Egypt Air flight 804 missing, 19 May 2016

[emirates1957]

Then there is this:

he pilot of EgyptAir Flight 804 spoke to air traffic control for “several minutes” before the doomed aircraft took its fatal plunge, according to a report that directly contradicts initial accounts of the crash.Pilot Mohamed Said Shoukair had “a conversation” with air traffic controllers in Cairo, according to The Independent, citing French television station M6..
After the conversation, the pilot made an “emergency descent” in an effort to depressurize the cabin and clear the smoke, according to the French station.


Why this remains in the "vague" column, IMO, indicates nonsense. They interview everyone involved. It is not difficult to ascertain if ATC had interactions with this plane. You interview them, did you talk to flight 804 regard a rapid descent. Then play back the tapes. It is a yes or no deal!! Cofirmed or denied in three hours! Give me a break!

I am more inclined to believe this than not to. There was a release early in the story that there had been contact regarding an issue aboard. Then nothing more said about it.

It is almost as if they knew (interview) released the info , then were ordered not to say anything further about this angle, becasue it contradicts a instant event (bomb). In any case releasing this , if it happened can increase liability. If it was fire aboard, not related to a bomb, that could be liabity issues.

We know plane was worked hard. Strcutural failure also takes the airline back to liability concerns. IMO

In the context of the whole deal , if the interaction occurred, it was not a distress call, it is advising Air Traffic Control that they are deviating from assigned flight level so air traffic control can get other aircraft in the area out of the way to avoid a collision. Air controllers are not trained in A320 systems! An air traffic controller cant "help" pilots with aircraft that are experincing an emergency.

Def pondering if Egypt AIr prefers it to be terrorism, as it relates solely to $$ -liaability.

Another possibility is some type of catastrophic metal fatigue caused by the cycle of pressurization and depressurization associated with each takeoff and landing cycle

pilots are trained to focus first on the emergency at hand and then communicate only when free.

Authorities haven't said whether they lost only the secondary radar target, which is created by the plane's transponder, or whether the primary radar target, created by energy reflected from the plane, was lost as well.

If a plane came apart in the air or suffered a loss of electrical power, the secondary target would be lost, but the primary target is often still visible on radar. But if a plane were descending at rate of over 6,000 feet a minute — typical of a plane about to crash — the primary target might be lost as well.

.......age itself isn’t really the issue airlines consider when it comes to maintanence. Rather, it’s the number of flight cycles (how many times a plane takes off and lands) and hours in the air, Bowen said

It is unusual this far out for the number of cycles and flight hours not to be released. DO you think Egytpt Air does not want that info out???

http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/egyptair-pilot-reportedly-spoke-with-air-traffic-control-minutes-before-crash/

http://www.ibtimes.com/germanwings-9525-how-does-airline-decide-plane-too-old-fly-1857746

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/qa-what-might-have-happened-airasia-flight___

Flight cycles are all logged and certain maintenance checks must be conducted as per the cycles. Also when the next crew took over the A/C they would also be aware of the maintenance log/checks. Pilot's do not want to take an A/C out that is not airworthy .....big, big risks.My ex husband was an Engineer for 40 years - (I can only speak on behalf of the airlines I have worked for)......nobody would be signing out an A/C if the appropriate maintenance had not been done. If he did sign it off knowing that something was not right - it would be his arse in a court of law.

 

[gregjrichards]

Go to 19:30 for reenactment of decompression,.


Visuals are from a movie.

The captions on the bottom are directly from the NTBS' final report

[video=youtube;Lbny8XnAifY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY[/video]

Good God don't watch if you have a fear of flying those poor people.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

This is the very best explanation I have found so far. Imo I'm more inclined to think there was an intentional explosion onboard, especially after reading this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hat-does-the-data-from-egyptair-ms804s-senso/

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I think the media, in it's haste to get info fed to the public, insinuated there was a fire and that it was reported from the plane as such, maybe even from a pilot himself. In all reality, what it looks like is that the fault codes from the sensors to ACARS is what was being quickly interpreted by "laypeople" so to speak. In their haste to report, they may not have been thorough, therefore misleading the public. Doesn't seem to me that either pilot would actually have the time to report this. They would have already been involuntarily decending due to lack of control with the front right of the plane blown out - if they were even still in the plane instead of being sucked out.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I think the media, in it's haste to get info fed to the public, insinuated there was a fire and that it was reported from the plane as such, maybe even from a pilot himself. In all reality, what it looks like is that the fault codes from the sensors to ACARS is what was being quickly interpreted by "laypeople" so to speak. In their haste to report, they may not have been thorough, therefore misleading the public. Doesn't seem to me that either pilot would actually have the time to report this. They would have already been involuntarily decending due to lack of control with the front right of the plane blown out - if they were even still in the plane instead of being sucked out.

Sorry to quote myself but I keep going back to this...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/egyptair-804-not-attacked-terrorists-8028828

EgyptAir 804 was not attacked by terrorists says experts
23:23, 22 MAY 2016UPDATED 05:55, 23 MAY 2016
BY JEREMY ARMSTRONG , CHRIS HUGHES

But according to aviation sources in France, the Egyptian pilot contacted air-traffic control about smoke which he said was filling the plane and told them he was going to make an emergency descent.

There was “conversation several minutes long” between Captain Shoukair and the controllers, which amounted to a distress call, according to the source.

French TV channel M6 reported that the pilot then initiated a “rapid descent” aimed at putting out the fire on board and clearing the smoke.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I just read something online that talked about a plane crashing into the ocean from a high altitude - be it from an incendiary device, birds or a mechanical loss - and it said that a nose first dive shows greater damage than a plane falling flat. I was wondering about a nosedive impact if the nose or part of it were missing.

 

[CARIIS]

Egypt's state-owned newspaper:

11 "electronic messages" starting at 5.09 p.m. ET on May 18, about 3 1/2 hours before disappearing from radar screens
The first two messages indicated the engines were functional. The third message came at 8.26 p.m. ET on May 18 and showed a rise in the temperature of the co-pilot's window.


Egypt's forensics authority dismissed as premature a suggestion that the small size of the body parts retrieved since the Airbus 320 jet crashed indicated there had been an explosion on board.
An Egyptian forensics official said 23 bags of body parts had been collected, the largest no bigger than the palm of a hand. explosion, although no trace of explosives had been detected.


T...........logging smoke alarms in the forward lavatory and an electronics bay just underneath, but they are tantalizingly incomplete.

There are too few messages to fit a typical fire, which would normally trigger a cascade of error reports as multiple systems fail, /..........and too many of them to tie in neatly with a single significant explosion.
The Frenchman who headed a three-year probe into the 2009 loss of an Air France jet in the Atlantic said the data published so far appeared insufficient for any conclusion.

, lying in waters possibly 3,000 meters (10,000 feet) deep.
Egypt had not formally requested American support beyond a P-3 Orion surveillance aircraft, which was deployed on Thursday.


Eighteen loads of debris have been recovered,
......, five days after the crash, air traffic controllers from the two countries were still giving different accounts of its final moments.

In Greece, two officials stood by earlier statements that Greek radar had picked up sharp swings in the jet's trajectory - 90 degrees left, then 360 degrees right - as it plunged from a cruising altitude to 15,000 feet before vanishing.
............Egyptian officials had seen no sign of the plane making sharp turns, and that it had been visible at 37,000 feet until it disappeared.

......“There isn’t even a whole body part, like an arm or a head,

there was a blast, the cause was not known.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-egyptair-airplane-forensics-idUSKCN0YF12H

CNN part of the confusion between if it swerved might be more related to proximity of radar . The plane closer to Greece, so there radar may have been better as it relates to this.

They could not even get the three sentence interaction right, with what was going on on the screen and the voices jeezz

 

[JohnPaul]

with all the conflicting reports (in my opinion, speculation of course) it could be possible that "the carrier" (company) might be trying to cover something up,

this sounds bad but from a business point of view, the best possible outcome for "the carrier" (company) is for it to be blamed as a terrorist attack, this clears them of any lawsuits,

if it is proven to be a mechanical failure, pilot error, pilot suicide, etc etc, that would end up costing them billions of dollars in lawsuits,

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Has it been reported if anyone else was seated in the cockpit besides the captain and copilot?

 

[CARIIS]

Right, and this is what I think. I'm just confused why no full or substantial bodies were found given the salt content in the Mediterranean. I wonder if the front of the plane was blown out, it did a spiral, then where the nose would have been was the actual impact, pushing air within and hence the bodies to the tail being pinned in and pushed to the back. If that's the case, and if considering the density of the sea as well as the depth, I wonder if a portion of the plane could still be intact. I'd think if it entered the sea in such a way as a missile flies, then maybe a portion would be intact. If it fell belly down then could the impact have a worse affect? Would that depend on the structural engineering of the craft?

Actually a belly flop for lack of a better word is better. Fuesalge intact , more protection, impact more distributed over a larger "space", speeds would generally be lower. Nose down generates "speed" whereas a plane bellying still has its wings to kind of soften the decline.
Engines would hit first taking some of the force as well

Noone survived but Air France was a belly flop.........

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Airbus A320 Cockpit 360° Virtual Tour

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamil...amily/commonality/a320-cockpit-virtual-visit/

 

[Jersey*Girl]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/eg...m-can-t-be-ruled-out-foreign-minister-n579701

NEWS EGYPTAIR CRASH MAY 24 2016, 5:53 PM ET
EgyptAir Crash: Terrorism Can't Be Ruled Out, Foreign Minister Says
by BILL NEELY and ERIK ORTIZ

 

[Jersey*Girl]

This right here... About how long would it take for the plane to fall to the sea from several thousand feet in the sky? Possibly 3 minutes? Maybe?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-showed-no-signs-of-technical-fault-preflight

EgyptAir crash: plane showed 'no signs of technical fault' preflight
State-owned newspaper says Paris-Cairo flight MS804’s technical log, signed off by pilot, showed no problems
Reuters in Cairo
Tuesday 24 May 2016 19.34 EDT

The EgyptAir flight that crashed last week showed no technical problems before taking off from Paris according to an aircraft technical log signed by its pilot before takeoff, Egypt’s state-owned newspaper al-Ahram has said.

Al-Ahram published on Tuesday a scan of the log on its website. The paper said EgyptAir flight MS804 transmitted 11 electronic messages starting at 21.09 GMT on 18 May, about three and a half hours before disappearing from radar screens with 66 passengers and crew on board.

The first two messages indicated the engines were functional. The third message came at 00.26 GMT on 19 May and showed a rise in the temperature of the co-pilot’s window. The plane kept transmitting messages for the next three minutes before vanishing, al-Ahram said.

 

[CARIIS]

I think the media, in it's haste to get info fed to the public, insinuated there was a fire and that it was reported from the plane as such, maybe even from a pilot himself. In all reality, what it looks like is that the fault codes from the sensors to ACARS is what was being quickly interpreted by "laypeople" so to speak. In their haste to report, they may not have been thorough, therefore misleading the public. Doesn't seem to me that either pilot would actually have the time to report this. They would have already been involuntarily decending due to lack of control with the front right of the plane blown out - if they were even still in the plane instead of being sucked out.

Throughout ACARS I think we are dealing with a pretty intact and "flyable" plane. Although in deep distress, still more or less "working". One of the CARS messages was the basically the auto pilot disengaging, like without them asking it to! That is usually something cockpit people are "prepared" tp do.

Its like flooding them with a whole bunch of new stuff unasked for, suddenly. In the middle of this they would want to take over, but Airbus fly by wire sometimes keep control away from them. Airbus builds with the mindset that computers are smarter than mankind - and keep down human error, by limiting what pilots can or cant do. Which sounds great. But if the source of those computer decisions are being "driven" by errounous data ..............Basically Airbus guys are computer operators . They are managing computers that are managing the plane.

Boeing designs more that humans have the ultimate control - like "flying"

Endless contorversy about which design philosphy is best......

Jersey thanx xfor the 360 that is fun. Those who have not done it yet, go look where the pilot would sit forward. You will see no yoke (lookslike the steering wheel) then look over a little you will see a joystick. That is what flys airbus planes! The joystick!!

o/t Oh am having a blast with the 360!! You def do not want me flying anyone anywhere!!! SO many fun buttons to play with. Oh as a kid, I loved stopping elevators with the emergency pull, loved pushing every floor on the elvator getting out!! Buttons ummmmmmm!!

Here the complex sprinkler systems are controlled by remote controls. One guy let me play with it . It was awesome, I felt like I was directed a water show at Disney!! ON off left on right off center on off . He finally told me he needed it back.

I am 58 - this was two years ago ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh keep that child within!!


Back to my cockpit!! Please fasten your seat belts..............and hold tight!!

Oh my god I pushed on one arrow and it started going around and around, it was like oh i bet this is what it was like for pilots got a little dizzy wow

I wish I knew which dislplay would be ACARS, I was fascinated that they are displayed in the cockpit, and wondering how visible they are but dont know where they are. Still looking!!

 

[emirates1957]

This right here... About how long would it take for the plane to fall to the sea from several thousand feet in the sky? Possibly 3 minutes? Maybe?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-showed-no-signs-of-technical-fault-preflight

EgyptAir crash: plane showed 'no signs of technical fault' preflight
State-owned newspaper says Paris-Cairo flight MS804’s technical log, signed off by pilot, showed no problems
Reuters in Cairo
Tuesday 24 May 2016 19.34 EDT

Just check with one of the guys 3 - 5 minutes.

 

[CARIIS]

I found it! Here is the playback from flight 24 site the night it broke. This is congruent with the report that the accident sequence started at 37,000 feet with ACARS info makes sense that the transponder would be impacted by mist or smoke in the avionics bay. Does not mean IMO, plane vanished at 37 , rather it was expericing loss of the capacity to trnasmit radar via transponder - there is a difference IMO

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/su-gcc#9c0b766you have got to be kidding me--oppsssss

A French ship that was expected to help in the search for the black box of EgyptAir flight MS804 arrived at the crash site on Tuesday. However, officials in charge of the search said that the ship arrived without the black box signal receiver required for the search.

In addition, the ship is carrying a submarine that can only reach a depth of 3,200 metres, which is 800 metres short of the expected depth needed to reach the search area.A government source told Daily News Egypt that the government is negotiating with American companies to purchase the signal receiver as soon as possible.The Egyptian Navy assigned an ROV submarine to look for wreckage of the aeroplane along 50 lines of longitude across 75 nautical miles.

It will spend six days searching along each line. advised the Navy that they may need another submarine which can reach a depth of lower than 4,000 metres, as the ROV can only reach a maximum of 3,200 metres and

, it will be recovered with a winch that can lift a weight of up to 150 tonnes.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/05/24/french-ship-arrives-at-ms804-crash-site-without-black-box-signal-receiver/
CNN they had us believing (french airport) they did this sweeping security deal going on!

57 employees out of 86000 not a typo throughout 2015


That sonic boom you just heard was me pushing the wrong button on Jerseys 360 post I take no responsility!!


WOw this is about the plane that had to take evasive action cause of drones in its way. This is quite chilling...

A search has now been launched for the owner or owners of the three drones but an amateur enthusiast is not suspected.

Well , is there any other way to understand that statement???

Now that is scary!!

http://www.airlive.net/all-articles/

 

[CARIIS]

Very interesting reports regarding terror and this crash - more substance than CNN endless regergatation of same ole same ole !

[video=youtube;jaLVSbG3maE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLVSbG3maE[/video]

I am going to have to seperate posts cause one cant post multple videos in one post. Def better reporting IMO!

 

[gregjrichards]

I found it! Here is the playback from flight 24 site the night it broke. This is congruent with the report that the accident sequence started at 37,000 feet with ACARS info makes sense that the transponder would be impacted by mist or smoke in the avionics bay. Does not mean IMO, plane vanished at 37 , rather it was expericing loss of the capacity to trnasmit radar via transponder - there is a difference IMO

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/su-gcc#9c0b766you have got to be kidding me--oppsssss

A French ship that was expected to help in the search for the black box of EgyptAir flight MS804 arrived at the crash site on Tuesday. However, officials in charge of the search said that the ship arrived without the black box signal receiver required for the search.

In addition, the ship is carrying a submarine that can only reach a depth of 3,200 metres, which is 800 metres short of the expected depth needed to reach the search area.A government source told Daily News Egypt that the government is negotiating with American companies to purchase the signal receiver as soon as possible.The Egyptian Navy assigned an ROV submarine to look for wreckage of the aeroplane along 50 lines of longitude across 75 nautical miles.

It will spend six days searching along each line. advised the Navy that they may need another submarine which can reach a depth of lower than 4,000 metres, as the ROV can only reach a maximum of 3,200 metres and

, it will be recovered with a winch that can lift a weight of up to 150 tonnes.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/05/24/french-ship-arrives-at-ms804-crash-site-without-black-box-signal-receiver/
CNN they had us believing (french airport) they did this sweeping security deal going on!

57 employees out of 86000 not a typo throughout 2015


That sonic boom you just heard was me pushing the wrong button on Jerseys 360 post I take no responsility!!


WOw this is about the plane that had to take evasive action cause of drones in its way. This is quite chilling...

A search has now been launched for the owner or owners of the three drones but an amateur enthusiast is not suspected.

Well , is there any other way to understand that statement???

Now that is scary!!

http://www.airlive.net/all-articles/

A French ship that was expected to help in the search for the black box of EgyptAir flight MS804 arrived at the crash site on Tuesday. However, officials in charge of the search said that the ship arrived without the black box signal receiver required for the search.

You have got to be kidding me I'm getting MH370 deja vu

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

I think the media, in it's haste to get info fed to the public, insinuated there was a fire and that it was reported from the plane as such, maybe even from a pilot himself. In all reality, what it looks like is that the fault codes from the sensors to ACARS is what was being quickly interpreted by "laypeople" so to speak. In their haste to report, they may not have been thorough, therefore misleading the public. Doesn't seem to me that either pilot would actually have the time to report this. They would have already been involuntarily decending due to lack of control with the front right of the plane blown out - if they were even still in the plane instead of being sucked out.

Eh? ACARS messages are an automatic process, the pilots have no input. The official and unofficial sources that provided the ACARS messages have asserted this is the complete broadcast.

The only thing those messages tell us is that something happened, not what happened. Depending on the nature of the failure, they may just be a confused electronic attempt to understand something rather than the actual events.

The priority for the crew is the plane and it's passengers - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - in that order.

The only thing that we can feel relatively sure of at this point is that the crew never made it to the "Communicate" step, and it seems likely they didn't get past just trying to keep the plane flying.

 

[CARIIS]

http://www.msnbc.com/weekends-with-...-onboard-egyptair-missing-flight-690191427963