Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[vlpate]

Sure..Blood loss or drainage can for laypeople seem like a TON of blood..BUT when a patient loses enough blood to cause Cardiac arrest does NOT compare to that at all..And I have actally watched bleed outs..feeling helpless..its like trying to stop a flood water entering your house..or boat..It's just something that most dont understand..Boat water..House leaks..Bleeding noses....THIS experience IF ever watched by laypeople would be totally flabberghasted....

Blood volume - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humans[edit]A typical adult has a blood volume of approximately between 4.7 and 5 litres, with females generally having less blood volume than males.[1] Blood volume is regulated by the kidneys.

Blood volume (BV) can be calculated given the hematocrit (HC; the fraction of blood that is red blood cells) and plasma volume (PV):




The body has basically only 4- 5 liters..which basically varies just over I gallon in Jahi case> a 13 year wasnt a BIG HUlk of a person..( actual calulations varies but about BUT cause and affect led to Cardiac arrest.....Think about your purhase of 1 gallon of gas..and visualize that amout circulating in your body that keeps you alive...:blushing:

IF someone starts to bleed out..It doesnt take long to directly affect brain or vital organs....Thus jahi went into cardiac arrest..Lack of blood flows..lack of Oxygen...Doesnt take a PHD to realize any human body will be in DIRE circumstances..This child was in an ICU..Where was the nurses?? ICU means Intensive CARE..monitors..One on one Medical personel THERE....I am just not Buying whats been suggested by those that wish to excuse CHO for how they cared for jahi...Sorry..Too many years of experience tells me different!!

:facepalm:

I was just making the point (which I neglected to state), that it is more common than I knew. I was with a three year old about a year ago who underwent the same procedure and there were no complications at all.

The way the mother described Jahi's bleeding it was not unlike most of the commenters on the link....and they all lived to make those comments.

I guess the nurses weren't as alarmed as the mother because they'd seen bleeding before after the procedure. It's not clear how much or how long she was bleeding b/c the stories vary. Since the hospital hasn't made a clear statement on the ICU incident (if at all?), then we don't know what the actual complications were that led to her cardiac arrest.

Please, correct me if I am wrong on hospital input.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I going to steer clear of the medical stuff.
I just find it beyond concerning a child in ICU can bleed to death. IMO that just shouldn't happen after this surgery, in an ICU.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SugarQueen]

Wait, so are we supposed to believe that EVERY nurse working in CHO's ICU at the time just ignored their patients?? The very same people who have devoted themselves to the care of sick, injured, critical children? AND the Drs, nurses, and administrators of the same hospital conspired to CYA??
Wow......

 

[LyndyLoo]

Her brain is dead...the brain stem is dead. Nothing is going in or coming out. Take the breakers out of your house, throw them away and try to turn on a light. That's her brain...gone and not coming back...only new breakers (brain) or a generator (life support), will make the light come on again.

If thats truly how you feel..Then as a human being how does anyone assimilate treating a brain dead child like a DEAD animal..Surely humans treat other humans better..with respect and dignity..treating family with respect and dignity..allowing grievings and ability to deal with all that...BUT obviously since Brain death was declared back Dec 12th.....how come it wasnt until Dec. 23rd did the family finally reachoutside of that facility? Could it be they felt lied to..COuld it be they felt they were responsable..COuld it be they felt disenfranchised??/ Then after almost 2 weeks..reach out..and WAM BAM..For some folks They are on some sort of "Cashing in of their daughters situations" I find it a rather awkward ..This is not the first Child death post surgery...Medical malparactice often gets hidden..and further..What the family said couldnt have been contrived..as HOW would they know what to say..They are uneducated in such stuff....BUT certain descriptions raised a whole lot of flags for me....

Im of the thought..Give Jahi Dignity..and her Family the same...Jahi went in there for Surgery..and within a day SHE's Brain Dead....Parents at fault??? Does anyone blame the parents for Jahi's circumstances Dec 10th onward???

I guess..AS a HC giver and understand death and dyings ( ALL kinds) and I am NOT just buying CHO's suggestions/deflections..And nowwhere..was any blood flow assessments done on Jahi''s brain ( Carotid/Juglular Veins)..Nadda...:banghead:

 

[inthedark14]

Hi all you wonderful WS'ers. I've been reading along for weeks now. I started reading when I read something in MSM saying that this hospital had told a girl's family that she was "dead, dead, dead". I really wish I would have saved the link. It shocked the **** out of me, being a daughter of a PICU nurse, a woman who cared so much for the poor sick children she worked to save and care for, she sometimes didn't have a lot to bring home to her own kids. (That's ok, I have the best Mom ever and I know the love she gave those kids made a difference). Since then, I've read everything I could find about poor lil Jahi and her family. I couldn't imagine that a Children's hospital would treat a family this way. What I found when I actually searched and read the articles is that there is nothing other than this very hurt family hurling accusations. That the hospital that cared for this poor little girl can't even defend itself, the nurses who spent hours caring for this child cannot speak out, I really wonder what they would have to say.

Then I learned all of the things the very educated posters here have taught me (that I really never wanted to know about brain death). If someone could kindly find the link that shows CHO stating these horrible things to the family, with the hospital doing anything besides going above and beyond to help the grieving and loss process for this family, I would like to see it. Something tangible that proves that this hospital did something to hurt this child. All we have is what a very pained family is saying and I know that no one here discounts their grief and the pain they have, but there is way more to this story that what has been reported.

Finally, I just have to say that every single article that I've read posted anywhere or in the paper locally has had much misinformation, the main point being that this was a simple, routine tonsillectomy.

I hope this darling girl rests in peace and that her family can find closure. Thank you to all of you here that care enough to educate the rest of us who cannot fathom all the creepy medical stuff.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[Linda7NJ]

'Her healing begins today': Family of [JM] say teenager is finally getting
nutrition she needs after being declared brain dead a month ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tion-needs-declared-brain-dead-month-ago.html

You think that's bad?

Look at this one!

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/01/mike-huckabee-brain-dead-girl-could-lead


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LyndyLoo]

Wait, so are we supposed to believe that EVERY nurse working in CHO's ICU at the time just ignored their patients?? The very same people who have devoted themselves to the care of sick, injured, critical children? AND the Drs, nurses, and administrators of the same hospital conspired to CYA??
Wow......

NOPE..Only one HC giver who was responsible for Jahi...I am in no way suggesting the other nurses are at fault...Please do NOT suggest that..This is why Nurses have Liability Insurance (but insurance doesnt cover the damages done when abandoning your assignments ..Which Is A PERSON)...BUT I think this goes much further..BUT time will only tell I guess.

BBM~~ Yepper..i have witnesssed that over my many decades..it's called blame the underling..OR better still deny deny and make them prove it.....Unfortunately..Ive actually reported Physician for neglicgence ..Investigations actually proved it on a wider scale..Guess what....Poof....No HC giver wants to work with another who frames or blames another for their errors or malpractice..Happens...for real

 

[ArianeEmory]

You think that's bad?

Look at this one!

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/01/mike-huckabee-brain-dead-girl-could-lead


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

He seriously brought the nazi references.

Yeah, break time.

 

[scmom]

Willful ignorance is quite irritating and there's a heck of a lot of it going on with Jahi's death.

 

[Penelope]

First laugh of the day! I think you have to have a sense of humor, as our loved ones would probably tell us if they could.

This is one of my problems with Jahi being toted around as if she is going to someday wake up...her dignity is being stolen and there are going to be jokes...not about the funny, sweet, endearing Jahi her family loved, but the dead, rotting, almost faceless Jahi - she deserved better than this.

Dignity for Jahi.

I agree. In my belief system, someone in Jahi's condition would be taken off life support so that her body would die. To keep her body alive when her brain is dead prevents her spirit from travelling to the Spirit World/Heaven. This situation is so very sad and (IMHO) it it made sadder because of the family's inability to let her go.

BTW -- my husband passed away five years ago and I still "feast" him on his birthday and other special days. This means I prepare food for him as an offering to him in the Spirit World, and either leave the food out in the woods/bush or burn it in a sacred fire. This is considered quite respectful. If one of our members wants to prepare soup for her deceased relative, I am all for it! It doesn't matter whether the deceased's ashes have been scattered or not, prepare a feast for her whenever you want to!

 

[Leilei]

Okay, we do not know what happened that day. Very few actual facts have been released, and those were released by her family, who have not given CHO permission to release their side. Until the family allows CHO to talk (not gonna happen, IMO), or the facts come out in court documents somewhere down the road, or they release the findings of the investigation, then it is all speculation here. I've learned a ton from our medical professionals who have posted here, and am very grateful to them for sharing their knowledge.

BUT... saying that the negative experiences that we encountered - as professionals, patients, family, in a different hospital, on a different day, in a different setting - show that CHO dropped the ball on 12/9/13 in Oakland, is blatantly unfair to CHO and their staff. Personal experience is great, and adds to discussion, but unless we were in that room with Jahi, it's wrong IMO to insist that these nurses and doctors didn't do everything they could, or that her care was lacking.

JMO mooooooooooobaaaaaacluckquack

 

[otto]

No one on the family's side is playing games..The only reason her body was in such bad shape is because CHO was only giving her fluid via IV....just think about it..If you only drank sugar water or other fluid lacking Nutirents..how well would any body do?...Any Body requires nutrients..Carbs..Proteins..Lipids etc..Once deprived of that..Lose of weight..SO who treated jahi that way for over 4 weeks??? Yep...Now they have a tube inserted to give her needed nutrients..We will see..Regardless of Electrical activities of brain...Her Body could continue to improve...Much against what CHO attempted to deprive her body to maintain....CHO's behaviors totally disgust me...Long time experience in ER and ICU nursing experience..SO get it..COurse..What do I know??:truce:

Please read this report. It doesn't leave much room for improvement with food.

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

 

[K_Z]

If thats truly how you feel..Then as a human being how does anyone assimilate treating a brain dead child like a DEAD animal..Surely humans treat other humans better..with respect and dignity..treating family with respect and dignity..allowing grievings and ability to deal with all that...BUT obviously since Brain death was declared back Dec 12th.....how come it wasnt until Dec. 23rd did the family finally reachoutside of that facility? Could it be they felt lied to..COuld it be they felt they were responsable..COuld it be they felt disenfranchised??/ Then after almost 2 weeks..reach out..and WAM BAM..For some folks They are on some sort of "Cashing in of their daughters situations" I find it a rather awkward ..This is not the first Child death post surgery...Medical malparactice often gets hidden..and further..What the family said couldnt have been contrived..as HOW would they know what to say..They are uneducated in such stuff....BUT certain descriptions raised a whole lot of flags for me....

Im of the thought..Give Jahi Dignity..and her Family the same...Jahi went in there for Surgery..and within a day SHE's Brain Dead....Parents at fault??? Does anyone blame the parents for Jahi's circumstances Dec 10th onward???

I guess..AS a HC giver and understand death and dyings ( ALL kinds) and I am NOT just buying CHO's suggestions/deflections..And nowwhere..was any blood flow assessments done on Jahi''s brain ( Carotid/Juglular Veins)..Nadda...:banghead:

Respectfully, this is absolutely incorrect. Jahi did have a radionuclide SPECT scan, which showed no flow. Please re-read Dr. Paul Fisher's handwritten report to the court, linked above.

Moderators, could we please have Dr. Fisher's report added to the documents at the beginning of the threads?

 

[Herat]

..And nowwhere..was any blood flow assessments done on Jahi''s brain ( Carotid/Juglular Veins)..Nadda...:banghead:

You are incorrect on that. There were several studies done, all mentioned by Dr. Paul Fisher of Stanford in his report to the court on Dec. 23.

The SPECT Perfusion scan is considered the most definitive way to evaluate for blood flow and this perfusion scan showed no blood flow to the brain.

You seem to indicate there should have been angiograms. Angiograms were not done because they are not sensitive enough and are invasive by themselves. They are also not included as part of the documented medical criteria for brain death.

If the head of Neurology at Stanford, who was chosen by the mother as an independent expert, agrees there is no blood flow to the brain, and she fails all other tests, including the test for apnea, then that is certainly enough for me.

 

[Tawny]

She is not in the shape she is in because of lack of nutrition. She is in the shape she is in because the mainframe computer that her body requires in order to run properly (her brain) has completely shut down. She's running on a back up system, and unnatural one at that, that will never ever be able to replace the original hard drive.

 

[Herat]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

He seriously brought the nazi references.

Yeah, break time.

Wow. That was incredibly stupid and inflammatory.

When someone plays the Nazi card, it's time to stop reporting his ramblings.

 

[Herat]

Thank you to all of you here that care enough to educate the rest of us who cannot fathom all the creepy medical stuff.

ALWAYS MOO

It's not the creepy medical stuff that bothers me.

It's the creepy legal stuff that is allowed to happen.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

He seriously brought the nazi references.

Yeah, break time.

Someone out that has to entertain the paranoid, conspiracy theory types. They need news too! :floorlaugh:

There are those out there whose brains only comprehend anything that is opposite of fact and reality.

Personally, I need facts and as much data to back up those facts. They would probably think I'm the odd one. :blushing:

What's so disturbing is media giving them a platform to speak and the fact that he was in office at one time. Scares the crap out of me!!

 

[LyndyLoo]

I was just making the point (which I neglected to state), that it is more common than I knew. I was with a three year old about a year ago who underwent the same procedure and there were no complications at all.

The way the mother described Jahi's bleeding it was not unlike most of the commenters on the link....and they all lived to make those comments.

I guess the nurses weren't as alarmed as the mother because they'd seen bleeding before after the procedure. It's not clear how much or how long she was bleeding b/c the stories vary. Since the hospital hasn't made a clear statement on the ICU incident (if at all?), then we don't know what the actual complications were that led to her cardiac arrest.

Please, correct me if I am wrong on hospital input.

Of course the hospital hasnt made it clea..claiming HIPPA...So Story's can very..BUT FACTual things..Jahi was sitting up in her bed when family entered..and she suddenly started initially to seep blood from nose and mouth...and whomever handed the K-basin suggested..this is normal..Then within a short period..Bleeds out..Why should this family be required to clean up that blood..Why should this family ever have to do anything?? Who was (medically) actually in attendence??..Did they ever call for Medical emergency help ( nurse attendent)?? When was Code called?? AFter she bleed out??

ICU bedside nursing understand how deteriorations..bleeding outs or crashings of vital signs work..You dont wait for Cardiac arrest before ya call for help..And Im talking way back.....Im truly qustioning this so called ICU care at CHO??? :scared:

 

[otto]

OK...I just followed the suggestion and looked up assessment by CHO for Brain Death..and NOWHERE did I see any circulations of Blood flows to the brain..and It's just as I have read other places..Mis-informations being spread as facts..There is NO way any such testings would be done..AND no her actual brain matter is NOT decomposing..and I just know that..take that for whats its worth..Far too much judgements have been made by certain spinnings..and I know it's not based on FACTs....IF that was so..Jahi would have been heart/cardiovasular DEAD within 48 hours..We are now weeks later...

Here's what's linked about Brain death..Please point out brain circulations to me...Blood Flow Studies werent done...unless someone can point me to that being done after this date???

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195183111/Children-s-Hospital-Okland-Physician-s-Declaration-Dec-20-2013

NOTE#4 on this evaluations..TYIA:facepalm:

The Quality Standards Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology. Practice parameters for determining brain death in adults (summary statement). Neurology 45, 1012–1014 (1995):

http://www.neurology.org/content/45/5/1012.full.pdf

http://www.coma.ulg.ac.be/papers/vs/death_unconsciousness_NatureRevNeurosci05.pdf