GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #19

[Zedzded]

I never turned onto Trescott Drive
I saw the tape and carried straight on to Centreville
I turned onto Trescott Drive, but did an immediate "k-turn" at the junction of Centreville and Trescott
I drove down Trescott Drive as it's a shortcut (its not)
I drove down Trescott Drive as I have a poor sense of direction
I did not drive to the crime scene
I drove down Trescott and did a U-turn when I saw the police tape
I thought there had been a downed tree

What the hell is she going to say if she has to take the stand in DA's trial? She's going to be forced to admit she drove to the crime scene, saw 8+ emergency cars, 19 first responders all outside her ex's house and called no-one. GC is going to have a field day.

 

[Zedzded]

RSBM and BBM -

IMO, it is perfectly acceptable to say "those people suck" and be morally superior to them. I'd be willing to bet 99.99% of the population would have approached the divorce and relocation differently and no one had to die.

It's interesting how many people don't put their kids first when it comes to divorce. The kids well-being is not a priority, it's all about trying to beat your ex. The kids are simply pawns in a game. I'm amicable with my ex, she tried (and failed) to get a restraining order out on me and now we're spending Xmas together and I'm going to her sisters wedding... lol.

 

[clearskies1]

I don't feel much empathy for the Adelsons. For me the case is engrossing because of their extreme risk taking. There is CCTV all over the place. People talk. Mistakes are made. There really was only one person/family with a motive. I think the risk of getting caught was pretty high. But even if the risk was less than 5% the consequences are unreal -- LWOP or the death penalty. Just incredibly dumb to do it. JMO.

 

[Wishbone]

RSBM and BBM -

IMO, it is perfectly acceptable to say "those people suck" and be morally superior to them. I'd be willing to bet 99.99% of the population would have approached the divorce and relocation differently and no one had to die.

I feel nothing but contempt for that entire wretched family. Are they immoral or amoral, I don't know,either definition fits them for the murderous act they were a part of and lack of remorse they display. Prison seems to good for them.

 

[apeXperience]

Donna and Harvey selected The Philippines as their final hideout.

June Umchinda said in her interview with FBI and TPD:
1. Charlie got Bree pregnant within 6 weeks of meeting her
2. Charlie pressured June Umchinda to have kids with him but she refused unless they get married
3. Charlie goes to The Philippines to see Allisa.

Do Donna and Harvey have a grandchild in The Philippines (might be Allisa’s child)?

This question seems laughable but at the intersection of strange obsession for grandchildren and bizarre self hiring hit men as a murderous excuse, every eventuality could be a reality.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I don't feel much empathy for the Adelsons. For me the case is engrossing because of their extreme risk taking. There is CCTV all over the place. People talk. Mistakes are made. There really was only one person/family with a motive. I think the risk of getting caught was pretty high. But even if the risk was less than 5% the consequences are unreal -- LWOP or the death penalty. Just incredibly dumb to do it.

I am really enjoying this conversation actually. I have had to ask myself this question (and explain it to friends when I try to convince them to pay attention). Why are we so obsessed with this case?

When I said I can empathize with all the perpetrators except Wendi, I really meant "rationalize their criminal decision making - even if it was immoral". But there is no rationalizing Wendi's blind and burning hatred of Dan. Because for Wendi, before you get to the "nasty divorce angle" you first have to explain the circumstances of how she left Dan - which is just shy of checking her and the kids into a family violence shelter except that it was carefully planned for months and involved taking parenting classes, emptying out safety deposit boxes, her 50% of all his accounts while keeping 100% of hers and much much more.

And if you can explain that, you then have to explain her treatment of him when he was trying to win her back. And when she wouldn't take him back, when he tried to have a positive co-parenting relationship. And then explain her lies and manipulations in her petition to relocate and demand for full custody. And stealing the Markel heirloom holocaust diamond ring she never wore and refusing to give it back (still! She is perfectly fine erasing the Markel surname and associated middle names, but that Markel holocaust diamond she never wore must really have sentimental value to her). Dan told Tamara Demko that everything was "okay" with the family and then they just suddenly flipped on him and they both thought that Wendi must have convinced her family that he was abusive to her in the marriage - and not in a "he made me drive from Tally to Miami so he could do his work" type of "abuse". The source for all the hatred of Dan was Wendi.

 

[Knitpicker]

I hope this is allowed. Pls remove if not. Many of you probably know this, but I just listened to an interview with Charlie’s ex girlfriend… Deep Dive True Crime on YouTube posted on May 13, 2023 “Police interview with south Florida beauty June Umchinda…”. Very interesting interview conducted before Katie & Sig’s trial. But lots of info about Charlie. She seems like a real sweetheart. I feel sorry for her. Charlie really did a number on her. Anyway near the end of the interview she mentions a couple of times about reading here (WS) and says something like those people really know.

A sweetheart? She lied on the stand didn’t she? Didn’t she say during KM’s trial that Charlie paid for one of KM’s breasts? And then on the stand at Charlies trial she said he paid for none of it. So during which trial did she not tell he truth?

 

[Knitpicker]

I appreciate the perspective. I can see why one would have that reaction to the Adelsons. Speaking purely for myself, I struggle with it. Instinctively, I often feel a deep sense of rage when I think about the Adelsons and what they did. But I do not like that, and I try to remind myself that there are people and there are acts. I'm 100% fine with condemning the Adelsons' acts as evil etc. I'm less comfortable condemning them wholly as humans. Part of the reason has to do with religious beliefs that I won't inflict on anyone, and of course all this is solely my take--not trying to tell anyone what they think, just characterizing my own take. And trying to focus on their acts as evil is perfectly consistent with wanting to see them punished to the fullest extent of the law.

For what it's worth though, and at the risk of writing the least popular post in the history of Websleuths, I see a parallel between the way the Adelsons got obsessed with hating Dan and the way some of the dialogue about the Adelsons seems obsessed with hating them. Of course, the rationale for hating Dan (rough divorce from their daughter/sister) is different than the rationale for hating the Adelsons (cold blooded murder). But there's a similarity there and I think it's that hating someone can become weirdly enjoyable in a dark way. It comes from the desire that's in all of us to feel superior to or dominant over others. By saying "those people suck," you're implicitly saying, "And I'm superior."

I should admit: I've totally gone down the Adelson-hating road, and maybe that's why this topic has me so wound up. I see myself in it big time. I celebrated like a *advertiser censored* when CA was found guilty, even though that meant yet another person effectively had their life ended in this sad affair. I made jokes and snide remarks about both of them facing prison after living lives of self-indulgence and wealth. And I laughed or cheered in the moment, but kind of like other harmful self-indulgences, afterward I kind of felt like *advertiser censored* about it.

Because think how the Markels reacted when CA was convicted: They were glad for the just outcome, but somber. It's not a happy thing when someone gets sent to prison for life, even if it's the right result. So I am trying, and often failing, to use them as an exemplar and take the high road.

This post got too long. Apologies for running on. I should probably just go to bed.

<modsnip - off topic>
I realized for myself, after seeing Donnas last mug shot, how depraved the human heart could be and I wondered if she felt remorse over the harm she was involved in of course not tried yet).
I felt myself pitying her, not finding pleasure in her arrest.
<modsnip - off topic>

 

[Zedzded]

A sweetheart? She lied on the stand didn’t she? Didn’t she say during KM’s trial that Charlie paid for one of KM’s breasts? And then on the stand at Charlies trial she said he paid for none of it. So during which trial did she not tell he truth?

She was useless on the stand. Lied multiple times, "forgot" or was confused often, probably in some vain attempt to help CA, but failed miserably in that regard.

 

[Wishbone]

I am really enjoying this conversation actually. I have had to ask myself this question (and explain it to friends when I try to convince them to pay attention). Why are we so obsessed with this case?

When I said I can empathize with all the perpetrators except Wendi, I really meant "rationalize their criminal decision making - even if it was immoral". But there is no rationalizing Wendi's blind and burning hatred of Dan. Because for Wendi, before you get to the "nasty divorce angle" you first have to explain the circumstances of how she left Dan - which is just shy of checking her and the kids into a family violence shelter except that it was carefully planned for months and involved taking parenting classes, emptying out safety deposit boxes, her 50% of all his accounts while keeping 100% of hers and much much more.

And if you can explain that, you then have to explain her treatment of him when he was trying to win her back. And when she wouldn't take him back, when he tried to have a positive co-parenting relationship. And then explain her lies and manipulations in her petition to relocate and demand for full custody. And stealing the Markel heirloom holocaust diamond ring she never wore and refusing to give it back (still! She is perfectly fine erasing the Markel surname and associated middle names, but that Markel holocaust diamond she never wore must really have sentimental value to her). Dan told Tamara Demko that everything was "okay" with the family and then they just suddenly flipped on him and they both thought that Wendi must have convinced her family that he was abusive to her in the marriage - and not in a "he made me drive from Tally to Miami so he could do his work" type of "abuse". The source for all the hatred of Dan was Wendi.

As I, yet again, watch old videos, I still wonder at WA's demeanor and affect. I don't believe I have ever met another person that displays themselves as she does. I feel as though her facial expressions and head and body movements are mocking everyone and making fun of them. If she is trying to portray innocence, it's not working for me. Even though her mother praise her acting skills. For me personally her expressions are the most unnatural I've ever observed. I feel creepy just watching her. IMO she appears diabolical behind the bizarre mask she shows to the court. I wonder if others feel their skin crawl when watching her.....

 

[Misy]

A sweetheart? She lied on the stand didn’t she? Didn’t she say during KM’s trial that Charlie paid for one of KM’s breasts? And then on the stand at Charlies trial she said he paid for none of it. So during which trial did she not tell he truth?

I only saw her testimony 1 x each (Katie’s then Charlie’s). Not aware of any outright lies but I’ll have to re-watch. In the FBI/TPD interview I was referring to I don’t believe she says anything about Katie’s breast implants (1 or both). But she mentioned something about hearing that Charlie was paying for Katie’s defense team and that Charlie had said that was “BS”. June doesn’t strike me as anything but a naive girl who was in love, was used & deceived, tried to believe in CS but began questioning him & everything that was coming out against him and the family. She seemed very genuine to me, heartbroken and felt abandoned by CS and easily replaced by CS new “baby mama”.

 

[Gypsy Road]

Watc


I agree. I think overall many, many people we interact with, friends partners etc are closet sociopaths or latent sociopaths. We never get to see their real side, because they become adept at hiding their character flaws. They learn that in order for them to function within our society they are required to be truthful and to show empathy and to not be manipulative. And many go through their entire lives with no-one figuring out who they really are. It's when they are faced with certain challenges that they unravel, they may get fired or arrested or have a partner leave them and then their true persona comes forward.

We like to think that overall most members of society are good, true, honest people. People that care and that have your back. But when the sh!!T hits the fan, then you find out the truth.

I agree!! Off topic, but I truly believe social media is also encouraging to further promote narcissistic behavior in society. I really do!

 

[Gypsy Road]

A sweetheart? She lied on the stand didn’t she? Didn’t she say during KM’s trial that Charlie paid for one of KM’s breasts? And then on the stand at Charlies trial she said he paid for none of it. So during which trial did she not tell he truth?

Agree! I am not at all a fan of June. She is still trying to cover for CA, acted dumb on the stand, told Georgia the police transcript of her interview was wrong. Plus, I think she is a gold digger who would have never looked Charlie’s way if he didn’t have money to buy her all the expensive things he lavished her with. Her pretty looks and dumb act don’t fool me into thinking she is a sweetheart. JMO

 

[Honeynut]

I recall hearing that she met him when she signed the kids up for school after she moved to Miami. This would’ve been almost a year after the murder.

Right? All the comments & speculation about Dave... If anything, pumping him for cyber info was to give her comfort( guilty paranoia ) about past technology communications with her family. Also how to proceed with communication during arrests, trials, etc.

 

[Missyrocks5]

RSBM and BBM -

IMO, it is perfectly acceptable to say "those people suck" and be morally superior to them. I'd be willing to bet 99.99% of the population would have approached the divorce and relocation differently and no one had to die.

Agree. Part of the fascination with this case is the arrogance and entitlement that underlies the mentality of why they chose the path they did. They all were living the life of Riley – money, power, friends in all the right places, advanced degrees, respect, and millions in the bank.

But it is the entitlement and the arrogant mindset that they have from a life of privilege that lead to this. Look at CA. We have all written about him from having his family allegedly get him into dental school, after he gets taken aside allegedly to tell him that he needs to make an effort in school, his reaction is to instead cause trouble for the individual trying to set him straight. He does not even have to try to do anything after dental school because he had his father's business to waltz into so his grades etc didn't matter. His alleged travel to indulge his, shall we say, alleged predilections to bragging about lying to law-enforcement after getting pulled over for tickets & getting out of them, & then what appears to be some really shady-ish with their finances and stock trading. And that's only what we know about.

Due to their privilege, these people have lived a life without consequences for their actions. It is nothing but satisfying to see when people like that get their comeuppance. They did what they did because they got away with everything else in their life so they figured why would this be any different. They are too rich, too powerful, and too well-connected to have to pay for anything that they do. It always reminds me of when Leona Helmsley said only the little people pay taxes. Murdaugh & so many others.

As I've said before they FA & now they're Finding Out. Justice finally came. I can see some cases where someone is brought up from an horrific background of abuse, foster care, no money, having to scrounge for every penny, violent , abusive parents, whatever you can fill in the blank. Maybe then perhaps there could be some discussion of environment in childhood, and what that can do. However, there are tons of people who grow up in abusive homes, and never go on to do anything violent. I'm just saying that to make my point and juxtapose them.

I'll further make the point by saying, does anyone doubt for a moment that if CA walked out that door with an NG, that he wouldn't go right back to doing everything wrong in his life? I bet it would've further emboldened him to be even worse. Invincible.

 

[amicuscurie]

Someone asked if people know some lesser known info in this case, and, ironically, for the first time yesterday, I watched the video of a woman who was friends with both DM and WA. Not sure if her name is Tamara orTamra. If you all haven't seen this, I highly recommend it. I'm not sure, but there may be two videos on it. I don't know if I know how to link it, but I will try to link one of them here. It is on Mentour L's channel.

It's absolutely fascinating what she put together so quickly. She had the vantage point of knowing all the players, and having been around the A's many times. She thought it was extremely suspicious that Harvey wouldn't look her in the eyes at the funeral. She said she believed that WA had told so many horrific stories of what supposed abuse Dan inflicted upon her for which that family absolutely hated him. She suspected both of the men, CA and HA, potentially doing this. She said there is no way they would do it themselves. She very smartly ask questions that we all now know where the correct questions – who would've known Dan's schedule to do this.

But she had so much insight into the dynamics into that family, and all the things that had gone on. For all of us who are on here, I would say he won't be sorry you spent any time watching it. Also, I don't think she is allowed to talk about any of this stuff now as she may be a witness.

She said DA acted normally at the funeral, but HA wouldn't look her in the eyes. She found that sus. She really suspected both men and gave WA the benefit of the doubt. She was friendly with WA. She went into history of WA leaving the boys with people & going out of town or doing whatever. DM would be mad. Sounds like now- dA was with those boys all the time.

She thinks WA lied to make DM sound much worse to instill such hatred in him,& she badmouthed him at FSU as well. Toxic divorce where they'd lawyer shop so an attorney couldn't be used by the other side in such a small town. She says WA plays her cards close to the vest & reveals very little about herself. Much more here.

Yes, Tamara is great! She and LaCasse put this together right away. Sometimes people just get a gut feeling. Unfortunately that can be hard to articulate, and sometimes it might not meet the legal standard for charging someone. But in this case, in my opinion, they were right about a lot of things.

 

[Missyrocks5]

Yes, Tamara is great! She and LaCasse put this together right away. Sometimes people just get a gut feeling. Unfortunately that can be hard to articulate, and sometimes it might not meet the legal standard for charging someone. But in this case, in my opinion, they were right about a lot of things.

So true! I can't believe I hadn't seen this before. It is really informative. You could see how she is freaking out about what she is realizing as she is saying it. She and JL are highly intelligent and intuitive people. Like you said, just had the innate capability to put it all together. They both handed LE who did it within a few days of the murder. Kudos.

 

[amicuscurie]

Agree. Part of the fascination with this case is the arrogance and entitlement that underlies the mentality of why they chose the path they did. They all were living the life of Riley – money, power, friends in all the right places, advanced degrees, respect, and millions in the bank.

But it is the entitlement and the arrogant mindset that they have from a life of privilege that lead to this. Look at CA. We have all written about him from having his family allegedly get him into dental school, after he gets taken aside allegedly to tell him that he needs to make an effort in school, his reaction is to instead cause trouble for the individual trying to set him straight. He does not even have to try to do anything after dental school because he had his father's business to waltz into so his grades etc didn't matter. His alleged travel to indulge his, shall we say, alleged predilections to bragging about lying to law-enforcement after getting pulled over for tickets & getting out of them, & then what appears to be some really shady-ish with their finances and stock trading. And that's only what we know about.

Due to their privilege, these people have lived a life without consequences for their actions. It is nothing but satisfying to see when people like that get their comeuppance. They did what they did because they got away with everything else in their life so they figured why would this be any different. They are too rich, too powerful, and too well-connected to have to pay for anything that they do. It always reminds me of when Leona Helmsley said only the little people pay taxes. Murdaugh & so many others.

As I've said before they FA & now they're Finding Out. Justice finally came. I can see some cases where someone is brought up from an horrific background of abuse, foster care, no money, having to scrounge for every penny, violent , abusive parents, whatever you can fill in the blank. Maybe then perhaps there could be some discussion of environment in childhood, and what that can do. However, there are tons of people who grow up in abusive homes, and never go on to do anything violent. I'm just saying that to make my point and juxtapose them.

I'll further make the point by saying, does anyone doubt for a moment that if CA walked out that door with an NG, that he wouldn't go right back to doing everything wrong in his life? I bet it would've further emboldened him to be even worse. Invincible.

I don’t think it’s their privilege that made them do what they are alleged to have done. Plenty of rich people are not criminals or murderers. I don’t know the A family, so I can’t speak to them specifically, but in my opinion generally, some people are sociopaths, they lack a conscience. This may help them become wealthy in some cases. But the wealth is not the source of the dysfunction. From what I’ve read on sociopathy, some people are just born without the capacity to feel empathy. Most of them, again from what I read, are not murderers, fortunately. Just my opinion.

 

[Missyrocks5]

I don’t think it’s their privilege that made them do what they are alleged to have done. Plenty of rich people are not criminals or murderers. I don’t know the A family, so I can’t speak to them specifically, but in my opinion generally, some people are sociopaths, they lack a conscience. This may help them become wealthy in some cases. But the wealth is not the source of the dysfunction. From what I’ve read on sociopathy, some people are just born without the capacity to feel empathy. Most of them, again from what I read, are not murderers, fortunately. Just my opinion.

I think though it's like a chicken and egg scenario. Born a sociopath, or created by the privilege & parents who enable it because they are as well. Like when kids get in trouble in school when they're little for things they clearly did wrong, but the parents come in and throw their weight around to instead look to go after the teacher and the principal for calling out the bad behavior. And then the kid skates away from it because of that.

I'm talking about that kind of privilege & entitlement & lack of consequences for wrongdoing that then snowballs into more and more of it as the kid gets older. Maybe some are born that way, but maybe it is created by circumstances like what I'm describing. Hearing the story in the podcast about them making fun of Rob because he correctly and honestly returned too much change I think says a lot. The bad behavior was nurtured and encouraged in that family imo.

 

[amicuscurie]

I think though it's like a chicken and egg scenario. Born a sociopath, or created by the privilege & parents who enable it because they are as well. Like when kids get in trouble in school when they're little for things they clearly did wrong, but the parents come in and throw their weight around to instead look to go after the teacher and the principal for calling out the bad behavior. And then the kid skates away from it because of that.

I'm talking about that kind of privilege & entitlement & lack of consequences for wrongdoing that then snowballs into more and more of it as the kid gets older. Maybe some are born that way, but maybe it is created by circumstances like what I'm describing. Hearing the story in the podcast about them making fun of Rob because he correctly and honestly returned too much change I think says a lot. The bad behavior was nurtured and encouraged in that family imo.

Oh, definitely! I see what you mean. I wonder why Rob did seem to have a conscience, (at least to me based on that anecdote about receiving too much change)? Maybe some behavior is genetic, and some is learned. You’re right, it’s hard to tell. I do agree that if you let your kids get away with small things when they are young, they will grow into bigger Problems as they get older. You see this with the Menendez brothers. They engaged in smaller crimes and the parents always intervened with the authorities and got them out of it. They stole, they cheated on tests, they never had to answer for any of it. You see how well that worked out for the parents there. I think the situation was similar with Charlie, HA allegedly got him through dental school, on the bump calls he talks about getting out of traffic tickets and Donna seems pleased, he talks about selling steroids, he tells Donna to fudge the car registration. I believe people don’t just start suddenly with large crimes, it builds as they don’t get caught.