief when their children finally become independent. Look around, these typical families are everywhere.

In KCs taped interviews/calls with her parents, did you notice how ticked off she was because she couldn’t get out of jail. Did you notice she never showed any remorse or blamed herself for anything? Did you see that several times her parents urged her to talk to whoever she felt comfortable talking to, and asked that she tell the truth and not worry about them? They never asked her to lie or keep quiet, not once.

As far as reporting theft goes, you may or may not know that parents are often discouraged from reporting dependent children who steal small amounts of money from them merely “to teach them a lesson”. The reason is that gives them a criminal record that could have significant impact on their ability to get a job in the near future. Many employers check those things out in the hiring process and choose not to hire thieves.

KC was 22 years old and by every account I’ve read her stealing escalated with her newly discovered friends and single party life. The theft from the nursing home account was $50 I believe. The real issue is not the money, it was the BETRAYAL. Do you honestly think she would of become a changed person if that was reported? Anthony’s certainly would not have been granted permanent custody of Caylee over just that.

Your comments make we wonder why it seems you are angry at the Anthonys for what they did or didn’t do, but I’m not sure why. If either of them were actively involved in Caylee’s death, then they would deserve whatever mud was slung at them. To this point in time there is nothing to suggest that. CA did the right thing - she reported Caylee’s disappearance. As for KC....she was 22 years old and if her life was so bad, her mother so ruthless, her choice should have been to move out, get a job, find other single moms to hang out with, and find a safe environment where her child could be raised - give up custody of Caylee to whoever she chose - or walk into a hospital/mental health unit/phoned a crisis line and ask for help.

Don’t discourage the drive and perseverance of people who may be reading this forum at this very moment looking to take positive steps toward improving their lives, or tarnish the fortitude of those who have taken risks and have already accomplished that. By that I mean both parents and dependent adult children. This outcome was an absolute worst case scenario.

This case is a long way from going to trial and most of what we know at this point in time is based on unproven information, rumor and speculation. My question to you. Do you believe the parents are all or in part responsible for “something” that happened.... without even knowing what happened? If so, what are the consequences to KC. Do you see the irony in that?

I am not going to argue with you and I stand my every word I have said about what ALL parents need to do to teach their children right from wrong. Don't do it, do what The A's have done and watch what happens to the children. I do not need hindsight, it is PROVEN!

I have said time and again that I do not fault cindy or George for Caylee's death.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree with you. Being a critic is the easy, understanding, not so easy.

I understand plenty.

 

[PaddieAB]

"Quote to Lee when he asked her how she felt about Mom calling the police " Maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

Why Casey lied....."Casey said she was "petrified" of her mother's reaction and that she would never forgive her."

reeseeva and Seriously, to me these two comments perfectly illustrate KCs blame-game against her mother, which was my point that KC needs to take responsibility and QUIT BLAMING. It's also at the heart of the hold she has/had over her CA. CA simply can do no right, regardless of what she does.

It's her mothers fault for not calling the police a long time ago? CA did call the police, but it's just that she didn't call at the right time? So now KC won't tell the truth, because why, she's punishing her mom for not calling sooner? Huh?

KC strings people along with a fabricated story. Then she admits she lied ONLY when she's forced in a corner. But all she can come up with, to continue to hide the truth behind what she's done is "mommy's going to be mad at me"? If my memory serves me correctly, even the investigators looked baffled at that one.

 

[PaddieAB]

I am not going to argue with you and I stand my every word I have said about what ALL parents need to do to teach their children right from wrong. Don't do it, do what The A's have done and watch what happens to the children. I do not need hindsight, it is PROVEN!

I have said time and again that I do not fault cindy or George for Caylee's death.

I do not want to argue either. Certainly parents need to teach their children right from wrong. I agree 100%. My children are well past all of that, but truthfully I only consider myself lucky at the draw, because I know others who were better parents than me who cannot say the same. It's really unfair to automatically blame parents for the behavior of their adult child and that is what I feel the need to defend. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[MsMacGyver]

There's alot of good points made here..Nice to see a spirited exchange without attacks to each other. God knows as a single parent I have made my share of mistakes raising my kids. I think the bottom line for me is that KC IS an adult and must take responsibility for her own actions. I remember my son always blaming someone or something for his mistakes and it took alot of talking to him to make him realize that his actions were his own and as long as he was willing to pay the consequences for them it was up to him how he chose to behave.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

"Quote to Lee when he asked her how she felt about Mom calling the police " Maybe this should have been done a long time ago"

Why Casey lied....."Casey said she was "petrified" of her mother's reaction and that she would never forgive her."

reeseeva and Seriously, to me these two comments perfectly illustrate KCs blame-game against her mother, which was my point that KC needs to take responsibility and QUIT BLAMING. It's also at the heart of the hold she has/had over her CA. CA simply can do no right, regardless of what she does.

It's her mothers fault for not calling the police a long time ago? CA did call the police, but it's just that she didn't call at the right time? So now KC won't tell the truth, because why, she's punishing her mom for not calling sooner? Huh?

KC strings people along with a fabricated story. Then she admits she lied ONLY when she's forced in a corner. But all she can come up with, to continue to hide the truth behind what she's done is "mommy's going to be mad at me"? If my memory serves me correctly, even the investigators looked baffled at that one.

It also makes me wonder WHEN this exchange actually took place between Casey and Cindy and if this wasn't what the fight was really about instead of mundane issues such as checks etc. I also think that Cindy holds many of the answers here as to what truly happened to Caylee.

"There IS NO evidence", Cindy stated on the stand at the first bond hearing. Those words, among many other comments, continue to ring in my ears.

 

[gardenhart]

As far as Cindy and Casey go, I keep going back to Casey's statement to Yuri and John A. while they were at Universal. Casey said she was "petrified" of her mother's reaction and that she would never forgive her. She went on to mention the reaction she had gotten already and to me...it was all very telling.

I don't think Casey was petrified of her mother or anyone else. I think her parents were petrified of her. Go back and listen to those first jail phone calls with her mother, the ones when she didn't know she was being recorded. Does Casey sound petrified? Who is talking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, appeasing, and who is being sarcastic, hateful and disdainful?

 

[Gma Kat]

Yes I agree CAs dead body smell comment tells us at some level she believed KC was capable of killing Caylee - possibly CAs worst nightmare. Thank you for reminding me I do not always write what I mean to say, and I'm sincere in that!

I believe CA had that fear for awhile, for months and maybe longer. IMO that’s why they tolerated KCs irresponsible behavior longer than she deserving of. Child custody laws are not based on grandparents fears.

I babbling onward, and OT, but I’m still stuck on the theory that Anthonys have been more cooperative with the police than the media has led us to believe. The face they put to the media was partly due to denial, but also I believe in the vain hope that if they showed “public support” toward KC she would tell the truth. That truth - what actually happened - is what the Anthonys need to know. They may have to sooner or later face the fact they may never get the truth, even if KC is convicted. Even worse if KC and her defense team play the parents-are-to-blame game.

I had read the transcripts of all three 911 calls months ago. By now anyone remotely interested in this case has heard or saw that one short segment of the 3rd 911 call around the dead body smell repeated over and over, to a point it’s become THE call. So yesterday I thought I would read the call transcripts over again. I happened upon the full audio files and listened to those for the first time.

My gosh, the full audio are revealing because of the verbalized emotions, missed altogether in the printed transcripts. KCs defense team won’t want those tapes played to a jury more than once.

I noticed CA was quite calm and almost businesslike at the beginning of the 1st call (must have been a little weird for the operators considering what she was calling about) and her tone moved to spilling forth with what sounded to be sheer desperation and panic by the 3rd call.

Then the operators asked to speak to KC ....didn’t appear to want second hand info from grandma. KCs voice was purely sullen and she spit out no more information than what was asked.....the total contrast to her mother’s emotional state is very revealing. KC makes a lot of emphasis on MY...no it is MY car, Caylee was with MY nanny, MY, MY, MY....

I’m including the link if anyone wants to listen or relisten. But it’s not pleasant so PLEASE save this sleuthing until after Christmas.....

See: A List of Online Audio File
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71772

I agree with your observations. I did the same comparison awhile back and came to the same conclusion. The few spontaneous moments in this case are the most compelling and revealing. It stands out with us and surely it will stand out with a jury if prosecution presents it properly. I think your point about hearing partial calls etc., is well taken. I have found that reading and/or listening/watching the entirety of what has been released (and I don't pay attention to transcripts provided by NG or whoever - they are terribly inacurrate) sheds a different light on things. Sometimes it has revealed more about the A's and sometimes the media has proven to have made a mountain out of a moehill. The media and we WS'rs need to be careful not to latch on to soundbites and video loops, they distort the reality of the case and hide the truth. The truth is nothing that needs to be hidden, disguised or teased in a highlite reel. I am going to reread this case beginning to end because the information looks different down the road....