Documentary Claims Jesus Was Married

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dark Knight said:
Our faith is based on the resurrection, and this is an attempt to discredit that.
Not according to the Catholic priest they had there. By him, it's not a problem of faith if this were to be real. The fundamentalist in the middle figures that my big toe is such a part of me that if it doesn't go to heaven, everything is lost, but not the Catholic. Seems to me there's some pretty clear quotes establishing that there is the physical and the spiritual body.

If it proves true, I'm sure the church will adapt to it, just as they did Galileo.
 
tybee204 said:
It is my opinion that the Resurrection and Imaculate Conception are interpretations promoted to show the Church as the one true religion above and beyond previous manifestations. To elevate Christ above past dispensations and Prophets. The greater the miracle the more powerful the Prophet.
Raising Lazarus from the dead after four days was pretty impressive 2me. After that, I'm surprised that the Romans dared to get rid of Jesus.
 
LovelyPigeon said:
It's interesting, at the least, that Jerusalem already has 2 locations that claim to be the tomb of Jesus. One is the Garden Tomb, thought to have been on the property belonging to Joseph of Arimaethea, and the other is the Holy Sepulchre, which the mother of Constantine claimed to find (along with the crosses of Jesus and the 2 thieves crucified on each side of him) about 300 years after Jesus died.

The previous tombs of Jesus weren't found by archeologists but by individual believers hundreds to thousands of years later, based on what they believed the NT said compared to what they saw in the landscape and heard from legends around Jerusalem.

The tomb located in 1980 in the southern Jerusalem sector is at least the 3rd location with claims as a possible site of the tomb of Jesus. The Holy Sepulchre location is in the northwest sector of Jerusalem. The Garden Tomb is also in the northwestern sector. Does anyone know the distance apart the locations are?

(Jerusalem also has a tomb that is claimed to belong to Mary, the mother of Jesus, near the Mount of Olives. Other locations, like Ephesus, make similar claims.)

There are actually three churches that claim to have the tomb of Jesus. As you said, there is the Garden tomb (east of the Old City at the foot of the Mount of Olives), the Holy Sepulchre (in the Armenian section of the Old City but marking a spot, Calgary Hill, that was once to the West of Old Jerusalem), and there is also a very well known tomb to the North of the City, near Damascus Gate. Sorry. I can't remember which church owns this tomb but when I do a search I just find hundreds of pictures of this new one. :rolleyes:

The only evidence any of these three sites is based on is that they are first-century rock-cut tombs. There is a real competition between the different churches to be the "owners" of THE tomb. However, tey are far from the only similar tombs of the date that are known in the area. Truly, you can wander through just about any valley and wadi in Israel and you can find tombs. The Kidron Valley through East Jerusalem has several such tombs -- some quite monumental and beautiful. The Holy Sepulchre probably has the best claim for the Jesus tomb due to location and tradition but I guess you just have to choose one and have faith that you chose correctly.
 
Cypros said:
The only evidence any of these three sites is based on is that they are first-century rock-cut tombs.

The Holy Sepulchre was covered over not just by tons of earth and rock but also by a pagan temple built above the spot when Constantine's mother 'discovered' it. At least, that's what I've been able to find by googling.

Also, at the Holy Sepulchre site, Constantine's mother claimed to have found 3 crosses, and in order to find out which was Jesus' as opposed to the 2 thieves, a sick man was taken to the 3 crosses and when one of them healed him, that was declared the "true cross". The "true cross" has been displayed, stolen, returned, hidden, etc over the centuries, but for those looking for DNA belonging to Jesus, perhaps they'd have to look no further?

Some believe the Shroud of Turin is the "true shroud" that covered Jesus in death. Maybe it too would be source for DNA?
 
LovelyPigeon said:
The Holy Sepulchre was covered over not just by tons of earth and rock but also by a pagan temple built above the spot when Constantine's mother 'discovered' it. At least, that's what I've been able to find by googling.

Also, at the Holy Sepulchre site, Constantine's mother claimed to have found 3 crosses, and in order to find out which was Jesus' as opposed to the 2 thieves, a sick man was taken to the 3 crosses and when one of them healed him, that was declared the "true cross". The "true cross" has been displayed, stolen, returned, hidden, etc over the centuries, but for those looking for DNA belonging to Jesus, perhaps they'd have to look no further?

Some believe the Shroud of Turin is the "true shroud" that covered Jesus in death. Maybe it too would be source for DNA?


Yes, the fact that there was a pagan temple over the site, is one of the pieces of evidence that shows it was a recognized sacred site for some time before the 4th century when Constantine's Mother arrived in the Holy Land to identify the holy sites and claim them in the name of the Empire. The story about the 3 crosses and healing is part of the lore.

The Shroud of Turin is a forgery -- albeit a very good one. Not only is it carbon dated to the time when it turned up in the historical record as a relic (13th or 14th century, can't remember), but it is clear just by looking at it that it is a fake unless Jesus' body was flat like a pancake (or perhaps flat as papyrus is a better analogy). All you have to do is look how the tops of the two heads (front and back) come together and you know this image was not created by a 3D body wrapped inside the shroud. It has also been shown that the image could have easily been "burned" onto the cloth using an ancient "photographic" methods (known to Da Vinci) using a simple pinhole and sunlight. Sadly, the faithful have been taken by such hoaxes for centuries.
 
So I guess acquiring DNA from a known forgery(shroud of Turin) would be useless and the true cross isn't around to be a source, either.

The DNA found in the "Jesus" ossuary apparently isn't remarkable in composition, so I guess Christians would argue it couldn't possibly belong to Jesus Christ who would be expected to have some unique DNA composition because he had no earthly father.

Or can we expect God to have DNA similar to humans because the Bible states that God made man in his own image (even if the image was created out of dirt)?

I'm intrigued that if the story of Jesus' bodily ascension is to be taken literally, whether that means that the body Jesus walked around in after his resurrection is the perfect new body that Christians can expect to have when they are resurrected. Jesus' resurrected body wasn't readily recognized by Mary, by his disciples, by the apostles. The holes in his hands (it would actually have been in wrists) and feet from cruxifiction remained (according to the gospel John), as did the cut in his side inflicted after death by a Roman soldier at the cross (doubting Thomas was able to put his hand inside Jesus' chest through that cut).
 
LovelyPigeon said:
So I guess acquiring DNA from a known forgery(shroud of Turin) would be useless and the true cross isn't around to be a source, either.

The DNA found in the "Jesus" ossuary apparently isn't remarkable in composition, so I guess Christians would argue it couldn't possibly belong to Jesus Christ who would be expected to have some unique DNA composition because he had no earthly father.

Or can we expect God to have DNA similar to humans because the Bible states that God made man in his own image (even if the image was created out of dirt)?

I'm intrigued that if the story of Jesus' bodily ascension is to be taken literally, whether that means that the body Jesus walked around in after his resurrection is the perfect new body that Christians can expect to have when they are resurrected. Jesus' resurrected body wasn't readily recognized by Mary, by his disciples, by the apostles. The holes in his hands (it would actually have been in wrists) and feet from cruxifiction remained (according to the gospel John), as did the cut in his side inflicted after death by a Roman soldier at the cross (doubting Thomas was able to put his hand inside Jesus' chest through that cut).
Well, Christians claim our DNA has changed since Adam and Eve times, thus allowing them to procreate with relatives and having no birth defects..

I wouldn't think they would think Gods DNA would be the same as ours but I could be wrong...
 
narlacat said:
Well, Christians claim our DNA has changed since Adam and Eve times, thus allowing them to procreate with relatives and having no birth defects..

Which Christians claim that? This is the first I have heard of that one. It reflects a true lack of understanding of DNA.
 
Maybe So said:
I can just see a TV special with Geraldo and the opening of the tomb of Jesus.....and finding nothing in it....LOL
LOL!!! Or drawing a map in the sand to the real location. :eek:
 
narlacat said:
Well, Christians claim our DNA has changed since Adam and Eve times, thus allowing them to procreate with relatives and having no birth defects..

I wouldn't think they would think Gods DNA would be the same as ours but I could be wrong...

I don't think I've heard of this Christian claim, but perhaps it rises as a question of where did Eve get her mitochondrial DNA. The creationist answer would be that God created it for Eve.

A literal belief in the OT would have all living humans in the world today descended from Noah (of the Ark fame) through his sons and their wives, Noah having been a direct descendent of Adam and Eve. It would literally mean that we should all have the same DNA if we all descended from the same 2 parents, Adam & Eve--wouldn't it?

It seems to me that the question of Jesus' DNA would involve the combination of the mitrochondrial DNA of his mother Mary and the DNA of the Holy Spirit sent by God to impregnate her. If Jesus' DNA had been sampled, wouldn't it be unique to the DNA of all descendants of Adam & Eve, reflecting the unique parentage that contributed to his existence on earth?
 
Anyone know when it will be repeated? I'd like to see the whole program.

ETA, If DNA is extracted, wouldn't it be interesting to compare it to that of Mary and her husband Joseph? If it proves that Joseph is the bio father, what would that do to the Christian teachings? Of course, if Mary were pregnant at the time of her marriage to Joseph, then the father is still speculation.
 
LovelyPigeon said:
So I guess acquiring DNA from a known forgery(shroud of Turin) would be useless and the true cross isn't around to be a source, either.

The DNA found in the "Jesus" ossuary apparently isn't remarkable in composition, so I guess Christians would argue it couldn't possibly belong to Jesus Christ who would be expected to have some unique DNA composition because he had no earthly father.

Or can we expect God to have DNA similar to humans because the Bible states that God made man in his own image (even if the image was created out of dirt)?

I'm intrigued that if the story of Jesus' bodily ascension is to be taken literally, whether that means that the body Jesus walked around in after his resurrection is the perfect new body that Christians can expect to have when they are resurrected. Jesus' resurrected body wasn't readily recognized by Mary, by his disciples, by the apostles. The holes in his hands (it would actually have been in wrists) and feet from cruxifiction remained (according to the gospel John), as did the cut in his side inflicted after death by a Roman soldier at the cross (doubting Thomas was able to put his hand inside Jesus' chest through that cut).
What was left of what was believed to be the True Cross was burned by the Muslims during the Crusades following a battle, unfortunately.
 
LovelyPigeon said:
So I guess acquiring DNA from a known forgery(shroud of Turin) would be useless and the true cross isn't around to be a source, either.

The DNA found in the "Jesus" ossuary apparently isn't remarkable in composition, so I guess Christians would argue it couldn't possibly belong to Jesus Christ who would be expected to have some unique DNA composition because he had no earthly father.

Or can we expect God to have DNA similar to humans because the Bible states that God made man in his own image (even if the image was created out of dirt)?

I'm intrigued that if the story of Jesus' bodily ascension is to be taken literally, whether that means that the body Jesus walked around in after his resurrection is the perfect new body that Christians can expect to have when they are resurrected. Jesus' resurrected body wasn't readily recognized by Mary, by his disciples, by the apostles. The holes in his hands (it would actually have been in wrists) and feet from cruxifiction remained (according to the gospel John), as did the cut in his side inflicted after death by a Roman soldier at the cross (doubting Thomas was able to put his hand inside Jesus' chest through that cut).
The Shroud hasn't been proven to be a forgery. The material closest to the image needs to be tested, as only the fringe material has been so far.

And Jesus could have been nailed through His hands if His arms were supported by ropes, which wasn't uncommon.
 
Dark Knight said:
The Shroud hasn't been proven to be a forgery. The material closest to the image needs to be tested, as only the fringe material has been so far.

That's correct, DK, the Shroud has not been proven to be a forgery.

From this link

It was not until 2005 that things changed. An article appeared in a peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta, which proved that the carbon 14 dating was flawed because the sample was invalid. Moreover, this article, by Raymond N. Rogers, a well-published chemist, and a Fellow of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, explained why the cloth was much older. It was at least twice as old as the radiocarbon date, and possibly 2000 years old.

It was Nature, another prestigious peer-reviewed journal, that in 1989, reported that carbon 14 dating ‘proved’ the shroud was a hoax. Rogers found no fault with the article in Nature. Nor did he find fault with the quality of the carbon 14 dating. He defended it. What Rogers found was that the carbon 14 sample was taken from a mended area of the cloth that contained significant amounts of newer material. This was not the fault of the radiocarbon laboratories. But it did show that the dating was invalid.

Immediately after the publication of Rogers’ paper, Nature published a commentary by scientist-journalist Philip Ball. “Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game,” he wrote, “but don't imagine that they will convince anyone . . . The scientific study of the Turin shroud is like a microcosm of the scientific search for God: it does more to inflame any debate than settle it.” Later in his commentary Ball added, “And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artefact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made.”

Ball, who understood the chemistry of the shroud’s images, rejected a notion popularized by many news accounts that Leonardo da Vinci created the image using primitive photography. He called the idea flaky. He also debunked the sometimes reported speculation that the image was “burned into the cloth by some kind of release of nuclear energy” from Jesus’ body. This he said was wild.

Almost all serious shroud researchers agree with Ball on these points. When flaky and wild ideas appear in newspaper articles or on television, as they often do, scientists cringe. Rogers referred to those who held such views as being part of the “lunatic fringe” of shroud research. But Rogers was just as critical of those who, without the benefit of solid science, declared the shroud a fake. They, too, were part of the lunatic fringe.
 
As I said, all you have to do is LOOK at the shroud and you can tell it is a fake. :rolleyes:
 
Pepper said:
Anyone know when it will be repeated? I'd like to see the whole program.

ETA, If DNA is extracted, wouldn't it be interesting to compare it to that of Mary and her husband Joseph? If it proves that Joseph is the bio father, what would that do to the Christian teachings? Of course, if Mary were pregnant at the time of her marriage to Joseph, then the father is still speculation.

I'm sure it would have been interesting to people around Mary and Joseph at the time. The NT has hints that there were people, including Pharisees, who were aware that Mary was pregnant before she and Joseph married.

Some of the ossuaries found in the same tomb were "clean" and have no residue left inside. The ossuaries marked "Jesus" and "Mariamne" had bone fragments in the bottom, and were used for DNA.

Further scientific examination of the ossuaries should be done to determine if any other DNA can be gathered and compared.
 
Cypros said:
As I said, all you have to do is LOOK at the shroud and you can tell it is a fake. :rolleyes:
I'm surprised to hear you say that, in light of all the credible scientific evidence to the contrary. Unless, of course, you mean it is a fake in that you don't believe the image on the Shroud is that of Jesus.
 
Cypros said:
Which Christians claim that? This is the first I have heard of that one. It reflects a true lack of understanding of DNA.

Cypros, you can find that claim in any of the old "evolution" threads. It was also mentioned in the "Incest in the Bible?" thread a month or two ago.

The idea is that Adam and Eve were genetically "pure" and the rest of us are their genetically corrupted descendants. It seems an attempt to make DNA reflect concepts of original sin.

I don't get it either, and it has been explained to me several times in threads.
 
Nova said:
Cypros, you can find that claim in any of the old "evolution" threads. It was also mentioned in the "Incest in the Bible?" thread a month or two ago.

The idea is that Adam and Eve were genetically "pure" and the rest of us are their genetically corrupted descendants. It seems an attempt to make DNA reflect concepts of original sin.

I don't get it either, and it has been explained to me several times in threads.
Thanks, Nova. I wondered about what Christians believed that, too.
 
Maral said:
Thanks, Nova. I wondered about what Christians believed that, too.

I'm sure I'm not doing justice to the concept, since I admit I don't really understand it.

I have no opinion about the Shroud of Turin, but I enjoyed your summary of it above.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
145
Guests online
3,689
Total visitors
3,834

Forum statistics

Threads
603,699
Messages
18,161,160
Members
231,830
Latest member
Tenae
Back
Top