FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[cityslick]

To me it's simple:

Until someone can prove to me what possibly the kid did/could do to Zimmerman that would cause Zimmerman to use 'excessive' force (shooting a gun is excessive), it's murder.

That being said, I don't see how he's not going down for this. Because at some point, the pressure and outrage of the public is going to force the hand of the state or even the federals if they can prove he said a racial slur on the tape (FBI has better listening devices than CNN I imagine).

Yes, there still is racism in this county. For every case like this, there are 10 more that happen that you never hear about. From this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit before they could hear the ones in this case.

 

[LambChop]

"Someone help me get this gun out, so i can shoot this kid that i went out of my way to confront!"

Like that???

Maybe GZ saw the bulge in TM's pocket and assumed it was a gun and that is why he shot him. If GZ told LE TM had a gun in his pocket and they turned him over and found only the ice tea I could see an officer thinking to himself that he could have made the same mistake (only LE can't shoot unless they know it really is a gun) and the officer felt bad for GZ. And GZ did say it was self defense but from what. We know TM had no deadly weapon yet GZ feared for his life. How is that possible unless GZ assumed TM had a weapon also.

It appears they need to interview each of those officers individually and find out what happened once they were all on the scene because there appears to be nothing to indicate GZ had a reason to fear for his life. I think those officers know GZ made a bad judgment call and are just trying to cover for him. Time for them to step up to the plate and be honest in their reportings. jmo

 

[Sensei]

respectfully snipped

Yes, the same one who thinks he's defending GZ but kept saying that GZ was fed up, that black kids had committed burglaries in the past.

he is not helping anyone understand why GZ was roaming the streets with a loaded gun. He is not helping us understand that it is perfectly reasonable to be stopping and confronting anyone in the streets with a loaded gun because there have been 8 burglaries in 15 months.

Incidentally I wonder what the total dollar value of the 8 burglaries would be stacked up against the life of a person? Even if GZ had in fact caught the exact perpetrator of the burglaries, you don't get the death penalty for burglary...and the neighbor has not nor has anyone else ever said that this group of black kids that are making the neighborhood miserable with their thefts were ever accused of being violent or hurting anyone.

there have been a few burglaries and petty thefts in my neighborhood too, but that doesn't mean that if I catch them in the act I am allowed to shoot them, or roam the streets with a loaded gun looking for them. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[annalia]

BEM: He's 9 years older, and he was cleared by police, so "brutally murdered" is not a fact, yet. What are you basing "he didn't like the way he looked", on?



BEM: Based on what?

I am truly trying to figure out what happened myself, but aside from the 17 yr. old was shot and police cleared him, I've not read anything that indicates he was a time bomb waiting to happen or that he was racist. What I heard on the "witness" 911 call was a lot of loud yelling, not just "help" and then the gun shot. The racial slur he is being accused of is used by old people and white supremacists, and I've seen no indication of the latter.

Something just isn't right, can't put my finger on it. He called 911 46 times in the past and this was the first confrontation? Odd, no? Need more info!

He was cleared by police without and before any investigation. The same police dept that has prior issues with not arresting or charging people who committed crimes against blacks. Witnesses stated that police tried to change their statement when they said that they heard Tray screaming. then police wouldn't return all of their phone calls when they tried to amke sure that their statement was correct.

Much is based on Gz's own words that bear out that he was after Tray and not about to let another *advertiser censored******* get away. He went after him with a loaded weapon, after 911 told him they don't need him to do that. GZ convicted Tray based on how he looked.

Tray was walking home from the store, talking on the phone with his girlfriend. GZ said he 'looked' like he was up to no good, he 'looked' like he was on drugs.

I don't get the bolded part, that doesn't make sense, we don't know that GZ never used that word or that it's only used by white supremacists and old people. But there's no way that the word he used was cold. That came from the neighbor, the one who makes GZ look worse the more he tries to defend him.

GZ does have documented aggression problems in his past. Just because they didn't end up in murder doesn't negate what he did then and here.

This may not be entirely racial but there's no doubt, in my mind, that Tray's race played a major part in GZ deciding to hunt him down with a loaded weapon, and that SPD just decided to take his word for everything and just assume that this black kid must have been guilty of something.


JMHO

 

[Sensei]

Maybe GZ saw the bulge in TM's pocket and assumed it was a gun and that is why he shot him. If GZ told LE TM had a gun in his pocket and they turned him over and found only the ice tea I could see an officer thinking to himself that he could have made the same mistake (only LE can't shoot unless they know it really is a gun) and the officer felt bad for GZ. And GZ did say it was self defense but from what. We know TM had no deadly weapon yet GZ feared for his life. How is that possible unless GZ assumed TM had a weapon also.

It appears they need to interview each of those officers individually and find out what happened once they were all on the scene because there appears to be nothing to indicate GZ had a reason to fear for his life. I think those officers know GZ made a bad judgment call and are just trying to cover for him. Time for them to step up to the plate and be honest in their reportings. jmo

You touch on the one thing that I just can't wrap my mind around, WHAT could TM have done that would cause GZ to have a reasonable fear for his life. The law does not say that you only have to be in fear for your life but that the totality of the circumstances make that fear reasonable. I can just see no reasonable reason that GZ would be in fear of his life, even if TM punched him, even if it looked like he was losing a fist fight.

The only thing that might make it reasonable is if they got in a struggle for the gun, and in that instance GZ is entirely in the wrong because he pulled the gun on an unarmed kid who was not punching him, or a threat to him..otherwise TM would never have known the gun was there.

Just because you are in fear for your life because you truly believe that all black kids are high on drugs, thugs, and carrying weapons does not give you a license to shoot them based on that fear if the fear is not reasonable, and how reasonable can it be if you went to a fair amount of trouble to chase and catch up to one first before you could shoot him. IMO JMHO and stuff

 

[JeannaT]

So thankful to wake up this morning and check in to the news and see there was peace overnight. I think the move by Lee to temporarily step down, and get a special prosecutor for this case were insightful decisions, and hopefully this case can move forward peacefully toward a lawful conclusion. Whatever that conclusion turns out to be.

Whew.

 

[JeannaT]

You touch on the one thing that I just can't wrap my mind around, WHAT could TM have done that would cause GZ to have a reasonable fear for his life. The law does not say that you only have to be in fear for your life but that the totality of the circumstances make that fear reasonable. I can just see no reasonable reason that GZ would be in fear of his life, even if TM punched him, even if it looked like he was losing a fist fight.

The only thing that might make it reasonable is if they got in a struggle for the gun, and in that instance GZ is entirely in the wrong because he pulled the gun on an unarmed kid who was not punching him, or a threat to him..otherwise TM would never have known the gun was there.

Just because you are in fear for your life because you truly believe that all black kids are high on drugs, thugs, and carrying weapons does not give you a license to shoot them based on that fear if the fear is not reasonable, and how reasonable can it be if you went to a fair amount of trouble to chase and catch up to one first before you could shoot him. IMO JMHO and stuff

He could be on top of him, punching him in the head and smashing the back of his head into the ground. That would create reasonable fear.

And before anyone says that a lean muscular teenager can't best a fat 20 something guy, that's just incorrect. In a fight, I'd back Trayvon every time over GZ, just based on appearance alone. Fat doesn't equal strength.

 

[rotterdam]

Maybe GZ saw the bulge in TM's pocket and assumed it was a gun and that is why he shot him. If GZ told LE TM had a gun in his pocket and they turned him over and found only the ice tea I could see an officer thinking to himself that he could have made the same mistake (only LE can't shoot unless they know it really is a gun) and the officer felt bad for GZ. And GZ did say it was self defense but from what. We know TM had no deadly weapon yet GZ feared for his life. How is that possible unless GZ assumed TM had a weapon also.

It appears they need to interview each of those officers individually and find out what happened once they were all on the scene because there appears to be nothing to indicate GZ had a reason to fear for his life. I think those officers know GZ made a bad judgment call and are just trying to cover for him. Time for them to step up to the plate and be honest in their reportings. jmo

I just can not understand why GZ would think that Trayvon had a gun unless he just plain lied. Would it not be more logical that Trayvon had it ready prior to the struggle since he was being followed. It just does not add up. Why fight if you have a gun. Tray only had his fists, skittles and can of Arizona iced tea and GZ knew that.
It would be more logical that GZ just got mad because Tray bopped him one on the nose and GZ shot him in revenge. The ballistics and entry trajectory are very crucial in the investigation IMO.

 

[Sensei]

I think that we should be really happy with the new special prosecutor for this case, check her out

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey"]Angela Corey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

During her 26 years as a prosecutor, she tried several hundred cases, which included 54 homicides.[5]

In 1996, her primary responsibility became homicide prosecutions, but she also supervised lawyers in the Felony division. Shorstein changed Corey's work assignment in 2005 from director of the Gun Crime Unit to director of the County CoThe Florida Council on Crime and Delinquency gave her their Criminal Justice Distinguished Award; the Florida Department of Corrections honored her as a Role Model for Women in the Area of Criminal Justice award; the Mayor's Victim Assistance Advisory Council bestowed the Judicial Victim Advocate Award; and Corey received the Distinguished Service Award from the office where she's now the bossurt, which handles misdemeanors. In that position, she trained newly hired lawyers to be prosecutors. She previously served as Juvenile division supervisor.[5]

 

[rotterdam]

respectfully snipped



he is not helping anyone understand why GZ was roaming the streets with a loaded gun. He is not helping us understand that it is perfectly reasonable to be stopping and confronting anyone in the streets with a loaded gun because there have been 8 burglaries in 15 months.

Incidentally I wonder what the total dollar value of the 8 burglaries would be stacked up against the life of a person? Even if GZ had in fact caught the exact perpetrator of the burglaries, you don't get the death penalty for burglary...and the neighbor has not nor has anyone else ever said that this group of black kids that are making the neighborhood miserable with their thefts were ever accused of being violent or hurting anyone.

there have been a few burglaries and petty thefts in my neighborhood too, but that doesn't mean that if I catch them in the act I am allowed to shoot them, or roam the streets with a loaded gun looking for them. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I guess you do not live in Florida. Looks to me you can shoot them there. All you have to say is that you were scared of them. In fact you do not have to catch them even in the act. Looking suspicious to you is good enough in Fl..
Of course regular folks like us would not shoot a person for that but GZ types would.

 

[annalia]

I agree. Children are murdered every day. We have communities coming together for everyone's rights but theirs. Would love to see this same kind of movement for ALL of them.

But we're muddying the issue here.

As horrific as the crimes against all murdered children are, that's not the issue in this case. Police in the majority of those cases do an investigation. So what would the movement be about in those cases?

The issue here is that this particular police dept and how they handled this particular case. It's about a guy who decided that an innocent black kid was up to no good for simply walking down the street ( where he had every right to be ), who decided that he was the judge and jury against this innocent kid.

If there was no public outcry in this case, there would have been no investigation, Tray would just have been considered another black kid up to no good.

For me, I applaud the outcry.

JMHO

 

[Sensei]

He could be on top of him, punching him in the head and smashing the back of his head into the ground. That would create reasonable fear.

And before anyone says that a lean muscular teenager can't best a fat 20 something guy, that's just incorrect. In a fight, I'd back Trayvon every time over GZ, just based on appearance alone. Fat doesn't equal strength.

Then at the very least I would expect to see pictures of GZ 's bloodied and battered face and head, there should be medical reports that outline the exact extent of the horrific injuries he suffered, but I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that evidence since IMO common sense tells me that if that evidence was available to be shown it would have been shown already.

If the Police Chief and the Mayor and the City Manager had had this evidece to Prove that there was in face actual evidence that would indicate that this was in fact self defense that that GZ's assertion of it was reasonable I think it would be widely and readily available, the fact that it isn't speaks volumes, since all anyone wants is to know why and how LE came up with the idea that TM could be gunned down when he was unarmed and committing no crime...IMO JMHO and stuff

 

[lowens1975]

To me it's simple:

Until someone can prove to me what possibly the kid did/could do to Zimmerman that would cause Zimmerman to use 'excessive' force (shooting a gun is excessive), it's murder.

That being said, I don't see how he's not going down for this. Because at some point, the pressure and outrage of the public is going to force the hand of the state or even the federals if they can prove he said a racial slur on the tape (FBI has better listening devices than CNN I imagine).

Yes, there still is racism in this county. For every case like this, there are 10 more that happen that you never hear about. From this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit before they could hear the ones in this case.

BBM -

Agreed, wholeheartedly. I am appalled at the news media on this one. I am no fan of Sanford PD, they make negative news more often than not. But this time, I don't think they deserve the heat they are receiving from the media. The police chief didn't quit...good for him, let him 'stand his ground'. He's being blamed for not 'filing charges' and all he did was present the case he had to the prosecutors, it was their decision not to file charges. And to drag the 'Stand your ground' and make it about race, when the law itself was designed to protect ALL the citizens of Florida and make it a HUMAN right to defend yourself against an attack.

I believe Zimmerman was doing his own 'racial profiling'. Couple that with the fact that he went against the advice of police and not only followed Trayvon, he got out of his car and confronted him. There was no need for a gun when a camera or video recorder would have sufficed. This is clear case of vigilantism, nothing else. A 'Charles Bronson' wanna be. And he should be prosecuted...but I don't think the police is at fault on this one.

 

[songline]

BEM: He's 9 years older, and he was cleared by police, so "brutally murdered" is not a fact, yet. What are you basing "he didn't like the way he looked", on?

Cleard by the police is ODD in itself. Why did they clear a dead boy? tested him DNA and drugs....
To me it is very strange that only the boy was cleared. :waitasec:



BEM: Based on what?

I am truly trying to figure out what happened myself, but aside from the 17 yr. old was shot and police cleared him, I've not read anything that indicates he was a time bomb waiting to happen or that he was racist. What I heard on the "witness" 911 call was a lot of loud yelling, not just "help" and then the gun shot. The racial slur he is being accused of is used by old people and white supremacists, and I've seen no indication of the latter.

Something just isn't right, can't put my finger on it. He called 911 46 times in the past and this was the first confrontation? Odd, no? Need more info!

This is a tough case... IMHO as the neighbor said Zimmerman had a FED UP case due to 8 robberies in 15 months...that is a robbery every other month.
When he saw Tayron whom he did not recognize as part of the community with a hoody up (yes it was raining) looking like he may be hiding he followed him. FINE…I understand it up to here.
What I do not understand is when Zimmerman did call into the police, why didn’t they come and take over? When they told him to leave it alone, why did he keep persisting?

 

[annalia]

Then at the very least I would expect to see pictures of GZ 's bloodied and battered face and head, there should be medical reports that outline the exact extent of the horrific injuries he suffered, but I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that evidence since IMO common sense tells me that if that evidence was available to be shown it would have been shown already.

If the Police Chief and the Mayor and the City Manager had had this evidece to Prove that there was in face actual evidence that would indicate that this was in fact self defense that that GZ's assertion of it was reasonable I think it would be widely and readily available, the fact that it isn't speaks volumes, since all anyone wants is to know why and how LE came up with the idea that TM could be gunned down when he was unarmed and committing no crime...IMO JMHO and stuff

And it can't be ignored that had Tray been on top of GZ and GZ shot him, then GZ would have been covered in Tray's blood. Especially shooting him in the chest.

Why nothing noted on the police report about any blood anywhere but his nose and back of head? Why nothing noted about checking GZ to see if blood was due to an injury or if it was Tray's blood on him due to being shot at such close range?

JMHO

 

[songline]

BBM -

Agreed, wholeheartedly. I am appalled at the news media on this one. I am no fan of Sanford PD, they make negative news more often than not. But this time, I don't think they deserve the heat they are receiving from the media. The police chief didn't quit...good for him, let him 'stand his ground'. He's being blamed for not 'filing charges' and all he did was present the case he had to the prosecutors, it was their decision not to file charges. And to drag the 'Stand your ground' and make it about race, when the law itself was designed to protect ALL the citizens of Florida and make it a HUMAN right to defend yourself against an attack.
Whenever you bring Al Sharpton in - it is always the race case... Sadly I can see the parents of Tayron feeling helpless and using whatever they can to get the case moving. they want answers...
And Now I will sound racist but I am not....When in doubt use the race card..

I believe Zimmerman was doing his own 'racial profiling'. Couple that with the fact that he went against the advice of police and not only followed Trayvon, he got out of his car and confronted him. There was no need for a gun when a camera or video recorder would have sufficed. This is clear case of vigilantism, nothing else. A 'Charles Bronson' wanna be. And he should be prosecuted...but I don't think the police is at fault on this one.

I totally agree a camera or video recorder would have sufficed.. And sadly Zimmerman being Fed up is not good enough.

 

[annalia]

To me it's simple:

Until someone can prove to me what possibly the kid did/could do to Zimmerman that would cause Zimmerman to use 'excessive' force (shooting a gun is excessive), it's murder.

That being said, I don't see how he's not going down for this. Because at some point, the pressure and outrage of the public is going to force the hand of the state or even the federals if they can prove he said a racial slur on the tape (FBI has better listening devices than CNN I imagine).

Yes, there still is racism in this county. For every case like this, there are 10 more that happen that you never hear about. From this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/opinion/granderson-florida-shootings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The nation heard the 911 tapes from last month's tragic shooting at Chardon High School in Ohio within 24 hours of the incident. Martin's parents had to file a lawsuit before they could hear the ones in this case.

my bolding

Great point

 

[Adrienne37]

I guess you do not live in Florida. Looks to me you can shoot them there. All you have to say is that you were scared of them. In fact you do not have to catch them even in the act. Looking suspicious to you is good enough in Fl..
Of course regular folks like us would not shoot a person for that but GZ types would.

but that's only if you are wearing a hoodie.

 

[songline]

but we're muddying the issue here.

As horrific as the crimes against all murdered children are, that's not the issue in this case. Police in the majority of those cases do an investigation. So what would the movement be about in those cases?

the issue here is that this particular police dept and how they handled this particular case. It's about a guy who decided that an innocent black kid was up to no good for simply walking down the street ( where he had every right to be ), who decided that he was the judge and jury against this innocent kid.if there was no public outcry in this case, there would have been no investigation, tray would just have been considered another black kid up to no good.

For me, i applaud the outcry.


Jmho

bbm
bingo!

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Not sure if this has been posted yet but it's and interview w/ the volunteer coordinator for Sanford PD who set up the watch program for the gated community. I feel bad for her.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46830953/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/