FL 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #11

[rossva]

bbm, and what did the kid do?

No disrespect to you - I'm not really responding to you personally, just the issue in general.

Honestly I'm tired of hearing about whether or not he was a nice kid or a complete punk. It doesn't matter. Nothing he did prior to that night matters. It really makes it no less of a tragedy or loss. Teenagers often suck, they just do. My 15 year old drives me nuts but I love him no less. It's a stage, they outgrow it.

You know, even if GZ did catch him doing something illegal (which I don't believe at all). The bottom line is still the same. He was relentlessly pursuing someone he had no right to pursue. He had already called the cops. He was safe in his vehicle. He could have sat it in and locked his doors. He had SO MANY choices he could have made. But he left Trayvon with few choices.

I was followed in a mall a week ago by a weird teenager - he just wouldn't let up, I tried to ignore him, I tried to lose him in a store. Finally I had no choice but to turn around and shout at him "why are you following me?" I went from being worried and uncomfortable, to being royally ticked off. I needed to do something immediate and I was prepared to get into a confrontation, the kid left me with no choice.

I wouldn't blame Trayvon for getting mad and confronting GZ. But again, GZ had a choice, he had the upper hand - he could have driven away or stayed in his truck. Instead he CHOSE to get out and get into the confrontation.

 

[m00c0w]

Going to a store and then back to a house is considered "wandering around?" Seriously?

We don't know what he was doing. We know he went to a store at some point, but not really anything else.

 

[TonyGatto]

Why did TM come back to fight GZ? Are you telling me that you believe that GZ just took off running, caught TM and shot him just like that? I think TM gave him lip, then decked him.

Well if TM gave him lip and then decked him, which we know by the 911 tapes would have come after GZ had followed him, that is just fine because he probably felt threatened and was standing his ground.

 

[songline]

Going to a store and then back to a house is considered "wandering around?" Seriously?

On a rainy day when nobody else is out?
YA!

 

[gxm]

Maybe Tray was scared chitless with this man on top of him and just screaming for help, maybe he didn't actually "fight" back? If you were witnessing this in the "dark" it might look like a "fight" when actually you have someone who has already subdued someone sitting on top of him getting ready to shoot.

And if it was sooooo dark that the witness who said GZ was not injured can't be believed because " he couldn't see well enough" to do that. Then I guess it was to dark for those who said they thought Tray was on top to really be sure eh?

ETA: Actually we have video where GZ does not look like he has been in a "fight" and we have the funeral director saying it did not look like "Tray" had been in a fight.....I don't think it's a stretch to say, hmmmm, maybe there was no "fight" maybe we had a scared kid who was yeliing, but doing what GZ was saying and GZ shot him.

Yes. I've been bringing up the poor visibility for days. Given my understanding of the Florida laws (which is minimal at best), I really don't see that there will be enough evidence to support even a manslaughter charge unless there's some forensic evidence that we don't know about.

 

[Bottle Cap]

Depends on what his past had been like. <modsnip> I have no info on your son other than what you have told me. But, yes, if he had been hanging out on his cell phone hanging out, wandering around, yes, I would wonder why there was not any reinforcement at home from the parents.

I don't know as you can say there wasn't any reinforcement at home without an IMO stuck to it. Unless of course you have a link to something that shows that its something other than judgmental speculation.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Is is reasonable to be concerned that a bulge in the front pocket of a hooded jacket COULD BE a weapon?

All the more reason to leave it to the cops.

 

[tehcloser]

HOW IS THAT SO???
NONE of the people can say what happened before the shot. NOT ONE SO FAR can say anything about SEEING anything. They heard voices, arguing, fighting before the shot.. SAW NOTHING TILL AFTER THE SHOT.

Maybe the have been following along like we have? Maybe they see the video of GZ with no visible injuries and read that the funeral director said Tray had not been in a fight and realize, Hey wait a minute, this whole "self defense" thing is a crock. Maybe they realize if GZ had simply stayed in his car and not played cop.......Tray would still be alive. I wasn't there but what I have seen so far, tells me it was unjustified.

 

[m00c0w]

Maybe Tray was scared chitless with this man on top of him and just screaming for help, maybe he didn't actually "fight" back? If you were witnessing this in the "dark" it might look like a "fight" when actually you have someone who has already subdued someone sitting on top of him getting ready to shoot.

And if it was sooooo dark that the witness who said GZ was not injured can't be believed because " he couldn't see well enough" to do that. Then I guess it was to dark for those who said they thought Tray was on top to really be sure eh?

ETA: Actually we have video where GZ does not look like he has been in a "fight" and we have the funeral director saying it did not look like "Tray" had been in a fight.....I don't think it's a stretch to say, hmmmm, maybe there was no "fight" maybe we had a scared kid who was yeliing, but doing what GZ was saying and GZ shot him.

BBM

This witness's visual acuity has nothing to do with what others may have seen. You don't know what their vision is like at night compared to other individuals, nor what the other individuals' vision is like. This is a false premise through and through.

 

[jojomonkey]

bbm, and what did the kid do?

He then asked me to let him use my cell phone - I told him no, to go to security and ask them. He wouldn't leave and asked a couple more times, I had to shout at him again to leave me alone. He finally walked off. He was acting very strangely the entire time.

 

[TonyGatto]

But I do hope that an autopsy will give us the FACTS not a view.

Me too. Just like the 911 calls give us the FACTS, as do the police videotape and the witness accounts. Yes, I hope the FACTS continue to mount, because they are starting to paint the true, factual, accurate picture of what really happened.

 

[jojomonkey]

On a rainy day when nobody else is out?
YA!

Yep. I live in the Pacific Northwest - my son goes out all the time in the rain to walk to a nearby Walgreens and get a soda or snacks.

 

[gxm]

He then asked me to let him use my cell phone - I told him no, to go to security and ask them. He wouldn't leave and asked a couple more times, I had to shout at him again to leave me alone. He finally walked off. He was acting very strangely the entire time.

Wow. That's freaky. And scary. Glad he finally left you alone.

 

[cityslick]

Well if TM gave him lip and then decked him, which we know by the 911 tapes would have come after GZ had followed him, that is just fine because he probably felt threatened and was standing his ground.

Actually, that would be getting into a problem territory as far as the Stand Your Ground law if TM threw the first punch (therefore he attacked GZ first).

 

[Wise Old Owl]

You asked why he re-holstered his weapon in the last thread.

Simply, because that's what you're told to do. You secure your weapon so that 1) someone else cannot retrieve it, and 2) you're not brandishing when the police arrive. The holster, at that point, would be the safest place for the weapon. I'm not sure preservation of evidence is really on anyone's mind at that juncture. He probably just wanted to not be holding on to it when the police came up.

BBM

Well within minutes it was in GZ's mind (and LE's on the scene as well) that this was a SYG or self defense case and GZ was justified.

I get your reasons for the re-holstering - I do. However, there were only 2 in that fight. One was face down (dead actually) but certainly not moving.

Drop the gun and just stand over it. There is no one that is going to "retrieve" it. Of course you wouldn't want to be brandishing it when LE pulled up.

we're talking a matter of seconds here - anywhere from 60 to 120 seconds - depending on rounding out numbers. LE was on-scene very very quick - they were already en route when the altercation broke out.

Immediately after the shot - we have witnesses stating various things. One was that GZ was on top of TM and then he got off and was just pacing around looking dazed - even after someone had tried to yell something at him a couple of times. He finally looked at them and said "call the police".

But he knew the police were already enroute. So, was he that stunned and dazed from what just happened? If he was - yet he was aware enough to re-holster the gun?

GZ had never shot and killed anyone before - so previous experience was not in his realm of thought. It is a horriffic, shocking, adrenaline pumping experience to do that. Yet, GZ has the presence of mind to re-holster the gun instead of just dropping it. Odd.

It just doesn't add up to me. The whole thing. If it was self-defense then why immediately admit to "I shot him" as your first words to LE? Why re-holster you gun possibly erasing crucial evidence?

Then to see GZ not even a full hour after the shooting with nary a drop of blood on him - no where. Spatter from a close range shot - especially if they were both fighting over the gun would have been evident on GZ. Period. I did enough looking and reading up on that "lovely" subject yesterday to conclude that's my opinion.

I still say (and this is JMHO) that for GZ's sake - he had better hope forensics on that gun show some type of print (even if its just a smudge) from Trayvon's hand. Because right now - its sure not looking like a self-defense case. But again, that's JMHO


It just ain't all fittin'

It ain't fittin'

 

[tehcloser]

BBM

This witness's visual acuity has nothing to do with what others may have seen. You don't know what their vision is like at night compared to other individuals, nor what the other individuals' vision is like. This is a false premise through and through.

Not really. More than one witnesses spoke of it being "dark" and that they couldn't be sure, it was not just the one.

 

[m00c0w]

BBM

Well within minutes it was in GZ's mind (and LE's on the scene as well) that this was a SYG or self defense case and GZ was justified.

I get your reasons for the re-holstering - I do. However, there were only 2 in that fight. One was face down (dead actually) but certainly not moving.

Drop the gun and just stand over it. There is no one that is going to "retrieve" it. Of course you wouldn't want to be brandishing it when LE pulled up.

we're talking a matter of seconds here - anywhere from 60 to 120 seconds - depending on rounding out numbers. LE was on-scene very very quick - they were already en route when the altercation broke out.

Immediately after the shot - we have witnesses stating various things. One was that GZ was on top of TM and then he got off and was just pacing around looking dazed - even after someone had tried to yell something at him a couple of times. He finally looked at them and said "call the police".

But he knew the police were already enroute. So, was he that stunned and dazed from what just happened? If he was - yet he was aware enough to re-holster the gun?

GZ had never shot and killed anyone before - so previous experience was not in his realm of thought. It is a horriffic, shocking, adrenaline pumping experience to do that. Yet, GZ has the presence of mind to re-holster the gun instead of just dropping it. Odd.

I just doesn't add up to me. The whole thing. If it was self-defense then why immediately admit to "I shot him" as your first words to LE? Why re-holster you gun possibly erasing crucial evidence?

Then to see GZ not even a full hour after the shooting with nary a drop of blood on him - no where. Spatter from a close range shot - especially if they were both fighting over the gun would have been evident on GZ. Period. I did enough looking and reading up on that "lovely" subject yesterday to conclude that's my opinion.

I still say (and this is JMHO) that for GZ's sake - he had better hope forensics on that gun show some type of print (even if its just a smudge) from Taryvon's hand. Because right now - its sure not looking like a self-defense case. But again, that's JMHO


It just ain't all fittin'

It ain't fittin'

I'm not sure why it's so weird that he holstered his gun. That's where his gun goes. That's where he's always kept it, always put it. You revert back to what you instinctually know during times of high stress. That was where he always kept it, so why would this time be any different?

I've never read a story of a self-defense shooting where the shooter immediately dropped their weapon. They either kept holding it to make sure the assailant did not return/get up, or they holstered it.

 

[raeann]

You asked why he re-holstered his weapon in the last thread.

Simply, because that's what you're told to do. You secure your weapon so that 1) someone else cannot retrieve it, and 2) you're not brandishing when the police arrive. The holster, at that point, would be the safest place for the weapon. I'm not sure preservation of evidence is really on anyone's mind at that juncture. He probably just wanted to not be holding on to it when the police came up.[/QUOTE]


BBM

WHY?? Because he did not want to be shot by someone before any facts were known about who he was and what he was doing there????


hmmmm..........

 

[katydid23]

Maybe Tray was scared chitless with this man on top of him and just screaming for help, maybe he didn't actually "fight" back? If you were witnessing this in the "dark" it might look like a "fight" when actually you have someone who has already subdued someone sitting on top of him getting ready to shoot.

And if it was sooooo dark that the witness who said GZ was not injured can't be believed because " he couldn't see well enough" to do that. Then I guess it was to dark for those who said they thought Tray was on top to really be sure eh?

ETA: Actually we have video where GZ does not look like he has been in a "fight" and we have the funeral director saying it did not look like "Tray" had been in a fight.....I don't think it's a stretch to say, hmmmm, maybe there was no "fight" maybe we had a scared kid who was yeliing, but doing what GZ was saying and GZ shot him.

There is also the possibility that TM saw the gun and tried to grab it and they struggled over who was going to get it first. I don't think GZ would just shoot him for no reason. I really don't. He never shot at anyone before this. Why now?

 

[SuziQ]

Is is reasonable to be concerned that a bulge in the front pocket of a hooded jacket COULD BE a weapon?

Yes. My brain would be telling me that I sure as heck don't need to be chasing a possibly armed person down! UH UH.