FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas H.S. shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #1 *Arrest*

[Gardenista]

No your policy failed again....sorry, nothing personal....

What policy?

 

[gitana1]

Criminal threat. I'm not an attorney but post online you'd like to shoot up a school or call in a bomb threat.
It is a crime to make threats even as a prank.

Ok. It looks like a bill was passed in 2015 that makes it a felony now, where before it was a misdemeanor unless it involved a bomb threat.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nake...-threats-approved-by-florida-house-panel.html

https://www.escobarlaw.com/blog/2015/10/felony-terroristic-threats-and-florida-house-bill-1113.shtml

It has to be a specific threat though. Like against a specific target. Might be hard to prosecute if too vague.

 

[CARIIS]

shouldn't be considered a generic threat. Should be taken seriously.

need money to f/u

just the facts !

did i tell you nasa is working on growing prunes in space?? That must cost a lot huh?

 

[Isabelle]

Is that why it was so loud

it was so loud

Probably sounded louder inside the building because of the walls and sound bouncing off of them, echo like.

 

[Bit of hope]

My family is from Europe and most still live there. They're very confused as well.

But this is a complex issue in our nation. It's part of our culture, our national identity, our national and Western mythology, it has to do with the embodiment of national ideals such as ruggedness, independence, self reliance, distrust of government, freedom, heroism, defending the little guy from tyranny, etc. It's actually written into our constitution. It's part of a couple hundred years of history.

So while the issue seems straightforward in other nations, in ours solutions adopted by other countries would be unlikely to work.

And as our nation has become more bifurcated, the issue has become more politicized.

It is just not easily resolveable here.

Thanks, I understand this completely....but what does it bring you and your fellow Americans....killing and devastated families again....It's like the land of the apes. I'm sure there are a lot of Americans who know how to deal with having a gun correctly...but there are so many who don't.....I don't have to tell you how many times owning a gun goes wrong....and I want to add a personal story...I lived in a rough neighborhood and my dilemma was carrying a knife or not, in case of robbery...or other things. I decided not to carry. Karma? I don't know...couldn't just fix inside myself using it, and I would have....When my mother died I found my fathers quit innocent arms.....It all went into the garbage, don't want my son ever to find them (and use them) For contrast...if I had a gun and you are a real danger to me.....wanting to do me serious harm.....maybe (still not sure) I will put you down...this is a very different issue....no defense.....and it's horrible.....

 

[gitana1]

And yet......he was allowed to buy a gun, and seriously, with genuine compassion for the family that took him in after his adopted mother died, he was allowed by them to bring his gun into their home.

I wonder if they were aware. Media says they just saw him as quirky. I certainly wouldn't let someone have an AR-15 in my home in a safe they have the key to. Not someone unrelated at a minimum.

But they could have their own and not see it as an issue.

 

[CARIIS]

ok

interesting but said quick

apparently the notion around the school regarding his expulsion was something about messing around with a ex bf I think I got it right

takes me back to valentines ??

mom passes then gf issue

wonder how many victims are female or overtly male?

 

[Isabelle]

As far as I can tell it has been a misdemeanor in Florida. And there are requirements. Like, "I'm going to go into your school and shoot you." That clearly fits. But, "One day I'm going to be a school shooter.", that may not be considered direct enough to constitute and actual threat.

At what point does a threat cross the freedom of speech line?

 

[Woodland]

Our society slays me with all the ways we ensure that a shooter like this becomes an "other". Oh he had mental issues, he's not like me. He was a loner, he's not like me. He is an immigrant, he's not like me. Every situation becomes an isolated incident that happened in a vacuum, rather than a symptom of a broken, toxic society. And then we say we need God in our lives like praying has ever helped.

Truth is, these shooters are generally born just like the rest of us, with a clean, sane slate. Over time, they are abused, neglected, isolated, bullied, told to be something they aren't, told they are this that or the other. Society raises these boys to be the violent, aggressive, hate-filled men they are. That's the bottom line. Look around us, we shame children for expressing themselves. We tell boys to "man up" and stop crying. We don't let boys wear pink. We call effeminate men "sissies."

We refuse to acknowledge that times today are not the same as they were 50-100 years ago. We refuse to acknowledge our own role in things like this. How we perpetuate it in hundreds of ways every day and that "crazy" people like this guy will take all those little microaggressions and internalize them and take them out on innocent schoolkids.

We have to start by recognizing that we as a society are part of the problem. If we can't even do that, we will NEVER solve this problem. All, JMO. Obviously.

This is so powerful Tawny - my hat is off to you for finding the words so many needed hear.

 

[LaborDayRN]

This is why we can't or won't have the conversation.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bess-kalb-nra-tweets_us_5a84ee69e4b0058d5565cbac

amen my friend.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I'm legitimately curious as to how "putting God back in our schools" is equivalent to "putting the fear of God into" someone who has a diagnosed mental condition, and how it would prevent school shootings.

From the Dictionary of Idioms: "Put the fear of God into" — to scare one very much, terrify someone

I know that my opinion will not be a popular one, but I think that taking God out of our schools, country, and lives has a lot to do with it. Also, we, as a country have embraced the victim mentality instead of personal responsibility ( both the responsibility of the parents and the children). I grew up in the 60's and 70's and I went to school with the same 90 kids from K-12. There were some crazy guys, one who lived across the street from me. He had ADHD, for sure, but no accommodations or excuses were made for him. He was expected to do well in school and expected to behave, neither of which he did very well. BUT there were consequences for his actions and for his poor school work. He is highly successful today, and he will tell you that it was that little bit of fear of God, his father, teachers, and law enforcement that kept him from going too far. He had access to guns and was a druggie and broke into homes for a while. He was picked on in school, but often times that was because he picked on a girl (me) and another random guy would step in and punch him. I actually got called to the principal's office one time because he was punching me which led to him being punched several times. He tried to tell the principal that I caused him to be beat up. Principal wasn't having any of that nonsense. He never bothered me again.
I don't know that personal responsibility and accountability is the complete answer, ( as I said, I believe we need God), but it sure cannot hurt. No one is ever happy when they think they are a victim and wronged somehow. That line of thinking brings anger and rage with it.

JMO

 

[Hope4More]

So.....he was allegedly a member of the "Republic of Florida," a white supremacist group?

 

[Betty P]

The FBI failed. Again.

We'll never know if a visit from them would have stopped him.

Actually, it's also the responsibility of Dept of Homeland Security. They're the ones who are supposed to be keeping track of domestic terrorists and right wing hate groups. They're the ones who are better equipped to monitor domestic hate group activity online and prevent these events.

That said, the federal funding for this work was cut last year

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/346552-trump-cut-funds-to-fight-anti-right-wing-violence

Had DHS been monitoring social media activity of these right wing hate groups, they would have picked up on this kid's connection to them and his extremely troubling posts in social media. They have better legal and surveillance tools to seek out and stop these terrorists than the FBI. It will be interesting to learn how they missed Cruz's association with this group:

Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Group Claims

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikolas-cruz-trained-with-florida-white-supremacist-group-leader-says/

https://www.adl.org/blog/florida-wh...-alleged-parkland-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Seems to me those are reasons TO have a much-needed discussion. IMO

Interesting how differently things are interpreted sometimes. Thanks for sharing the link.

This is why we can't or won't have the conversation.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bess-kalb-nra-tweets_us_5a84ee69e4b0058d5565cbac

 

[gitana1]

Thanks, I understand this completely....but what does it bring you and your fellow Americans....killing and devastated families again....It's like the land of the apes. I'm sure there are a lot of Americans who know how to deal with having a gun correctly...but there are so many who don't.....I don't have to tell you how many times owning a gun goes wrong....

I hear ya. Here's the thing. And people aren't going to like me for this. But I think both sides of the debate are responsible for our problem. When people are attacked for something they believe in, they become more entrenched in and defensive about their position and less able to discuss compromise.

When people view things simplistically and from positions of moral authority or arrogance, solutions become farther apart because everyone stops listenting to each other. It becomes us versus them. Stupid versus smart. Crazy versus sane.

I realize that when feelings are so strong someone like me coming in and lecturing about understanding are irritants. I seem wishy washy to many and not understanding the easy logic of the issue.

But I've studied American culture for a couple decades. That's what I got my BA in and I've continued to study ever since.

I've also been an activist on many issues since I was fairly young. So I'm truly not wishy washy!!

For me the fact remains that ours is a unique culture with unique problems so our solutions have to be different. And they will never manifest until we get down off our high horses and out of our trenches and start realizing that nothing is black and white.

Because holding onto those black and white positions hasn't done a damn thing to stop any of this.

It's complex and involves a host of interrelated issues. Things that have worked in other countries won't easily work in ours. They just won't. IMO.

 

[CARIIS]

I'm a geriatric parent of a young teenager. Does he allow me access to his phone? No, he wouldn't do so willingly, but he knows for a fact that I will take his phone away from him- and/or his computer- if I have reason to believe that he is accessing or exposing himself to inappropriate people or content.

How would I know if he is doing that? Because I routinely TALK with him about what sites he goes to & watches and what multiplayer online games he's into. Because I LISTEN to what he says, and if I hear ideas or expressions that I'm confident he isn't hearing at home or from his friends, I ASK him about what I'm hearing.

He knows I would never invade his privacy, and he knows I trust him, but he also is equally aware that I love him enough to not allow him to make preventable, dangerous mistakes that he doesn't have enough awareness yet to know he's risking.

Wonderful writing! TY

 

[gitana1]

At what point does a threat cross the freedom of speech line?

It probably comes down to case law. So specific examples. And I think it has to be somewhat specific. Like a certain target- building or group for example.

 

[popsicle]

*bump

Let's put aside the gun issue. Let's just assume everyone has access to guns and that's all there is to it.

To get these kids to stop killing their classmates we have to figure out why this keeps happening.

What is going on at home? In their life?

That's what we need to find out. Why these kids think killing is the answer.

I am at a loss.

Tricia
PS. Did I mention do not bring up guns? Oh, yes I did right at the top. SEE IT RIGHT THERE IT SAYS " LET'S PUT ASIDE THE GUN ISSUE. LET'S JUST ASSUME EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO GUNS AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT". Did you read it? Good!

 

[Betty P]

I hear ya. Here's the thing. And people aren't going to like me for this. But I think both sides of the debate are responsible for our problem. When people are attacked for something they believe in, they become more entrenched in and defensive about their position and less able to discuss compromise.

When people view things simplistically and from positions of moral authority or arrogance, solutions become farther apart because everyone stops listenting to each other. It becomes us versus them. Stupid versus smart. Crazy versus sane.

I realize that when feelings are so strong someone like me coming in and lecturing about understanding are irritants. I seem wishy washy to many and not understanding the easy logic of the issue.

But I've studied American culture for a couple decades. That's what I got my BA in and I've continued to study ever since.

I've also been an activist on many issues since I was fairly young. So I'm truly not wishy washy!!

For me the fact remains that ours is a unique culture with unique problems so our solutions have to be different. And they will never manifest until we get down off our high horses and out of our trenches and start realizing that nothing is black and white.

Because holding onto those black and white positions hasn't done a damn thing to stop any of this.

It's complex and involves a host of interrelated issues. Things that have worked in other countries won't easily work in ours. They just won't. IMO.

Part of it also has to do with the inability of Congress to put "clean" bills on the floor for a vote. Both sides often reach common ground on minor, but much needed public policy changes, yet they link the bills to a bunch of other controversial legislation that ends up killing or stalling it. From what I understand, that's what happened with legislation banning bump-stocks after the Las Vegas massacre.

If both sides reach an agreement on good legislation and go public about it, they need to put it out there as a "clean bill", dealing only with the policy change discussed and nothing more. Stop playing games.

 

[Gardenista]

Actually, it's also the responsibility of Dept of Homeland Security. They're the ones who are supposed to be keeping track of domestic terrorists and right wing hate groups. They're the ones who are better equipped to monitor domestic hate group activity online and prevent these events.

That said, the federal funding for this work was cut last year

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/346552-trump-cut-funds-to-fight-anti-right-wing-violence

Had DHS been monitoring social media activity of these right wing hate groups, they would have picked up on this kid's connection to them and his extremely troubling posts in social media. They have better legal and surveillance tools to seek out and stop these terrorists than the FBI. It will be interesting to learn how they missed Cruz's association with this group:

Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Group Claims

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nikolas-cruz-trained-with-florida-white-supremacist-group-leader-says/

https://www.adl.org/blog/florida-wh...-alleged-parkland-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz

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https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/f...trics/biometric-center-of-excellence/partners

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