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Edit: forgot to quote - this is to LuckyLucy 2:

So are you saying that you believe that Max was smothered?


Nope, I'm saying the doctor that treated Max did think that was a possibility. He certainly thought that Max's injuries were not consistat with Rebecca and XZ's stories. Enough to ask Child Protective Services to investigate Rebbeca Zahau and the story she gave.
 
As I've pointed out in the past, a referral for child protective services is STANDARD in every case where a child is seriously injured, as well as serious and unwitnessed injuries.

Much innuendo about Rebecca and incorrect conclusions have been made of that social services referral by certain posters, as if it means something more that it did-- it is STANDARD. It indicates that Max was very seriously injured. Nothing more. It does not mean a crime occurred, or that someone hurt Max. That same referral would have occurred if Max had been injured in someone else's home, or his other home with Dina.

It's beyond ridiculous, IMO, what has been implied of that referral by some commenters. Just another example of the "piling on" on Rebecca, that occurs to this day. SMH.
 
As I've pointed out in the past, a referral for child protective services is STANDARD in every case where a child is seriously injured, as well as serious and unwitnessed injuries.

Much innuendo about Rebecca and incorrect conclusions have been made of that social services referral by certain posters, as if it means something more that it did-- it is STANDARD. It indicates that Max was very seriously injured. Nothing more. It does not mean a crime occurred, or that someone hurt Max. That same referral would have occurred if Max had been injured in someone else's home, or his other home with Dina.

It's beyond ridiculous, IMO, what has been implied of that referral by some commenters. Just another example of the "piling on" on Rebecca, that occurs to this day. SMH.

BBM. Good point K_Z. There seems to be no limit how many times Rebecca can be killed over and over again by reputation. There's an awful lot of very personal revenge seething nonstop.
 
Again, no I don't believe "he sent them over to kill her" to quote you. I do believe that he let nature take its course sadly. Once it was found that Dr. Peterson mis-spoke, I am sure that he had sadness knowing Rebecca was murdered for no reason.

So you believe JS, upon hearing one doctor voice suspicions about suffocation, sent (let borrow car, not discourage, condoned, consigned etc.) "nature taking its course" on Rebecca? But not by his own hand but inside his own house. Do you think he wanted Adam to help with that too?

I am not trying to pick on you, but rather test the specifics of your theory. It's the only way I can work it out in my mind how someone comes up with their opinion.
 
So you believe JS, upon hearing one doctor voice suspicions about suffocation, sent (let borrow car, not discourage, condoned, consigned etc.) "nature taking its course" on Rebecca? But not by his own hand but inside his own house. Do you think he wanted Adam to help with that too?

I am not trying to pick on you, but rather test the specifics of your theory. It's the only way I can work it out in my mind how someone comes up with their opinion.

Even though I have distinct feelings and theories, I am careful in expressing them because I understand the litigious nature of some of the involved individuals. And, frankly, this isn't my fight. I am simply a person who cannot get past what I believe is a great injustice in the findings of SDSO. I am happy to know that the truth will hopefully come out and that truth may go either way if in fact all evidence is clearly produced (though much was not collected at all). What I don't understand is - were I the one suspected of murdering someone or being involved in some way -- I would surely produce the evidence of my innocence for the world to see. And that hasn't happened so it makes me all the more suspicious of those involved individuals. Sorry, not trying to be evasive - just honest.
 
I do not think Adam will. Even if it takes hypnotism/brain washing to have Adam recall something other than the truth, his brother will go to all lengths to squash Rebecca's murder. And I mean ALL LENGTHS.

While I appreciate your perspective about Jonah's protectiveness of his economic interests and of his brother Adam, given Adam's tendency to misspeak and voice things that sound naive and unintentionally frank and blunt, e.g., he blurted out "I didn't think my bedside manner was that bad" when police asked him what happened to Rebecca during their investigation of her "violent, suspicious death" and even revealed he was watching *advertiser censored* on his iPhone during polygraph, I believe, if the Zahau lawyer can get Adam on the stand and Adam's lawyer does not stand up with constant "objections", Adam will surely spontaneously blurt out something unconsciously. He just appears to be that type of uncouth individual with poor social/personal filters. I think he will also be hard to coach to say the *appropriate* things in court.

Of course, I hope all the three defendants (Dina, Nina and Adam) are forced to take the stand. I would love to sit in the court and watch all this unfold. I want to see justice and the truth come out for Rebecca because I believe she was unjustly murdered and the arrogant, disgusting murderers are still allowed to roam free to destroy/murder other people which is an outrage and bombastic miscarriage of justice.
 
I might could see why he'd try to protect his brother from something like the death penalty. But if his brother murdered the woman he loved, I would think JS might be pretty darn mad. Make that double mad if he thinks it was his ex wife and ex sister in law!

I'm certain he was majorly p.o. at Dina and Nina, and Adam. However, he is first and foremost, a very smart businessman who cares a lot about his money, reputation, and power and I believe Dina has something financially catastrophic holding over him to prevent him from exacting revenge on her and disclosing the truth to the authorities about what he knows about Rebecca's murder.
 
Even though I have distinct feelings and theories, I am careful in expressing them because I understand the litigious nature of some of the involved individuals. And, frankly, this isn't my fight. I am simply a person who cannot get past what I believe is a great injustice in the findings of SDSO. I am happy to know that the truth will hopefully come out and that truth may go either way if in fact all evidence is clearly produced (though much was not collected at all). What I don't understand is - were I the one suspected of murdering someone or being involved in some way -- I would surely produce the evidence of my innocence for the world to see. And that hasn't happened so it makes me all the more suspicious of those involved individuals. Sorry, not trying to be evasive - just honest.

What I'm interested in is that nobody is afraid of "litigious parties" when they are accusing very specific people of a gruesome murder. But when challenged on the accusation, it becomes the reason nobody can back it up. Why accuse if you can't give your reasons or argue your case? The dialogue becomes muddied with suspicions, platitudes, and general calls for "justice"
 
What I'm interested in is that nobody is afraid of "litigious parties" when they are accusing very specific people of a gruesome murder. But when challenged on the accusation, it becomes the reason nobody can back it up. Why accuse if you can't give your reasons or argue your case? The dialogue becomes muddied with suspicions, platitudes, and general calls for "justice"

BBM. I have participated in this and other forums since shortly after the fateful day that Rebecca was found. There are almost 150 threads focused specifically on Rebecca on Websleuths alone. My case is argued by those 150 threads that are almost entirely professing that she was murdered. I'm not going to spend the time rehashing all of the facts that have been rehashed over and over again for the suiciders. No thanks. I'm also not naive so I protect myself. These are scary people and I'm not stupid to take the bait.
 
I'm certain he was majorly p.o. at Dina and Nina, and Adam. However, he is first and foremost, a very smart businessman who cares a lot about his money, reputation, and power and I believe Dina has something financially catastrophic holding over him to prevent him from exacting revenge on her and disclosing the truth to the authorities about what he knows about Rebecca's murder.

Actually, I think Dina has been majorly frustrated, and gagged by the terms, IMO, of her confidential divorce agreement with Jonah. I think she has been walking a tightrope for 3+ years, not able to say anything at all about him in public, lest she risk losing a lot of $$. JMO.
 
I didn't want you to state the facts of the whole case. I was merely trying to get clarity regarding your opinion on Jonah's mindset or motive. But, since there are scary people baiting, I guess I seek clarity in vain.
 
Actually, I think Dina has been majorly frustrated, and gagged by the terms, IMO, of her confidential divorce agreement with Jonah. I think she has been walking a tightrope for 3+ years, not able to say anything at all about him in public, lest she risk losing a lot of $$. JMO.

Well, the question another poster posed was why Jonah is allying himself with Adam and the twins. That was my response to them.

Whether or not Dina was frustrated or what not by divorce decree, I don't know but that's interesting you mention it. Perhaps her anger and jealousy towards Rebecca was a built-up from her anger and frustration towards Jonah and the decree. All in all, I believe Dina to be a scary, violent, crazy, narcissistic murderer with a lot of pent-up rage. I think it's just a matter of time when she physically strikes out at another unsuspecting victim.
 
I personally don't believe Jonah allowed Nina to use his car so she could help Dina confront Rebecca. I have always believed Dina disappeared from the hospital leaving her phone behind. Not for the purpose of an alibi. I think she simply forgot it or maybe didn't want to be bothered or stopped by anyone. As well it has been my opinion that Nina and Jonah did not know Dina had left the hospital. It is my opinion Dina left in a rage and didn't want anyone to stop her. It is also my opinion once they realized Dina was gone (her car and not answering her phone) they both became worried. At this time it is my opinion Jonah lent Nina his car to check on Dina and Rebecca. It is my belief Nina went to the mansion because she could not find her sister. The rest....well we all have our opinions.

Imo, Jonah knows what happened, but not until it was all over. I don't believe Jonah participated in the events that unfolded at the mansion. I personally believe Jonah has helped coverup the truth, simply for self preservation. I can't reconcile Nina using Jonah's car if Dina's car was at the hospital. I also cannot find any other reason except Dina was not at the hospital for her to be able to avoid hospital surveillance. Most recently the revelation the clothing Rebecca wore that evening has never been found is a huge red flag. Imo, there is only ONE logical reason for Rebecca's clothes to be missing.

As well, I cannot understand how anyone can question the ME's findings regarding Maxie's death yet not question the ME's findings in Rebecca's death. In my eyes it is so evident neither received a proper investigation but for some reason it has to be one or the other. SMH

*****All of the above is my opinion and mere speculation*****
 
I personally don't believe Jonah allowed Nina to use his car so she could help Dina confront Rebecca. I have always believed Dina disappeared from the hospital leaving her phone behind. Not for the purpose of an alibi. I think she simply forgot it or maybe didn't want to be bothered or stopped by anyone. As well it has been my opinion that Nina and Jonah did not know Dina had left the hospital. It is my opinion Dina left in a rage and didn't want anyone to stop her. It is also my opinion once they realized Dina was gone (her car and not answering her phone) they both became worried. At this time it is my opinion Jonah lent Nina his car to check on Dina and Rebecca. It is my belief Nina went to the mansion because she could not find her sister. The rest....well we all have our opinions.

Imo, Jonah knows what happened, but not until it was all over. I don't believe Jonah participated in the events that unfolded at the mansion. I personally believe Jonah has helped coverup the truth, simply for self preservation. I can't reconcile Nina using Jonah's car if Dina's car was at the hospital. I also cannot find any other reason except Dina was not at the hospital for her to be able to avoid hospital surveillance. Most recently the revelation the clothing Rebecca wore that evening has never been found is a huge red flag. Imo, there is only ONE logical reason for Rebecca's clothes to be missing.

As well, I cannot understand how anyone can question the ME's findings regarding Maxie's death yet not question the ME's findings in Rebecca's death. In my eyes it is so evident neither received a proper investigation but for some reason it has to be one or the other. SMH

*****All of the above is my opinion and mere speculation*****

Excellent, logical and plausible post! On the subject of Max's death investigation, do you believe that it will open up further to the facts based on this civil suit if only through reference? I have always believed that both investigations were strong-armed by Gore and that all the puzzle pieces come together only through both events.
 
snipped

... Child Protective Services to investigate Rebbeca Zahau and the story she gave.

Just to be clear, CPS was not 'investigating' Rebecca nor her minor sister. CPS was in the very initial stages of a report concerning Maxie. Routine when a child presents with injuries to any mandated reporter.
 
I personally don't believe Jonah allowed Nina to use his car so she could help Dina confront Rebecca. I have always believed Dina disappeared from the hospital leaving her phone behind. Not for the purpose of an alibi. I think she simply forgot it or maybe didn't want to be bothered or stopped by anyone. As well it has been my opinion that Nina and Jonah did not know Dina had left the hospital. It is my opinion Dina left in a rage and didn't want anyone to stop her. It is also my opinion once they realized Dina was gone (her car and not answering her phone) they both became worried. At this time it is my opinion Jonah lent Nina his car to check on Dina and Rebecca. It is my belief Nina went to the mansion because she could not find her sister. The rest....well we all have our opinions.

Imo, Jonah knows what happened, but not until it was all over. I don't believe Jonah participated in the events that unfolded at the mansion. I personally believe Jonah has helped coverup the truth, simply for self preservation. I can't reconcile Nina using Jonah's car if Dina's car was at the hospital. I also cannot find any other reason except Dina was not at the hospital for her to be able to avoid hospital surveillance. Most recently the revelation the clothing Rebecca wore that evening has never been found is a huge red flag. Imo, there is only ONE logical reason for Rebecca's clothes to be missing.

As well, I cannot understand how anyone can question the ME's findings regarding Maxie's death yet not question the ME's findings in Rebecca's death. In my eyes it is so evident neither received a proper investigation but for some reason it has to be one or the other. SMH

*****All of the above is my opinion and mere speculation*****

BBM1 & 2: This is also what I have thought from the time this info about the car came out. IIRC, it was Nina's wristlet/yoga pants interview that revealed this. It all fits together perfectly. Lash thank you for spelling it out.

BBM3: To me this is also consistent with the belief that police correctly ruled Rebecca's death a suicide, and incorrectly ruled Max's death an accident. (Some believe it was an accident that was covered up, some believe Max was murdered.)

From the Wrongful Death thread:
I must agree with the idea that humiliation was a factor in the presentation of the crime.

Compounded, of course, by the lack of respect her body got from LE, which is also truly shameful.

I can't recall who said it earlier, and can't be bothered looking for it, but someone was talking about "a murder made to look like suicide made to look like a murder"...

I don't think that's what it was, at all. What I think *might* have happened - and I admit this is, at this time, pure speculation - is that the murder was just a murder, committed with a care to not leaving behind evidence, and the suicide finding (which I think is heavily flawed, see my previous posts re cricoid fracture and other anomalous evidence) was an added bonus.

IOW, I don't think it was made to look like a suicide at all, I think it LOOKS like a murder because it *was* one, and Rebecca may have been (to apply the context of this lawsuit) forced to handle the implements of her own death and humiliation for the sole purpose of making her "pay". If any other clean-up was done to remove evidence, I believe it would have been in the hours after the murder as an afterthought.

I think this fits with the crime scene, which does not resemble a suicide at all, IMO.

BBM: I have thought this all along, Ausgirl. Thank you for putting it into words.
 
Snipped.

Remember, that at this point in time, Dr. Peterson had stated – in error – that Max perhaps had been smothered. Of course that wasn’t true ultimately and was disproved at his autopsy. But at this point, for all JS knew, Rebecca had hurt Max and emotions were running rampant. So rampant, of course, that a brutal murder then took place. Followed by disrespect of her body, political persuasion to quickly close the case, and a sheriff that only pursued the evidence that supported the suicide finding.

It would be interesting to see if Dr. Peterson will be deposed and the timeline ramifications of his statement. I want to be clear that the good doctor meant no harm I am sure and probably has felt remorse for his words. IMO, those words became a death sentence for Rebecca.

I'm inclined to give Dr. Peterson the benefit of the doubt as to what exactly he said. It's very hard for me to believe a professional with his reputation, at his level as PICU chief, would say something so irresponsible as what Dina has reported he said. He is an excellent and highly respected physician, by reputation and comments. And given that Dina, IMO, often exaggerates and uses hyperbole (remember the "I am a scientist" comment she made to the Coronado city council? Just one example.), my opinion is that she has twisted his explanation to make it what she wanted it to be, so she could be even more justified in her tirade of hate and revenge toward Rebecca.

I'm even more inclined to believe this, because Dina herself did not utilize Dr. Peterson in her campaign to re-open Max's accident investigation. Either he refused to help her, or she didn't even ask him, knowing that he would refuse, since she had so very publicly misrepresented what he explained to her.

It's the same thing with her "they told me Max had a heart attack" comments in the Phoenix magazine interview. That's is just beyond ridiculous, IMO, that anyone with her level of education and ability to understand medical information would describe Max's 30 min aystolic blunt head trauma cardiac arrest as a "heart attack" that preceded his fall. There is 100% no way possible that any doctors gave her anything like that kind of explanation. It's completely absurd, given the presentation-- and any health care professional would say the same.

It's my opinion that Dr. Peterson and others explained to Dina over and over what the effects of blunt head trauma with 30 min of cardiac arrest were, as to Max's possibility of survival. I think there were brain death discussions within hours of Max's admission, and I think it's highly likely that this is why Jonah's friend Dr. Luber dropped everything and flew to be at Jonah's side, to support him and help interpret the medical information they were receiving.

Dr. Peterson may have used the word "suffocation" as an example, or to explain the effects of hypoxic cerebral edema. But it's extremely difficult for me to believe he told Dina he thought Max was suffocated and tossed over the railing to make it look like a fall. I think Dina heard what she wanted to hear, to justify her previous feelings about Rebecca being at all involved in the life of her son. It was no secret that Dina had a vendetta against her before this ever happened. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

I think it's highly possible Dr. Peterson will be deposed, with regard to establishing Dina's motive to hurt Rebecca, as well as what Dina said and how she behaved in his presence. Because Dina herself has publicly identified him as the person that gave her the "idea" that Rebecca hurt Max. I think it's very important to find out what Dr. Peterson has to say.
 
Excellent, logical and plausible post! On the subject of Max's death investigation, do you believe that it will open up further to the facts based on this civil suit if only through reference? I have always believed that both investigations were strong-armed by Gore and that all the puzzle pieces come together only through both events.

I personally believe Maxie's death was an accident even though I do not agree with the theory presented at the 9/2 presser. Maxie's death was not properly investigated. It is evident in the impossible theory presented by LE. These were high profiles deaths and their investigations were led by a high profile sheriff with a complicated history. Imo someone wanted both cases closed quickly. As well, I agree with your theory of confirmation bias. I do not believe this means Maxie's death was a homicide. Using my own critical thinking skills, I do not believe Rebecca or XZ intentionally or accidentally hurt Maxie.

Since I believe Maxie's death was the catalyst to Rebecca's death, I absolutely believe the details of his death will play a major role in the civil suit. Sadly, Maxie's hospital records include more than just the care he received at Rady. The records will likely prove or disprove alibis. As well, since there are discrepancies in when the defendants knew Maxie's injuries were fatal, his records will most likely prove when all the parties knew Maxie would not survive. I believe hospital notes will include the defendants actions and whereabouts. Then there is Dr. Peterson. When and what he said to the defendants is of the upmost importance. I believe Dr. Peterson and Maxie's hospital records will be used for the purpose of discrediting the defendants statements. If the plaintiffs are able to use this evidence to discredit statements about crucial pieces of the timeline, the defendants will have to answer. Imo, if any of the defendants gave false statements, a jury will definitely want to know why. The defendants answers will be listened to very carefully. Imo, this portion of the civil suit, all by itself, would open a window for a jury to reasonably consider Rebecca was murdered.

****all the above is my opinion and mere speculation****
 
I completely agree with Lash and Kittychi that the only explanation that makes sense as to why Jonah lent Nina his car is that she (Nina) needed to urgently go find Dina. It also explains why Jonah is seen on Rady security cameras, but Dina was not, and investigators had to resort to triangulating her cell phone to try to establish her location. I think it's possible Nina and Jonah both thought Dina had gone to angrily confront Rebecca, and they were both concerned about how that might go. But it seems clear Nina didn't drive to Jonah's house, or leave the car there.

Especially with the later explanation in Dina's interview that she asked Nina to go talk to Rebecca, "beg her on hands and knees if you have to", etc. More hyperbole. But in this case, hyperbole justifying the pink Coach wristlet and new yoga pants visit, IMO. Remember, Nina had texted Rebecca and she didn't answer. And Jonah would have been easily able to truthfully corroborate Nina's planned visit to Spreckles-- all he'd have to say is he loaned Nina his car to check on Rebecca and Adam at home. Maybe Jonah tried to call Adam, and he didn't answer. And Adam has said he took an Ambien and was asleep. Jonah apparently tried to call Rebecca, and she didn't answer-- that critically important voicemail that was "lost".

If Max was more unstable during that evening, it would also explain why Jonah left the VM for Rebecca, and potentially why Nina borrowed Jonah's car, if Dina couldn't be reached-- maybe it looked like Max was not going to make it thru the night, and Jonah thought Dina should be there. Maybe Jonah and Dina didn't agree at that point what Max's code status should be, and Jonah thought they should both be available. Again, Jonah might have been answering truthfully when he said what the content of his VM to Rebecca was-- that Max took a turn for the worse, but that lead investigators to conclude her death was suicide.

I also think it's possible that Dina AND Nina were at the front door of Spreckles, just at different times during the evening. That's why the bicycle family gave such a detailed description of what they saw, right down to the striped shirt. It would be interesting to know what Dina was wearing earlier in the day, and whether she was ever seen in Coronado wearing a striped shirt that matches the bicycle family description. I'm curious about the black bag, too-- was it a handbag, totebag, disposable shopping bag, did it have long or short handles, etc. Had anyone seen Dina carrying a large black bag before? I think the bicycle family will have to be deposed. Both sides have a serious interest in what they have to say.

Who knows. It's all speculation at this point. Nevertheless, I'm 100% convinced Rebecca did not commit suicide, but was murdered.

I'm equally convinced Max's fall was accidental, perhaps as a result of horseplay, witnessed or unwitnessed by anyone else in the house. I'm on the fence as to whether any of the 3 teens were present or involved. I'm not convinced that the older teens left on the early flight, but I'd be very interested if this could be proven conclusively one way or the other. Because if they didn't leave on the very early flight, that explains a lot of Jonah's behavior after the accident, and in the past 3 years, IMO.
 
Well, the question another poster posed was why Jonah is allying himself with Adam and the twins. That was my response to them.

Whether or not Dina was frustrated or what not by divorce decree, I don't know but that's interesting you mention it. Perhaps her anger and jealousy towards Rebecca was a built-up from her anger and frustration towards Jonah and the decree. All in all, I believe Dina to be a scary, violent, crazy, narcissistic murderer with a lot of pent-up rage. I think it's just a matter of time when she physically strikes out at another unsuspecting victim.

I don't know if Dina was frustrated with the divorce decree BEFORE Max's accident-- if there is a "gag" clause, it hardly mattered before Max's death. If a "gag" clause exists (and IMO, it sure looks that way), Jonah had it put in to protect his business & reputation.

IMO, if the gag exists, Dina could have been frustrated AFTER Max's accident and Rebecca's death, since she wouldn't be able to say anything at all about Jonah publicly-- only about Rebecca and her minor sister. She could neither praise nor criticize Jonah. The only time they have appeared united in public is in the ONE written statement they reportedly released together announcing and mourning Max's death. They didn't even endorse or support each other's memorial organizations for Max-- that's how far apart they are, IMO.

I think it's virtually certain Dina is under a gag clause WRT the terms of their divorce, as well as being enjoined from saying anything at all publicly about Jonah. I think it's entirely possible she forfeits her awards (life estate, $$, etc) if she breaks the gag clause. That is the only thing that I think would persuade Dina to be so silent about Jonah Shacknai. She appears to have no other identifiable source of income or career, so preserving what she has from the divorce would be pretty important, IMO.
 

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