Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[Conductor71]

Is that kind of like a crime blotter section of the paper, but more of a 'result of investigation' blotter? I live in a big city with a lot of crime, but I'm not familiar with a formalized section like that in our newspaper. Maybe it is just the paper's way of streamlining the follow-up info for the especially large amount of crime in a huge city like LA?

Essentially it is just that; deaths that are recorded as undetermined go here and are later updated. There is a link to Cause of Death Determinations :

Los Angeles County coroner's officials routinely provide The Times with a weekly list of deaths initially considered to be homicides.

Reporters follow up with the department to obtain additional information about each case and, in some cases, learn that the victim's cause of death has been deferred. This means the final determination on the mode of death is postponed pending additional laboratory tests. The death can later be ruled natural, a homicide, a suicide or an accident. The results usually are available within six to eight weeks.

It looks like; however, all equivocal autopsies that are deferred go here. Interesting to note that the list has not been updated since December 2012, so looks like there really is some sort of backlog with the coroner.

BTW, if anyone is interested and you have a Google mail account, you can receive an alert on your account when any news is released on EL. I have received two alerts thus far, so it def works.

 

[findinganatta]

Essentially it is just that; deaths that are recorded as undetermined go here and are later updated. There is a link to Cause of Death Determinations :

Los Angeles County coroner's officials routinely provide The Times with a weekly list of deaths initially considered to be homicides.

Reporters follow up with the department to obtain additional information about each case and, in some cases, learn that the victim's cause of death has been deferred. This means the final determination on the mode of death is postponed pending additional laboratory tests. The death can later be ruled natural, a homicide, a suicide or an accident. The results usually are available within six to eight weeks.

It looks like; however, all equivocal autopsies that are deferred go here. Interesting to note that the list has not been updated since December 2012, so looks like there really is some sort of backlog with the coroner.

BTW, if anyone is interested and you have a Google mail account, you can receive an alert on your account when any news is released on EL. I have received two alerts thus far, so it def works.

Interesting, thanks.

The Google news alert feature is great... using keywords, you can really specify what it alerts you to (like only stories that contain an aspect of a case), which can be very helpful.

 

[Fractal]

This is my first post, so please forgive me. Long time lurker though and this case has crawled deep into my brain unlike anything else. This is a tad off topic at this point, but here goes....I just re-watched the elevator footage for the first time in weeks. My natural reactions to her behaviour has now changed from that of "she is clearly high". For some reason all i see now is a happy individual, possibly somewhat bored, just trying to get the elevator doors to close, or to figure out why they won't. At the end she just exits elevator kind of saying "f*ck it". The reason she presses all the buttons is still beyond me (perhaps just being silly). Anyhow, I am more perplexed at the fact my opinion has totally changed about what it is I'm seeing on that vid. I know the footage has been beyond picked apart I just needed to throw that out there. Anyone else re-watch and find their reactions to be different at this point?

 

[LittleWing]

This is my first post, so please forgive me. Long time lurker though and this case has crawled deep into my brain unlike anything else. This is a tad off topic at this point, but here goes....I just re-watched the elevator footage for the first time in weeks. My natural reactions to her behaviour has now changed from that of "she is clearly high". For some reason all i see now is a happy individual, possibly somewhat bored, just trying to get the elevator doors to close, or to figure out why they won't. At the end she just exits elevator kind of saying "f*ck it". The reason she presses all the buttons is still beyond me (perhaps just being silly). Anyhow, I am more perplexed at the fact my opinion has totally changed about what it is I'm seeing on that vid. I know the footage has been beyond picked apart I just needed to throw that out there. Anyone else re-watch and find their reactions to be different at this point?

Welcome Fractal

I understand what you mean about this case!

I also experienced a change of mind in rewatching the video, several times. I went from believing she was scared and hiding, to playful, and now I've thrown my hands up in the air about it completely. That video is a crazy-maker. Of course I started to see what others pointed out and that also changed my opinion.

I wish LE would release the tox results already. So much for "this week".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Fractal]

Thanks for the welcome. Posting wasn't as scary as i thought it would be. Lol. But yes, the tox results are taking a creepily long time, and I know there are many factors that could be causing this outside of anything to directly do with Elisa or the nature of the case...but still. Honestly, even with her history of depression, I am starting to just feel that she was murdered, plain and simple. I don't think she was high, or having a psychotic episode. The hype and mystery of this case has us all grasping at straws and creating complicated scenarios. I did that myself and had sleepless nights over it when I first heard about it. There is this lull now; and in this silence and waiting all I can see is that she was a innocent, happy 20-something trying to figure herself out, who was lucky enough to have the opportunity to travel on her own. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Could have been me. Or any other young woman. Rest in Peace Elisa..

 

[findinganatta]

I'm curious, Finding do you live in Los Angeles? Ever been here? Ever been to DTLA?

Hi Sugar. Sorry, I missed this post before.

Nope, I'm actually from a big city in Texas. I have been to L.A. about six times in my life, including relatively extended stays of a few weeks. My closest family members live there, as well my oldest and best friend. And I've been to downtown L.A., but haven't experienced it extensively. It's probably the area of the city where I have spent the least time. But next time I'm there, I will at least drive by the Cecil, but more likely I'll try to explore it to some extent... I've already discussed it with my aunt, who is also interested in the case and can drive me.

But yes, the tox results are taking a creepily long time, and I know there are many factors that could be causing this outside of anything to directly do with Elisa or the nature of the case...but still. Honestly, even with her history of depression, I am starting to just feel that she was murdered, plain and simple.

snipped for space

I'm starting to feel that way, too, sometimes. At this point it's feeling like an overt withholding of the information, which hints at protecting a murder investigation (or some kind of serious corruption regarding the case, which is always theoretically possible). Can anyone else think of a past example of local authorities withholding tox results for this long? If so, please mention them... that might help put the situation into context.

On the flip side of the 'misadventure vs. foul play' issue--if it was foul play, I would personally find it very unusual that a perp wouldn't have bragged/confessed to someone by now (especially given the media attention), and that person would have gone to the authorities or told someone else... with the authorities ultimately finding out through one person or another. That's such a common way for killers to be found. Unfortunately, true anti-social personalities are often capable of keeping quiet, so it's hard to know. Ugh...

 

[findinganatta]

I'm curious, Finding do you live in Los Angeles? Ever been here? Ever been to DTLA?

I forgot to ask in my last reply, what made you ask? Just curious

 

[Kaliste]

What the heck is the hold up in this case? Is the tox screen taking forever because she's not a US citizen? Do different rules apply for foreign visitors? Maybe all officials involved in both countries have to sign off on it or something? No clue how this stuff works!

For a while the Chinese papers were keeping pretty good tabs on this case. Has that fizzled out a bit?

 

[Conductor71]

This is my first post, so please forgive me. Long time lurker though and this case has crawled deep into my brain unlike anything else.Anyhow, I am more perplexed at the fact my opinion has totally changed about what it is I'm seeing on that vid. I know the footage has been beyond picked apart I just needed to throw that out there. Anyone else re-watch and find their reactions to be different at this point?

I feel the same way. I think not a few of us more "mature" sleuths see how that could have been one of us. I did most of my international traveling solo in my 20's and was both street savvy and culturally naive. With hindsight, I was fortunate.

Yes, my opinion has swung back and forth, and I was nearly convinced that EL's death may have been accidental, but the longer we go with no word from the LAPD and no reporter involvement confirms foul play for me.

Leaving Lam's body in the water tanks was not some desperate attempt to get rid of the body. It was an idea that could only come from the most twisted of individuals.

Another aspect of the case, which I find highly suspect, is the behavior of the LAPD. I think this case is bigger than it appears publicly. It would not surprise me if members of the LAPD were involved in some way or had some connection to the individuals "operating" at the hotel. All of this stinks. I get the feeling that someone has tied the police's hands regarding the coroner's findings and toxicology report.

The LAPD's behavior was a clue to me that something else was going on, but the media's silence clinched it for me. All media reports stopped within 2 days of the autopsy results, a fading away of media interest would not play out this way. They were asked not to report on it anymore. Almost 4 months later, there is no further info from reporters in three different countries?

The only time the media goes mute is when reporting a suicide or when complying with a request by LE so as not to compromise a murder investigation. I hardly think EL's death was suicidal. What ruined the psychosis angle for me is that the evidence was circumstantial at best and it seems to be predicated on the assumption that the police have no evidence of foul play; not to mention that if they really did think it was her mental health related we would know that by now. Although at some point, we have all been guilty of thinking that there is no evidence beyond what has been reported when forming our theories.

The involvement of Interpol is important too, IMO. They do not routinely get involved in cases of missing adults; that would have defaulted to the Canadian Consulate. The death is under such bizarre circumstances, maybe they checked for similar cases on an International level using Interpol. In fact, I am now thinking that this is how the media has gone silent in Canada, China, and the US; I don't think the LAPD alone has that level of influence.

I have thought the water tank was not a random, "lucky" choice of a spontaneous homicide but planned and even the video somewhat intentional. Not that EL acted anything out under duress but rather she was slipped something in anticipation that she would be caught on camera for whatever reason.

 

[Conductor71]

On the flip side of the 'misadventure vs. foul play' issue--if it was foul play, I would personally find it very unusual that a perp wouldn't have bragged/confessed to someone by now (especially given the media attention), and that person would have gone to the authorities or told someone else... with the authorities ultimately finding out through one person or another. That's such a common way for killers to be found. Unfortunately, true anti-social personalities are often capable of keeping quiet, so it's hard to know. Ugh...

Maybe the perp gets off on media attention? That is not uncommon. This too could play into the lack of coverage on the case. Maybe LE is using social media to their advantage thinking that if they go silent enough the perp will go "public''so to speak for more attention. Yes, this sounds whackadoodle, but there was a case a few years ago in which the perp was compelled to register on Websleuths to defend herself and got caught by her IP address?

Also, can anyone explain how EL has Tumblr updates for the past 2 months? I suspect she must have set her queue to post automatically the first of each month, but it is creepy.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

She blogged about going out to some nightclubs/"speakeasy" in California. That was where the whole 'Italian and Mexican' thing came from, because she was getting hit on by guys. Whether or not she went when she was in L.A. I don't remember exactly, because again, I have not gone back and looked at her blog in a couple of months because it takes so long to load and find things (maybe I'm just clueless with Tumblr).

But she definitely would have been in some environments where she likely would have had the opportunity to get drugs, or might have been offered them. Hell, even on the street in downtown L.A. she could have been offered something like ecstasy, but I would think it would more likely have happened in some type of club, if she did ever procure any drugs.

She went to a speakeasy in San Diego. No night clubs. And spoke of no clubs in LA.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I believe if police are trying to cover up their neglect in this case it might have to do with the lack of police intervention at the Cecil.

Remember a few pages back I posted a user who said despite going to the police and complaining his room was ransacked by a security guard for no reason, the police left and allowed the hotel to kick the guest out. With the attitude of "whatever security says goes".

I think police probably have so many random complaints and calls from tourists about the Cecil that they could hardly act on all of the complaints or do not take all of the complaints seriously.

Maybe Elisa had alerted the police or front desk that a Cecil employee or guest was behaving strangely toward her And they did not take a proactive approach in investigating/answering her complaint.

I'm praying that is not lithe reason why the LAPD is being so hush hush.. If indeed they are under review by Interpol for neglecting Elisa's concerns/complaint.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I have left the video behind in this as it feels rather picked over at this point in regard to her recorded movements and gestures. I find other things beyond that kind of interesting that may still be relevant.

Why does she not have a key card to her room? Maybe her shorts had a pocket, but I find it odd that she did not have it in her hand. Safety 101 for women traveling alone is never have to fumble for your keys. I have traveled extensively on my own usually to big cities in the states and Europe; I never left my room to get ice or use washroom; when I arrived back at my hotel or my apt without my key ready before I entered a building.

Why would she go to Santa Cruz in the first place? At first, I thought it silly that this garnered so much attention in the press, but in looking at bus/rail travel it seems much more likely there was planned intent and thought at work. There is no direct route between San Diego or LA and Santa Cruz. The trip involves both bus and train lasting at least 8 hours given time tables. Why wouldn't she just go to San Francisco which is only 1 more hour of travel. This is unusual for a first time to visit to CA, IMO.

I also find it strange that her time in San Diego is not included in this investigation. It is as if she has been invisible this entire trip save for shopping in a book store. People are putting so much emphasis on her bookstore behavior; why then was she not noticed any where else? Just seems odd to me that her San Diego trip is not essential given that LE seems to have little else to go on?

Why would the LAPD reveal to the press that they had evidence that EL was in danger or may have been harmed at the time she was officially missing on February 6th (via CBC correspondent-video no longer accessible)? If they meant self harm due to mental state or prescription drugs, wouldn't it be professionally negligent to under play her mental health. No diagnosis needed to be revealed. Simply, adding on that she is vulnerable due to a medical or mental health condition would have sufficed.

Just further conjecture that leads nowhere given circumstances...sigh. Just thought some of you may have some insights on this stuff or maybe I have just over-emphasized given what little info we have.

She could have had her key are in the front pocket of her hoodie.

Is the elevator the type that you have to have a key card to use ?

Also just thought I'd share with you as we have similar theories - common reasons why doors do not close in elevators (beyond security stopping the elevator manually from security room which is possible).

Elevator continues to open and close the doors but will not leave the floor to answer a call.
Elevator will not close doors at all.
Elevator begins to close door but will not close completely.
Elevator doors appear to be closed but the elevator will not move.
Some safe and easy solutions for these problems are given below.

Check for trash or debris at the bottom of the door in the door sill. The door sill guides the bottom of the door to keep it from being pushed into the elevator shaft. These guides fit inside a groove in the sill. The clearance in these grooves is nominal and it takes very little to jam the door so that it will not close properly. I have found everything from pocket change, bottle caps, paper, or even very small screws wedged in the door sill. If the elevator doors do not close completely the elevator will not run.
Check the door reopening device. All elevators have devices that detect if an object is in the door to keep the door from closing on a passenger. Some of these are mechanical, some are electronic with infrared beams, and some have a combination of both. The mechanical door detectors can get stuck in the retracted position causing the elevator to believe that someone or something is obstructing the door. The infrared detector lenses will many times get dirty not allowing the receiving unit see the infrared beam. Be sure the detector lenses are clean and free of dirt. Both of these will cause the doors not to close or sound an alarm and close at a reduced speed, depending on the code restrictions in your area.
Check for stuck push buttons. Many times the elevator doors are not the problem at all. If a push button on the car or in the hall is stuck, the elevator will remain on that floor with the doors open. For example, if the door open button is stuck, the elevator will hold the doors open. If the 2nd floor button is stuck, the elevator will go to the 2nd floor and remain there with the door open. Many times you will be able to get the button unstuck by simply pushing it a few times. This is only a temporary fix. If this occurs, the button usually needs replacing and a technician should be called.


http://www.fcelevatorservice.com/building-managers/elevator-shutdowns/

I also know that with some older elevators, if you press multiple floors, the elevator will wait for the elevator to reach a greater capacity than one occupant to carry on. I doubt this is the case with EL however.

 

[chellebelle71]

Short and sweet response (Lord knows I could drag it out!)


-The elevators do not require a key card. I walked right in off the street.

-I'm pretty sure she inadvertently pressed the "hold" button, causing the doors to remain open.

 

[findinganatta]

Maybe the perp gets off on media attention? That is not uncommon. This too could play into the lack of coverage on the case. Maybe LE is using social media to their advantage thinking that if they go silent enough the perp will go "public''so to speak for more attention. Yes, this sounds whackadoodle, but there was a case a few years ago in which the perp was compelled to register on Websleuths to defend herself and got caught by her IP address?

Also, can anyone explain how EL has Tumblr updates for the past 2 months? I suspect she must have set her queue to post automatically the first of each month, but it is creepy.

If a perp did get off on that, then we would be talking about a full-on malignant psychopath. Which is certainly possible, but in that case it would be extremely likely that this person or people has committed and/or will commit other murders without law enforcement intervention--an unsettling possibility to say the least. The main factor that gives me doubt about that is just the rare nature of such individuals, even among the psychopath/sociopath population. Then again, this is a rare way to die... it's not a whackadoodle idea.

Any chance you or anyone else could link to the Web Sleuth situation involving this perp who signed in? I've wondered if such a thing had ever happened.

She went to a speakeasy in San Diego. No night clubs. And spoke of no clubs in LA.

Thanks. I thought modern 'speakeasies' were basically nightclubs, no? I'm out of that world now Either way, I'm assuming she would have been vulnerable in a particularly sexualized, 'predatory' environment with potentially bad people. Who knows if that is relevant at all, but it would probably be the most likely place she find acquaintances. And there has been some argument about whether she actually got to LA on the 29th or a day or two before, but I never established their validity.

Snipped for space.

Maybe Elisa had alerted the police or front desk that a Cecil employee or guest was behaving strangely toward her And they did not take a proactive approach in investigating/answering her complaint.

I'm praying that is not lithe reason why the LAPD is being so hush hush.. If indeed they are under review by Interpol for neglecting Elisa's concerns/complaint.

This makes theoretical sense to me, although I wouldn't think their liability would be too high in a city with ton of crime and 911 calls. My neighbors have been in violent, meth-fueled fights, and the police took 90 minutes to show up. I would think it's pretty commonplace in big cities for people to have very bad things (up to and including murder) happen while police were busy with other things, if for no other reason than having to prioritize the urgency of calls and can't predict which will result in truly bad outcomes.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

If a perp did get off on that, then we would be talking about a full-on malignant psychopath. Which is certainly possible, but in that case it would be extremely likely that this person or people has committed and/or will commit other murders without law enforcement intervention--an unsettling possibility to say the least. The main factor that gives me doubt about that is just the rare nature of such individuals, even among the psychopath/sociopath population. Then again, this is a rare way to die... it's not a whackadoodle idea.

Any chance you or anyone else could link to the Web Sleuth situation involving this perp who signed in? I've wondered if such a thing had ever happened.

Thanks. I thought modern 'speakeasies' were basically nightclubs, no? I'm out of that world now Either way, I'm assuming she would have been vulnerable in a particularly sexualized, 'predatory' environment with potentially bad people. Who knows if that is relevant at all, but it would probably be the most likely place she find acquaintances. And there has been some argument about whether she actually got to LA on the 29th or a day or two before, but I never established their validity.

This makes theoretical sense to me, although I wouldn't think their liability would be too high in a city with ton of crime and 911 calls. My neighbors have been in violent, meth-fueled fights, and the police took 90 minutes to show up. I would think it's pretty commonplace in big cities for people to have very bad things (up to and including murder) happen while police were busy with other things, if for no other reason than having to prioritize the urgency of calls and can't predict which will result in truly bad outcomes.

yes that environment at the speakeasy could have been not so savory. It was across the way from a UNI campus and near her hostel she was at in SD.

Do you find it at all disturbing that she lost her cellphone the night she went to the speakeasy? This fact has frightened me from the get go. Not having a phone would leave her increasingly more vulnerable bc:

A) she could not call for help or have a cell device that could ping her location for investigators

B) if someone stole her phone, they could possibly get access to her trip itenerary, lodging plans, flight plans, and maybe even her social accounts



Also,
It may seem common place for the LAPD to neglect a call for help from a young female foreign tourist, but to interpol and Canadian enforcement I could not imagine they view it the same way.

 

[Conductor71]

Do you find it at all disturbing that she lost her cellphone the night she went to the speakeasy? This fact has frightened me from the get go. Not having a phone would leave her increasingly more vulnerable bc:

A) she could not call for help or have a cell device that could ping her location for investigators

B) if someone stole her phone, they could possibly get access to her trip itenerary, lodging plans, flight plans, and maybe even her social accounts

I am thinking she had some sort of replacement phone. I think the phone is important to the investigation as LAPD fielded a question about EL's cell, the sergeant stated "I do not want to talk much about the cell phone right now" which means it most likely integral to the investigation.


Regarding the itinerary on her phone, EL's itinerary and flight info was easily figured out by her Tumblr too, and she could have been targeted before she even arrived in California.

Just entirely too many possibilities!

 

[Conductor71]

Any chance you or anyone else could link to the Web Sleuth situation involving this perp who signed in? I've wondered if such a thing had ever happened.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-92288.html

I think these are highlight. The financial manager Dee Dee Moore was involved in the murder and she used her own name it looks like DMoore. There is the full version you can link to on the same site.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-92288.html

I think these are highlight. The financial manager Dee Dee Moore was involved in the murder and she used her own name it looks like DMoore. There is the full version you can link to on the same site.

I don't see a motiv for deedee IMHO. Yes she's money hungry and evil, but I don't think Elisa had anything to offer her. I don't see money being a motiv at all with Elisa bc I don't remember hearing that her wallet/money was stolen from her room. I also think if she would have been forced to go to he ATM LAPD would have video of her withdrawing money.

I think we should all think of this first order of business and theorize on it (supposing foul play is involved):

What could a potential motiv in this crime be?

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I would question that post (as I would for any online posting by a random person who might hold a grudge or just be messing around), but the fact that the management replied certainly seems to lend some degree of credence to it!

My only issue with any theories like are: a) it doesn't seem like she's talking to anyone, and b) there is too bizarre of a pattern of behavior--first she seems paranoid, but then when she's in the hallway she seems like she's doing things that no paranoid person would do. There is a major disconnect between the two mentalities, from my perspective.

That's why I have always related her behavior directly with either psychedelic/drug behavior or natural psychosis. Because that disorganized pattern of behavior fits those mentalities. I've seen plenty of other pieces of real-life video that lacked audio, and it doesn't normally mess with the context to the point that explainable behavior becomes completely bizarre. She literally switches from one whole vibe to another (on a dime) multiple times throughout the video, in body language and even subtle emotional cues. She also engages in some highly unusual body movements and behaviors. The only time I've personally experienced anything that would make me act that way was after taking drugs with psychedelic properties (I know heavy use of speed/coke can cause somewhat similar behavior, but I think it's reasonable to assume was not the case for EL!).

It's very hard to tell if I'm accurately reading into it, but obviously many people came to that conclusion early on, to the point that they had the ecstasy 'expert' lady analyze the video. Ecstasy is the first drug I thought of, completely independently of any news reports or analysis. It would make sense given that she had been out to some clubs. She might not have been the drug-using type, but a lot of people spontaneously try these things a few times in their lives.

That's just my interpretation, though... it's what I see every time I watch that video.

Or maybe she got the X from someone she trusted,

My fear has been if she willingly took the ecstasy in the comfort of a hotel room with another man,

usually people take X in private with sexual partners to have more intense sex. I also worried about this bc a mark of bipolar is being very sexual.