Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[Donjeta]

I think she means a brain dead patient on only a vent and nothing else. No supplements etc. jmo

Maybe. But I'm not convinced that it would be accurate even then.
It seems to me that the diagnosis of brain death would be a much simpler affair if she was right. There would be no need for EEG:s, cerebral blood flow scans, apnea tests, repeated brainstem reflex testing etc. Just leave the patient on the ventilator, and if the patient still has a pulse after two days he's not brain dead. Strange that they don't have this rule out in the brain death criteria. If you made a brain death diagnosis and stopped other treatments and informed the family and let them gather around the person and two days go by and the heart still beats, your diagnosis was wrong, you have to start over.

 

[K_Z]

As the case has been going, my bet is another confused reporter, someone who didn't connect the dots how Jahi's hemorrhaging in the throat area could have led to brain death.

Here's another scary article: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/9/orient-a-return-to-back-alley-medicine/?page=1



The author is basically saying that if the patient lasts over two days on the ventilator she can't be brain dead. This is scary because it is not true (think about those brain dead women who were pregnant and the fetus was sustained for months until viability) but I can just see it used as evidence that Jahi or some other unfortunate soul is not dead and should be eternally animated by machines. See, he's been hooked up to the ventilator for three days already, he's not brain dead, you can't stop life support.

The scariest thing about it is that the author is described as a doctor.

BBM. The organization the doc represents is not a mainstream professional association. They are an activist group.

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Oh dear. This bothers me on more than one level. Mostly b/c, if God doesn't desire to do the miracle everyone is rooting for, it's going to seem (to these kids at least) that either their God wasn't enough, or their faith and efforts weren't enough. Not only bad theology (IMO), but devastating to young faith.

Let go and let God be God. JMO...

I just reached this quote in my morning reading and it reminds me of my 15th high school reunion.

We were all grouped around our favorite person, the highly intellectual class clown. We were all a bit tipsy, him even more so with his supportive and sober wife at his side.

It came out that he had become a minister and was the director of a faith-based nursing home. Needless to say, we had a ton of jokes about that.

Then, the conversation became serious for a moment when one of my classmates mentioned that God never seemed to answer her prayers.

Without pause, and with great reverence, our Clergyman Classmate-Class Clown made a profound statement that has stayed with me through our 50th reunion.

"God ALWAYS answers our prayers. Sometimes, we don't like the answers."

 

[Sonya610]

link

I like this type of reminder. Much more pleasant than ugly super large red text. Everyone receives the message better when it comes with cute cats.

Not in any way commenting on recent posts just loved that "Stay on Topic" graphic!

 

[Sonya610]

Oh dear. This bothers me on more than one level. Mostly b/c, if God doesn't desire to do the miracle everyone is rooting for, it's going to seem (to these kids at least) that either their God wasn't enough, or their faith and efforts weren't enough. Not only bad theology (IMO), but devastating to young faith.

Let go and let God be God. JMO...

I seriously wouldn't worry about the siblings faith being affected by this situation. If they even understand the concept of God it won't matter, they will be angry with the hospital and such. It won't dawn on them that if God is all powerful then the hospital can't be blamed.

One can only imagine the types of conversations they hear every day.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:



(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

Good catch! Unfortunately, I have become very wary of any statement in MSM. This is the first time we've heard this reported. It could just be another uninformed journalist.

Waiting for the inevitable happens, maybe an autopsy will confirm/deny this.

 

[NevadaMom]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:



(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

Could they possibly have meant swelling and not hemorraging? That's what had been reported, no?

 

[Irisha]

I'm honestly surprised that TMZ hasn't jumped on board with all of this, I'd give them no time at all to track info down if they were. Look at their tactics when pursuing any kind of celebrity news.

Although I skim through TMZ daily, they basically only post about low life/level celeb's., many I've never heard of. Or 1's in trouble with the law. Same with Radaronline, who's sources many times are Star magazine.<eyeroll>. They are not smart enough to gather real news on this case. IMO



RIP Jahi

 

[K_Z]

I'm going with DIC, K_Z, due to the number of transfusions she had post- op. And we absolutely do not know whether or not she received any blood products intra-operatively.

Caveat- if this new info is correct... it certainly fits more in with our questions from the beginning as to how she ended up brain dead from upper airway surgeries and reported post-op hemorrhaging of a very unknown origin, in a specialty care unit!

BBM.

Agreed, SJ, that we do not know what happened in the OR. However, it would be HIGHLY unusual to give blood products intraoperatively for these procedures. That would be another quality assurance issue, and a statistic that the docs and hospital would not be very thrilled with. Intra op transfusions are tracked VERY closely by several committees in every hospital.

I have to believe that when she was extubated and sent to PACU, she had good hemostasis. Otherwise, they never would have extubated. They would have packed and left her sedated on the vent, in case she needed emergent return to OR for more oversewing and cautery.

Another reason I'm reluctant to think that there was an intraop disaster is that we haven't heard a PEEP about that from ANYONE. For all of the criticisms from the family and attorney directed at "the hospital" and Dr. Durand, not a single comment has been made that the surgery didn't go well, or that she had major bleeding intraop. No one has criticized the surgeon. Heck-- we don't even know his name without looking it up.

Everything we have heard supports the progression that she was a planned PICU overnight stay, had her surgery, woke up fine and was extubated before she got to PACU (from what I can glean), and was sitting up breathing fine, oozing a bit (not unexpected), and visiting with family (that were actually allowed to come into PACU!). Then, BEFORE change of shift, she was transferred to PICU, again, in stable condition, breathing on her own, from all reports. AND seen and signed out by SOMEONE in the PACU, anesthesiologist or surgeon.

We have no idea what the real sequence of events was after that. The reports from the Uncle are subject to heavy bias, due to him not being there, and the mother passed out and being transported to another part of the hospital for treatment. NW's husband was reportedly there, but hasn't said a word. The grandmother has a lot of problems with her version of the events.

 

[nrdsb4]

http://www.avemariaradio.net/audio_archive/catholic-connection-january-8-2014-hour-2/

Apparently Dr. Byrne stated that he believes God gives us our own organs, which are not to be shared. It is "mutilation" of the body to take organs from one to give to another, and this includes live donor cases such as a mother giving one of her kidneys to her child. He admits that he counsels his patients against organ donation.

These beliefs are not mainstream Catholic beliefs and it is frustrating to me that his medical credentials could give extra credibility to these outlier beliefs.

 

[Kakidoll]

I've been reading EVERYTHING and found this video that makes a great point, imo. Its not easy to watch but it def. made me 'think' more. Since i think WS is a great learning site and has made open my eyes and change my mind on a few things over the years. Just thought i'd share
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I1RBiDKDbA

edit to add: I'm not in any way saying Jahi is in the same condition but does anyone REALLY know? I started this video thinking i knew how it was going to end... and very surprised at the outcome.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oh dear. This bothers me on more than one level. Mostly b/c, if God doesn't desire to do the miracle everyone is rooting for, it's going to seem (to these kids at least) that either their God wasn't enough, or their faith and efforts weren't enough. Not only bad theology (IMO), but devastating to young faith.

Let go and let God be God. JMO...

Last summer, my youngest sister (57) was in hospice and on the brink of death for nearly two weeks. She was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in June and developed severe pneumonia that is common with the cancer. Her lungs were filled with fluid making it nearly impossible for her to breathe. She was in ICU for several days when it was determined that she was unlikely to survive the pneumonia. After much discussion with medical personnel, my sister was transferred to the hospice wing of the hospital. We absolutely believed that she would not survive, and hospice workers soon began asking about final arrangements.

I don't believe that it was "miraculous" that my sister recovered from the pneumonia and no longer required hospice care. I think the combination of big-gun antibiotics and plenty of rest helped my sister's body heal itself. She still has multiple myeloma and doesn't want continued chemo or additional medical procedures. A DNR is in place. Her prognosis is grim, she has little quality of life, and I pray that my sister and our family will have the strength to endure the days, weeks, months that our sister lingers with the myeloma.

Prayers will not help Jahi, but her family definitely needs courage and strength to accept this tragedy, let go of their brain-dead loved one, and move forward with their lives. :moo:

 

[meme4]

I've been reading EVERYTHING and found this video that makes a great point, imo. Its not easy to watch but it def. made me 'think' more. Since i think WS is a great learning site and has made open my eyes and change my mind on a few things over the years. Just thought i'd share
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I1RBiDKDbA

edit to add: I'm not in any way saying Jahi is in the same condition but does anyone REALLY know? I started this video thinking i knew how it was going to end... and very surprised at the outcome.

Not the same thing, it is my understanding her eyes are closed and she does not respond at all.....My dads eyes were opened, he responded to pain and moved.....He was removed from the respirator and breathed on his own.......He did not respond to command(squeeze my hand, blink your eyes if you understand), he was in a PVS......

 

[K_Z]

I've been reading EVERYTHING and found this video that makes a great point, imo. Its not easy to watch but it def. made me 'think' more. Since i think WS is a great learning site and has made open my eyes and change my mind on a few things over the years. Just thought i'd share
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I1RBiDKDbA

edit to add: I'm not in any way saying Jahi is in the same condition but does anyone REALLY know? I started this video thinking i knew how it was going to end... and very surprised at the outcome.

BBM. Yes. Jahi's doctors know with absolute certainty. Jahi has no brain activity at all, and no blood flow inside her skull. There is no medical possibility that she has any thoughts at all.

Jahi's situation is that she has NO blood flow to her brain. None. Her brain essentially does not exist anymore. The subject in this video on youtube had a very high spinal cord injury, NOT a brain injury. If you look at the scans in the video, he had lots and lots of blood flow to his brain. The doctors were uncertain how much higher processing he had, beyond following yes/ no questions with eye gaze. There was never a question whether or not the patient in the video was brain dead.

It is a fascinating and thought provoking documentary. But his situation is simply not at all comparable to Jahi Mc Math's situation.

 

[Karmady]

He wasn't ,Isabelle speculated that maybe he just misspoke , at least it seems that way from reading the post.

I see KZ noted that the article doesn't attribute the hemorrhage statement to dolan either. That's what I was confused about. I asked because I hadn't seen quotes from him about either hemorrhage or decomposition of the brain as a basis for him potentially being confused about anything. jmo

 

[Sonya610]

Has anyone else noticed there is no discussion about Jahi as an individual?

I mean no discussion about quality of life, what she would want, what is best for HER, what she could experience, etc....

She has become objectified in an EXTREME way! She is either "an innocent 13 year old child that deserves a chance" or she is a "dead body" but beyond that she is nothing in all of this, kwim? She does not exist as a person beyond those two descriptors.

 

[K_Z]

I'm going with DIC, K_Z, due to the number of transfusions she had post- op. And we absolutely do not know whether or not she received any blood products intra-operatively.

Caveat- if this new info is correct... it certainly fits more in with our questions from the beginning as to how she ended up brain dead from upper airway surgeries and reported post-op hemorrhaging of a very unknown origin, in a specialty care unit!

I forgot that I wanted to respond to the bolded area (BBM) regarding the transfusions.

While 4 units of blood might be considered a lot for internal medicine conditions, it is really not a lot for a tonsil hemorrhage situation on a teen who weighed as much as a small to medium size adult.

If she had a really catastrophic hemorrhage, where her entire blood volume was being rapidly replaced, with many, many units of blood products, then I would strongly suspect DIC. But 4 units isn't really all that much, relative to the potential for brisk blood loss in that area. It's about 20% of her total blood volume, which certainly indicated serious blood loss, but not catastrophic.

And as I have said before, we don't have any idea when she got those units, relative to what the family reports happened, nor whether those units were run in on a rapid infuser, or transfused consecutively over an hour or more for each unit. Clearly a doc ordered them, and so was present and aware of whatever was unfolding-- there would definitely not be standing orders for transfusion for this kind of case.

 

[Herat]

Has anyone else noticed there is no discussion about Jahi as an individual?

I mean no discussion about quality of life, what she would want, what is best for HER, what she could experience, etc....

She has become objectified in an EXTREME way! She is either "an innocent 13 year old child that deserves a chance" or she is a "dead body" but beyond that she is nothing in all of this, kwim? She does not exist as a person beyond those two descriptors.

As the functions that made her recognized as a "person" are gone, all that remains is the physical shell being artificially supported.

I think religions warn us not to worship the physical shell, but to remember the soul of our loved one.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust

 

[Sonya610]

I have to wonder if the mother was told the procedure was NOT a good idea by a doctor but she pushed ahead thinking "they want to deny surgery because it will cost money and my little girl is worth it" etc...

Common sense says (common sense meaning folks with an average or above average IQ that research before such procedures) having that level of throat and nasal surgery on an ELECTIVE basis is risky and also painful. For an adult to decide to undergo the surgery is one thing, but to decide to have the surgery performed on your child is another. I can see where guilt would factor in.

 

[Donjeta]

The concepts quality of life and experience seem meaningless to me when we're talking about someone who was declared dead a month ago. Beyond that point it is about what the family wants, feels and experiences.

The otherwise appalling article about the way the school handles the crisis was good in that the other children put into words what Jahi was like as a person. I hope that along the road they can remember her for her smile and helpful nature and infectious laughter and not just because she became brain dead and a hospital tried to starve her.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html