FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[MsFacetious]

GZ had dew and grass on his back, and blood on the back of his head, and blood coming out of his nose.

I'm just really humbly asking this, honestly. Why do so few see this as self-defense? This is about ALL I need to hear to believe it was a case of shooting in self-defense.

Because it isn't self defense when you chase somebody down.

You call the cops, you do as you are told and you wait until they arrive. You do not approach the person.

If you chase someone down because they "look" suspicious... how does that make YOU look?

Suspicious.

So if you have the right to defend yourself against this suspicious person you are chasing...

Why can't they defend themselves against the suspicious person chasing them? :waitasec:

 

[Talina]

Grass on Zimmerman's back, seems like defensive? Bloody nose, bloody back of his skull seemed defensive?

I'm really honestly trying to understand why people don't think this evidence is CLEAR evidence of defense.

GZ was on his back, on the ground, with several head wounds.

I would shoot anyone who was in that position over me if I had a gun, no matter what the fat difference was between us. And this is seeming to hinge on how fat GZ was vs. the slim height/weight of Martin.

The problem I have with believing what happened could even remotely be called self defense by Zimmerman is because he was the aggressor. He is who initiated the confrontation.

I don't care if he had his head split open. I don't care if he had several cracked ribs.

Tray did not approach him and start the confrontation. Zimmerman initiated it. He started it and he finished it.

Tray had every right to react to the aggression being exhibited by Zimmerman. If Zimmerman got a bloody nose and banged up noggin for his troubles so be it.

Saying he is justified in shooting someone dead because they gave him a bloody nose and scuffed up his head (which we do not know this to be fact as of right now) is like saying the school yard bully is justified in killing the kid being bullied because he kid decided he was going to fight back instead of cowering to the bully.

I don't think I'd ever be able to give anyone a pass of self defense for any type of confrontation if that person is who initiated the situation, regardless of how severe their injuries ended up being.

The aggressors injuries are not going to sway me one bit towards thinking they were only defending themself. Had they not been aggressive to begin with, there would not be anything to which they'd have to defend themself.

IMO

 

[chefmom]

GZ had dew and grass on his back, and blood on the back of his head, and blood coming out of his nose.

I'm just really humbly asking this, honestly. Why do so few see this as self-defense? This is about ALL I need to hear to believe it was a case of shooting in self-defense.

I do not see it as self defense because GZ didn't need to pursue TM. The 911 operator told him "we don't need you to do that." He chose to tail the kid. Perhaps TM was frightened by this strange man following him around the complex. We do not know exactly what happened but we do know 2 things to be fact. 1. GZ was persuing TM. and 2. TM is dead. If they were indeed wrestling around on the ground prior to the gunshot, that in itself could explain the alledged injuries to GZ. Until I see a doctors statement describing the extent of the injuries, I have to assume they were superficial. I mean, surely the victim of an attack, who bares injuries, would be checked out at least by a MEMS attendent, and these wounds would be stated in the police report. I guess we will know more when these things are released. MOO

 

[SpriteGal]

Yup, I agree the minute you start chasing someone self defense goes out the window. They are trying to run-away from YOU. There is no need to defend yourself, if they aren't going after you. IMO.

 

[Krisy]

Justice Department, FBI to probe Florida teen's death


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/19/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Late Monday, the Justice Department said it would dispatch officials to Sanford to investigate and "to address tension in the community."
"The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation," Justice Department spokeswoman Xochitl Hinojosa said in a written statement. "The department also is providing assistance to and cooperating with the state officials in their investigation into the incident."

 

[Sensei]

Hi all! New to posting, but a longtime lurker. To me, in my opinion, he says "these f---ing thugs."

That's kinda what I thought he said, but I wasn't quite sure. So all I can say is that is what it sounds like to me....

 

[Isabelle]

GZ had dew and grass on his back, and blood on the back of his head, and blood coming out of his nose.

I'm just really humbly asking this, honestly. Why do so few see this as self-defense? This is about ALL I need to hear to believe it was a case of shooting in self-defense.

I would hope if I were being chased an caught, I would live long enough to give the perp a bloody nose before he killed me!

 

[MicciStella]

on a better note, and hopefully more helpful

Alyssa Milano is tweeting @FBI, to launch an investigation of the death of Trayvon Martin

Blair Underwood is also tweeting and speaking out, it looks like some celebrities are now on their soap boxes and hopefully it is going very viral very soon....

That might get things moving in the right direction.

Hill Harper and Omar Benson Miller are tweeting too...

Let's spread the word so that young Trayvon and his Family get justice.....

You WS'ler rock.... Thanks all...

Micci

 

[HiHater]

Hi all! New to posting, but a longtime lurker. To me, in my opinion, he says "these f---ing thugs."

WOW! He does say that. I guess knowing what to listen for helped. I hear it SO clearly, but why isn't that reported in the media as well?

Good catch...

 

[mrsu]

Here is the full FL statute on use of deadly force and the "Stand Your Ground Law":

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

All of this is flipping BOGUS!!! There is absolutely ZERO evidence that GZ was preventing a forceable felony. The only felony I see here is the one GZ committed.

 

[Isabelle]

Grass on Zimmerman's back, seems like defensive? Bloody nose, bloody back of his skull seemed defensive?

I'm really honestly trying to understand why people don't think this evidence is CLEAR evidence of defense.

GZ was on his back, on the ground, with several head wounds.

I would shoot anyone who was in that position over me if I had a gun, no matter what the fat difference was between us. And this is seeming to hinge on how fat GZ was vs. the slim height/weight of Martin.

Chasing down a person and then claiming self defense is not self defense. GZ gave Trayvon a reason to fight back, GZ instigated the situation, then killed a young man who was unarmed.

 

[jjenny]

Yup, I agree the minute you start chasing someone self defense goes out the window. They are trying to run-away from YOU. There is no need to defend yourself, if they aren't going after you. IMO.

According to that one article, GZ claims he was merely walking back to his truck when he was attacked from behind. And there are no witnesses to contradict that. People can be upset all they want, but passing a law such as Fl did results in this type of situation like we have here. Why weren't people protesting when this law was passed?

 

[Isabelle]

If there are riots and a spike in crime in Florida, LE and lawmakers have only themselves to thank!

 

[Wise Old Owl]

According to that one article, GZ claims he was merely walking back to his truck when he was attacked from behind. And there are no witnesses to contradict that. People can be upset all they want, but passing a law such as Fl did results in this type of situation like we have here. Why weren't people protesting when this law was passed?

Probably because of the very violent home invasions we've been having. There are many many many of them. Lots of times people are killed - and very brutally at that. Some residents are fighting back now - so I guess they thought there was a "need" for this law.

JMO

 

[Isabelle]

Does anyone know if GZ is still the neighborhood watch 'cop'? Wonder what the neighborhood association thinks of him now!

 

[MicciStella]

Justice Department, FBI to probe Florida teen's death


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/19/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I am really glad about that, but have a lot of concern because of the lack of the competence the Sanford LE showed from the beginning, with the lack of taking in taking care of evidence, lack of competence regarding witnesses.. And so on..... And so on ....

I am so saddened and really frustrated....

And yes only my opinion

Micci

 

[jjenny]

All of this is flipping BOGUS!!! There is absolutely ZERO evidence that GZ was preventing a forceable felony. The only felony I see here is the one GZ committed.

You need to read the whole thing. One doesn't have to prevent forcible felony to use deadly force. They even have a chapter on use of deadly force by aggressors.

 

[Sensei]

According to that one article, GZ claims he was merely walking back to his truck when he was attacked from behind. And there are no witnesses to contradict that. People can be upset all they want, but passing a law such as Fl did results in this type of situation like we have here. Why weren't people protesting when this law was passed?

You don't really have to have witnesses....Circumstantial evidence is STILL evidence. And the fact of the matter is that there is ample reason to distrust Zimmermans accounting of events and most of it he created himself with the 911 calls.

he tells the dispatcher where he is currently located when he is in the truck, and if he knows where he is and where the clubhouse is in a neighborhood that he patrols often, WHY pray tell would he have to get out of the truck to see a street sign?

And why would he be looking for that street sign between buildings almost on someone's porch?

What he claims he was doing, going back to his truck after looking for a street sign, and where he claims he was jumped from behind do not match, in fact has to be a bold faced lie, period....how does that make anyone certain that he was attacked, and not that he attacked, Treyvon fought back and then was shot.

plain and simple, he was doing something he should NOT have been, he was not doing what he is trying to claim he was and he is alive and Trayvon is dead, rendering someone dead and unable to tell their tale should NOT give you a pass on murder....that was NOT the letter or spirit of the law as it was written.

 

[HiHater]

Listen to George Zimmerman's PAST 911 calls: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...ports-black-male-he-s-seen-before#pl-62773735


None of them have anything to do with Trayvon...

 

[LolaMoon08]

I am really glad about that, but have a lot of concern because of the lack of the competence the Sanford LE showed from the beginning, with the lack of taking in taking care of evidence, lack of competence regarding witnesses.. And so on..... And so on ....

I am so saddened and really frustrated....

And yes only my opinion

Micci

There needs to be a major investigation into how Sanford Police handled this case. Someone mentioned the dash cams earlier? I wonder if there are any tapes that catches conversations with Zimmerman? Maybe we would see if he had any injuries?