FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[SuziQ]

LE confiscated a holster that Zimmerman had along with the firearm. I would assume the weapon was in the holster until seconds before he used it; otherwise Martin probably would have run. imo

This is not absolutely true. I made a long post about this a few days ago explaining why I have asked alot of people over the years "If you were alone and held at gunpoint what would you do?" Almost everyone has answered that they would try to fight or talk their way out of the situation. When I asked why they said because they were afraid if they ran they would get shot in the back. Based on that knowledge and the fact that it appears that Trayvon was pleading for his life, IMO, Trayvon didn't run because because he did have a gun drawn on him and was afraid of getting shot if he ran. JMO, of course!

 

[annalia]

It's fine to make fun and say everyone wears hoodies, including our grandmothers. On the other hand, it is totally naive too think it's always just a fad and to feel completely safe when a suspicious person is wearing a solid color hoodie (without decorative marks), over their head and it's not cold or raining -- IOW, no excuse to be covering their head.

Thieves and drug dealers have worn hoodies for YEARS because they can't be ID'd by eyewitnesses or on surveillance cameras. I manage multi-family properties. I had a property about 12 years ago in Dallas, Tx, where drug dealers stood out on the street in front of one of my buildings. I remember the first time I called 911, they asked what the dealers were wearing...all three had on dark hoodies over their heads, black sweats and white tennis shoes. When they saw LE drive up they took off into the buildings - the officer told me that at least 50 other drug dealers in the immediate area are described the same way making it almost impossible to ID them.

Trayvon's dad stumbled a little when he said he had a hoodie on because it was raining, his girlfriend also mentioned the hoodie:

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the 16-year-old girl says.

Why would he put his hoodie on because the man was "watching him"? To hide his face? Obviously.

Here's a great example of criminals wearing hoodies during a home invasion, none could be identified. The examples are countless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzkGMhH8L1w

We need to stick to the facts here.

The facts of THIS case.

It WAS raining. he was walking home from the store, talking to his girlfriend on his phone. Bothering no one.

Why would he put his hoodie on when a strange adult, who was first following him in his car, and the then followed him on foot, having lost him once and then saw he was being followed again?

What's obvious, in my opinion is that when some strange adult is following a kid, first in a car and then on foot, that the kid putting up the hoodie is getting scared and nervous why he's being followed.

JMHO

 

[vlpate]

annalia - We need to stick to the facts here.

The facts of THIS case.

It WAS raining. he was walking home from the store, talking to his girlfriend on his phone. Bothering no one.

Why would he put his hoodie on when a strange adult, who was first following him in his car, and the then followed him on foot, having lost him once and then saw he was being followed again?

What's obvious, in my opinion is that when some strange adult is following a kid, first in a car and then on foot, that the kid putting up the hoodie is getting scared and nervous why he's being followed.

BEM: I wouldn't know, like everyone else here, I wasn't there. I stated the facts. His girlfriend said he put the hoodie on because Zimmerman was watching him.

Here's another fact, Trayvon never stopped, in all the time Zimmerman was supposedly "stalking "him, to ask what's up. His girlfriend also said Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "why are you stopping me?" That sounds to me like Trayvon was aware Zimmerman patrolled the property.

Then again, the girlfriend didn't come forward for almost a month to tell ABC (exclusively), and the family's attorney, about the phone call....so who knows what's true or how much that cost ABC.

I agree, stick to the facts.

 

[SuziQ]

"Trayvon would be alive if he hadn't been wearing a hoodie" = "She wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't been wearing sexy clothing"

Blame the victim. :banghead:

Thank you!!!

 

[annalia]

BEM: I wouldn't know, like everyone else here, I wasn't there. I stated the facts. His girlfriend said he put the hoodie on because Zimmerman was watching him.

Here's another fact, Trayvon never stopped, in all the time Zimmerman was supposedly "stalking "him, to ask what's up. His girlfriend also said Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "why are you stopping me?" That sounds to me like Trayvon was aware Zimmerman patrolled the property.

Then again, the girlfriend didn't come forward for almost a month to tell ABC (exclusively), and the family's attorney, about the phone call....so who knows what's true or how much that cost ABC.

I agree, stick to the facts.

No, it's distorting the facts. taking one small fact and twisting it into something it wasn't.

GZ never identified himself, Trayvon was a visitor, Trayvon never said that he knew GZ was patrolling, that isn't a fact in any way shape or form, it's a huge, huge, leap to say that Trayvon knew who GZ was.

Trayvon never stopped because he was trying to get home, how does mean that he knew GZ was patrolling? So Trayvon shouldn't have been walking home after going to the store with his skittles and iced tea? I don't get that logic at all.

Again, it's not a fact that the gf never came forward until a month later, we do know for a fact that she was so traumatized that she was hospitalized. The phone records support her claims, did the phone company lie too?

There are facts that we know that have been supported by phone records, and 911 timelines.

JMHO

 

[annalia]

And the girlfriend never said that Trayvon said why are you "stopping" me.

She said that Trayvon said why are you "following" me.

 

[tlcya]

It's fine to make fun and say everyone wears hoodies, including our grandmothers. On the other hand, it is totally naive too think it's always just a fad and to feel completely safe when a suspicious person is wearing a solid color hoodie (without decorative marks), over their head and it's not cold or raining -- IOW, no excuse to be covering their head.

Thieves and drug dealers have worn hoodies for YEARS because they can't be ID'd by eyewitnesses or on surveillance cameras. I manage multi-family properties. I had a property about 12 years ago in Dallas, Tx, where drug dealers stood out on the street in front of one of my buildings. I remember the first time I called 911, they asked what the dealers were wearing...all three had on dark hoodies over their heads, black sweats and white tennis shoes. When they saw LE drive up they took off into the buildings - the officer told me that at least 50 other drug dealers in the immediate area are described the same way making it almost impossible to ID them.

Trayvon's dad stumbled a little when he said he had a hoodie on because it was raining, his girlfriend also mentioned the hoodie:

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the 16-year-old girl says.

Why would he put his hoodie on because the man was "watching him"? To hide his face? Obviously.

Here's a great example of criminals wearing hoodies during a home invasion, none could be identified. The examples are countless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzkGMhH8L1w

Perhaps he put his hoodie on so as to better keep a surreptitious eye on GZ (the man who was following him and seemed to be showing undue interest in him from Trayvon's perspective). The better to sneak glances back at someone without them knowing for sure that you are watching them watching you. A perfectly cautious approach to trying to figure out why a mystery man is following you for unknown reasons

 

[Lovejac]

It's fine to make fun and say everyone wears hoodies, including our grandmothers. On the other hand, it is totally naive too think it's always just a fad and to feel completely safe when a suspicious person is wearing a solid color hoodie (without decorative marks), over their head and it's not cold or raining -- IOW, no excuse to be covering their head.

Thieves and drug dealers have worn hoodies for YEARS because they can't be ID'd by eyewitnesses or on surveillance cameras. I manage multi-family properties. I had a property about 12 years ago in Dallas, Tx, where drug dealers stood out on the street in front of one of my buildings. I remember the first time I called 911, they asked what the dealers were wearing...all three had on dark hoodies over their heads, black sweats and white tennis shoes. When they saw LE drive up they took off into the buildings - the officer told me that at least 50 other drug dealers in the immediate area are described the same way making it almost impossible to ID them.

Trayvon's dad stumbled a little when he said he had a hoodie on because it was raining, his girlfriend also mentioned the hoodie:

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the 16-year-old girl says.

Why would he put his hoodie on because the man was "watching him"? To hide his face? Obviously.

Here's a great example of criminals wearing hoodies during a home invasion, none could be identified. The examples are countless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzkGMhH8L1w

Maybe he put his hoodie on for both reasons. To hide his face so he could keep an eye on this creepy guy that was following him AND because of the rain. It was reported Trayvon had a headset on, aren't those things kind of pricy? I wouldnt want the rain to mess it up.

 

[Lovejac]

Perhaps he put his hoodie on so as to better keep a surreptitious eye on GZ (the man who was following him and seemed to be showing undue interest in him from Trayvon's perspective). The better to sneak glances back at someone without them knowing for sure that you are watching them watching you. A perfectly cautious approach to trying to figure out why a mystery man is following you for unknown reasons

I've done this same thing before using my sunglasses.

 

[vlpate]

And the girlfriend never said that Trayvon said why are you "stopping" me.

She said that Trayvon said why are you "following" me.

Then it was the lawyer, I put up links to both.

There are two versions, one played on HLN, and an account by Crump, the attorney. I posted both links upthread. I'll see if I can find them if you'd like.

 

[vlpate]

Statement from the City Manager - this may have been posted already, new for me.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't know about anyone else, but everytime the forum moves slowly, I go through major withdrawal.

The super baby gangsta was so cute!

ETA: I cannot believe we are now talking about whether a person is allowed or not allowed to wear a hoodie. Geraldo will be fired over this one, imo. Finally!!

 

[vlpate]

Statement from the City Manager - this may have been posted already, new for me.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

"If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this
investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following
him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call
taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.
Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to
meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon. "

This is supported by the injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. The girlfriend said she heard Zimmerman hit TM, when in fact, she couldn't have known that - perhaps it was TM who hit Zimmerrman?

 

[LolaMoon08]

Geraldo's comments have made me a little worried? Is he already laying the ground work for his buddy, Jose Baez's defense for George Zimmerman? You know, blame the victim, like he blamed Caylee for her death?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

"If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this
investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following
him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call
taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.
Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to
meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon. "

This is supported by the injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. The girlfriend said she heard Zimmerman hit TM, when in fact, she couldn't have known that - perhaps it was TM who hit Zimmerrman?

1. TM's friends (see post with article link upthread) said that he would not have picked a fight. Maybe they are all lying, but it makes more sense to me that they are telling the truth and the claim that TM attacked GZ is the lie, especially coming from someone who had good reason to lie.

2. IIRC the police report did not say that GZ had a head injury, only that he had blood on his head.

 

[TerriM]

"Trayvon would be alive if he hadn't been wearing a hoodie" = "She wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't been wearing sexy clothing"

Blame the victim. :banghead:

My exact thoughts

 

[Velouria]

"If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this
investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following
him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call
taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.
Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to
meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon. "

This is supported by the injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. The girlfriend said she heard Zimmerman hit TM, when in fact, she couldn't have known that - perhaps it was TM who hit Zimmerrman?

BBM

Oh yes, the nebulous, alleged injury to the back of GZ's head.

I'd love to see the treating EMT's report on this injury, along with photographs.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Geraldo is getting killed on twitter right now. People are MAD!! Even his own son is mad! Oh you did it now, Geraldo!

 

[gxm]

I agree LambChop. I'm over at the courthouse almost every day, and it is always a sea of humanity. People in suits to people dressed like thugs. And yet, some of the nicest people to hold a door or elevator, to ask if I need help carrying things, and to call me ma'am are the ones dressed in the stereotypically "threatening" manner. I've learned quickly not to judge by appearances because the man with the chains and neck tattoo may be quite nice, while the lawyer in the suit may try and shut the elevator door on my arm.

I spent a great deal of my life dealing with street harassment. This meant regularly taking longer routes to avoid construction sites. And, yes, it often meant crossing the street or retreating into a building if I encountered hostile attention. I really don't understand the idea that a non-confrontational act like crossing the street could be considered offensive. IMO, if someone actually notices that I crossed the street then they're way more focused on me than they should be.

Now the kicker is that, in my experience, black men were more likely to be aggravated by this than other men. Hispanic and/or white men usually took the hint without insult. This is why I often did not cross the street if a black man was harassing me (I had to be more creative with my damage control).

IMO, if a woman feels uncomfortable she has every right to follow her gut and remove herself (as best she can) from the situation. For me that's a no-brainer and I can't understand why anyone would even take issue with it.

 

[vlpate]

No, it's distorting the facts. taking one small fact and twisting it into something it wasn't.

GZ never identified himself, Trayvon was a visitor, Trayvon never said that he knew GZ was patrolling, that isn't a fact in any way shape or form, it's a huge, huge, leap to say that Trayvon knew who GZ was.

You know this how? Details of the investigation have not been made public.

Trayvon never stopped because he was trying to get home, how does mean that he knew GZ was patrolling? So Trayvon shouldn't have been walking home after going to the store with his skittles and iced tea? I don't get that logic at all.

For the life of me I don't get what skittles and iced tea has to do with this, maybe, like the 12 year old picture that's been plastered everywhere, it makes him seem younger than he was? Trayvon was in a gated community - he was obviously familiar with the community because his father lived there, correct? There are signs that indicate a "neighborhood watch" patrols the area. It has been said that Zimmerman took his job seriously which means, to me, he was out a lot patrolling. It's not a huge community and other neighbors, the two girls, said they knew of him (doesn't say hi). Not a stretch that he at least knew OF him.

Again, it's not a fact that the gf never came forward until a month later, we do know for a fact that she was so traumatized that she was hospitalized. The phone records support her claims, did the phone company lie too?

It is a fact that she didn't come forward until March 19, if I remember correctly. Trayvon wasn't identified for two days - when did she become traumatized, on the third day? How long was she in the hospital and why tell a family attorney and not the police? Seriously, no one finds this sketchy?

There are facts that we know that have been supported by phone records, and 911 timelines.

JMHO

There is a police report and a letter from the City Commissioner - there are statements from eye witnesses and a 911 call where yelling is heard in the background....more than just "help". The phone records are those of the girlfriend that were given to the attorney for the family after the investigation. Doesn't add up, IMO.