GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #20

[Missyrocks5]

I don't agree that prosecutors are offering, or would ever offer, to reduce CA's jail time in exchange for testimony that WA knew what was going to happen.

CA made the murder happen, and he will be punished for that.

His sentence won't be reduced by crying that his Mummy and little sister made him do it.

JMO

I disagree. I think Georgia and the State want Wendi so badly. She is public enemy #1 to them. Wendi has been the only one in the family smart enough to keep her mouth shut and not create a digital trail so she's going to be a lot harder to get. She plotted out from the beginning to set up JL as a potential suspect, and also to float the idea that her brother did this behind her back to make her life simpler.

To prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, the state may make a decision that it is worth it to lessen Charlie's sentence, come up with something with Donna because she's old so giving her 10 years is still a life sentence, all to get Wendi and knock that smile off her face. That's JMO.

 

[Cedars]

Again, this is Charlie talking, after he has already been convicted. We don’t know what Rash actually told him, we don’t know how Charlie interpreted that, and we don’t know what Charlie wanted to hear, or how many ways Charlie might have asked Rash or pressured Rash to say what he wanted to hear. People hear what they want to hear, and people can be manipulative. Charlie in these calls is blaming everyone and everything but himself. This tirade against Rash is consistent with that type of behavior. I would take it with a grain of salt.

IMO CA, like every other criminal in jail, just never believed he'd get caught. If he'd been capable of imagining that - which most of us are - he'd never have gone ahead with his scheme. He had plenty of opportunities to change his mind and decide it wasn't worth the risk, but it was full steam ahead. Arrogance, I guess.

DA may have been confused that as long as she didn't know the people who did the killing, she couldn't be held responsible. That is a legal concept probably outside many people's understanding.

JMO

 

[IQuestion]

When I have something to tell you, I'll speak to Dan.

Understood, but given that he has just been convicted, i think it is more likely that he is replaying all of the evidence in his mind rather than using the call as some effort to script a defense for mom or wendi. i interpreted the call as a soliloquy on how all of these coincidences were used against him.

It is clear from the jail calls that Dan Rashbaum did not realistically evaluate the chances of winning this case and gave his client false hope. Dan R. no doubt worked very hard to defend his client, but he failed abysmally to explain the unlikelihood of an acquittal. In fact, he did the opposite and led CA to believe he would be walking out of jail. Like Katie, Charlie's counsel gave him fatal advice. According to CA, Dan R. kept telling him "I'm a closer" meaning he does great summations. Actually, I disagree -- his summation was a boring litany of the evidence witness by witness, instead of telling a compelling story. But even had he done a great summation, the best he could have hoped for was a hung jury.

Yep, it is easy to go "ALL IN" with someone else's life and money! There are no more hands to play, no more buy in's... DR was bluffing his dumb clients....he just didn't realize the jurors were not dumb!

Event 15: Daniel Rashbaum Out in 14th Place | Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood Poker

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[Cedars]

I disagree. I think Georgia and the State want Wendi so badly. She is public enemy #1 to them. Wendi has been the only one in the family smart enough to keep her mouth shut and not create a digital trail so she's going to be a lot harder to get. She plotted out from the beginning to set up JL as a potential suspect, and also to float the idea that her brother did this behind her back to make her life simpler.

To prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, the state may make a decision that it is worth it to lessen Charlie's sentence, come up with something with Donna because she's old so giving her 10 years is still a life sentence, all to get Wendi and knock that smile off her face. That's JMO.

I disagree that the legal system is morally vindictive. I believe that is how individuals would behave if we didn't have a legal system to punish the kind of moral vindictiveness that was behind the conspiracy to kill Dan Markel, to knock that stupid smile off his face.

 

[amicuscurie]

So on one of those calls shortly after the verdict, Charlie did ask, toward the end of the call, how Wendi is holding up. They told Charlie they were only talking to CA and DR to avoid telling him that Wendi was not replying to their texts, etc. They then texted Wendi saying CA is asking about you to get her to respond to her request for contact.

Just heard it. guess I was wrong, sorry

 

[Wishbone]

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I believe it's all part of the game that family is running. That they are still protecting WA because somebody has to be around to care for the “sunshines”. Especially now that they are “Adelsons”. They all know there were no coincidences. IMO if a cause can be defined,then usually there is no coincidence. And we all know what that “cause” would be......

 

[amicuscurie]

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My opinion is that it was engineered by DA and Ca, actually. And my opinion is also that there are too many coincidences.

 

[BearWatcher]

What could Georgia give? These calls are very helpful to that end. He wants to be a dad to his son, wants to see visitors in person, not behind a screen. He wants to be in a camp with other people that need safe, secure prison such as law enforcement who are inprisioned. That she could give if he provides information on Wendi. I don’t think he will give up his mom, but maybe would be willing to provide information on Wendi if he knew he could be safe, in a more like camp like environment that would allow him to be in physical contact with his son.

 

[amicuscurie]

What could Georgia give? These calls are very helpful to that end. He wants to be a dad to his son, wants to see visitors in person, not behind a screen. He wants to be in a camp with other people that need safe, secure prison such as law enforcement who are inprisioned. That she could give if he provides information on Wendi. I don’t think he will give up his mom, but maybe would be willing to provide information on Wendi if he knew he could be safe, in a more like camp like environment that would allow him to be in physical contact with his son.

From the beginning it seems to me that the state may have counted on one of the parties turNing on the other, breaking the case. It is my understanding that is often what happens in conspiracies/murder for hire schemes. Especially where there is not a lot of direct evidence for all of the parties, (only one of them is the actual shooter), this may be the best or only way to get enough for probable cause and conviction for the people who hired the killers. In my opinion, the state counted on this to its detriment. The only person who talked initially was Rivera. To me it looks like from the beginning they all had lawyers who were communicating with each other, and they all decided not to talk as long as the others weren’t talking. (I’m not saying that was a good idea, look at Katie). I don’t think the state counted on that. Thank goodness for the bump, for me the one thing the state had going for it seems to be that Donna, to me, has a tendency to say things she shouldn‘t. But I just don’t see either of them turning on Wendi right now, especially since they all seem to be represented by the same counsel. Perhaps now that Donna is in jail and can’t talk, this might change. But she can still get messages to Charlie through counsel. This is just my opinion, but I believe from the beginning that message has been “protect Wendi.” I think, but don’t know, that that was how Donna may have gotten Charlie to do this, to protect Wendi. The loyalty seems to me to be very strong with this family. Protecting Wendi, of course, may serve to protect Donna as well. Just my opinion. Wendi might, if she gets worried enough about her own situation, decide to talk.

 

[newbysleuther]

Another hot mic moment at the end of this call!

 

[clearskies1]

In a murder with this many people involved, there’s always a high risk that someone will turn state’s evidence, i.e., LR. But when it’s family, it takes a ton (maybe the possibility of the death penalty — which we know is not a factor now) to get someone to turn. Here it’s even harder because turning state’s evidence may mean you’ll need to turn on many family members.

Re Donna’s behavior post CA’s conviction: I think people become desperate and stop thinking rationally when they are under that much pressure. All JMO.

 

[Tanager]

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I think WA is guilty, and I am awash with sadness for the Markel family when I think of the cruelty of depriving them of their access to their grandchildren upon the death of their son. There is no part of me that thinks severing contact was necessary to maintain WA's right protect herself physically or legally. It was just vindictive, and that just shows us her priorities as a human.

If the hot mic calls are true, then she is similarly willing to be cruel to her family. She can call her brother without addressing the topic of the case. I think her calculation is that she is attempting to replicate a pattern of behavior that she would engage in if she felt her family might be guilty. She walks a fine line in this way, since she does not want implicate them in her communications while she is distancing herself. Right now, we only have DA's second hand relaying of this information, so this may not be 100% accurate information, too. Is it possible that WA is innocent? It is possible. I don't know if that rises to reasonable doubt.

However, if I were innocent, and I felt like my family was involved in the murder of my husband (Nothing to worry about here, Brian, we all love you!) then I would not misrepresent the facts in court. If WA were truly innocent, but she suspected that her family were involved, does it make sense for her to immediately go move to live with them? I would be devastated by the the betrayal and evilness of the act, even if I was mad at my ex.

If WA thinks her family is not involved, why would she not support Charlie with a loving gesture of contact upon his conviction? I guess she could also write him a letter, but sheesh. Think about how you would respond to your family if they were wrongfully accused. You'd be publically defending them, and lavishing them with support.

WA wants us to believe that she lives in a universe where her family is innocent, but she also suspects them because that casts suspicion away from her. So tricky.

Here is what I see as the strongest evidence against WA:
She communicated with DM about his schedule that day, and was super weird with JL about his schedule and their trip. I believe JL.

She engaged in the ridiculous TV repair nonsense. I will NEVER believe that her mother and brother needed to get involved in the world's most discussed TV repair that didn't happen. Look folks, either the repair was urgent enought to involve the whole family, or it was something that took weeks to resolve, not both. In for a TV, in for a murder is how I feel about this. DA's "This TV is 5" is really damning, and I don't see how WA could consent to the repair business if she was not involved. She'd toss the TV, and get herself a new one, or decide it was not important enough to worry about.

The bourbon plus murder scene trip, and inconsistencies in her account.

"This is sweet."

I think WA got talked into the plan, and she is resentful. That is the tone I see in DA's retelling of their communication. If DA's retelling is accurate, WA's, "I had nothing to do with it," etc sounds an awful lot like, "but you did, and you made me part of your mess." It is a weird thing to assert in a communication with your mother, even if you know the whole world is going to read it at some point.

 

[jennyjenny]

wow ... Donna has a real problem disconnecting her phone calls!!

eta: Bless her heart!!

 

[Tanager]

Or does she? Seems a bit convenient. It does ping the hinky meter.

I will admit that I do occasionally experience senior behavior when it comes to my phone, though. My pocket makes a few calls without my consent, and I can be dense about relatively basic phone functions. I can't say I've ever failed to hang up, though. Since there is a term for it, clearly, it happens. If it happens a 3rd time, I'm out on the coincidence-ness of it.

It is funny to think about the contortions they might be making to figure out how to imply that they are accidentally recorded, but also keep talking in a way to not implicate themselves.

 

[Ferpo]

From the beginning it seems to me that the state may have counted on one of the parties turNing on the other, breaking the case. It is my understanding that is often what happens in conspiracies/murder for hire schemes. Especially where there is not a lot of direct evidence for all of the parties, (only one of them is the actual shooter), this may be the best or only way to get enough for probable cause and conviction for the people who hired the killers. In my opinion, the state counted on this to its detriment. The only person who talked initially was Rivera. To me it looks like from the beginning they all had lawyers who were communicating with each other, and they all decided not to talk as long as the others weren’t talking. (I’m not saying that was a good idea, look at Katie). I don’t think the state counted on that.

Exactly. It is against human nature and unfathomable to do what KM did by voluntarily stayed locked up for six years, no matter what the supposed reasons were, including: (a) she was protecting SG and his appeal (b) her kids/family would have been threatened if she talked (c) her family was being paid off nicely for being quiet (d) her hotshot Miami attorneys convinced her 100% that she would be acquitted. Usually the co-conspirators break down and talk within days, and don't wait seven years later when they've been convicted (and even then it was a lukewarm confession with scant details).

I credit the State and FBI for being able to work around this major and unbelievable obstacle in getting to CA and DA.

 

[cottonweaver]

I can't keep up!
Is this the new call you're currently discussing? ( I haven't listened to this one either yet)

Another hot mic moment at the end of this call!

 

[newbysleuther]

I can't keep up!
Is this the new call you're currently discussing? ( I haven't listened to this one either yet)

Yep!

 

[Snacky]

Unless CA has something concrete he can offer, I don't know how valuable flipping on his sister will be. He can say, she knew about it, we discussed it, etc. but this would all be coming from a convicted, incarcerated felon who claimed there was a double extortion plot that kept him from going to the police. His credibility is zilch and I have no doubt WA's attorney would easily exploit this.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yep!

Thanks.

I have tried to copy the transcription & make it easier to read ( Faster than listening to it) This is just the hot-mic section.
WS-ers please feel free to correct this, if you heard different.

If we get time after the holidays, maybe we can collect together any transcriptions and summaries so that we have a ' Resources' thread ( standalone media thread) prior to Donna's trial.
@Ferpo did a great summary of another call recently.

IDK about you all, but discussing these calls is hard work, so might be useful to have a collection of call summaries or transcriptions which we can all copy, paste from, in the future

Sounds like Harvey was most concerned about Donna divulging any details to their associate Annie Cunningham and Donna didn't want to discuss anything ' personal' in front of Wendi's boyfriend George.


Jail Call 8 November 2023 - the hot-mic section:
From 57min:35s


CA ( still sobbing): listen, listen ,listen. Charlie …can you hear me?
Charlie? Charlie can you hear me? Charlie?…. it clicked off.. I ...it's cause it was an hour, yeah, he'll call me back.
HA: Inaudible

CA: ( serious tone) Okay you can make her aware now that the things that we need to discuss are private. if George wants to remain in the lobby he can but I have a lot of personal information that I need to give you . Call her! I mean, just say it. I don't care if she's holding up speaker. Say : George…. if if you need George to drive you you can you can, you know or I'll say it in a nice way.
HA: No… ( inaudible)
DA: I don't , I don't want to use this phone ....he's gonna call me back.
DA: what did she say? a little after eight?
HA : yeah

HA: ( mostly inaudible, HA is possibly calling George)
PAUSE
HA ( to George/Wendi?) ….inaudible…. I’ll meet you downstairs … inaudible
DA : yeah just tell her: let me know, let me know when you’re five minutes away.
HA yes he's gonna
DA yeah
HA: inaudible

HA - inaudible… is Charlie gonna call back?
DA um uh no I don't know I mean it just clicked off
HA - inaudible
DA - no because my daughter comes up I don't care what I wear and George is not coming in no problem and if we finish and she still would like to stay a little bit and have George come up I have no problem. it's just that everything I'm doing is personal with her so…no.
DA yeah I just I just said to Annie I'm on the phone with Charlie and I'll call you when I get off so I'm not going to call. … maybe I'll call her before Wendi comes.
…. all right. I'll call this... Charlie calls then I'm gonna get off so…
HA: Yeah

1:02:17
DA…so the things that we want is for him to…. Well ,we'll talk about in more detail later. tell her I thought it first you need to come here but I realize that you know most of everything we can do …….I’ll have to tell her we're leaving the country
HA: uhhhhh…
DA: they're not recording my phone. if they are… if they are…. they just ah… you know ….I mean what am I gonna do? I can't write it -they just don't put anything in writing. I can't …what…. am I supposed to do?
HA: um
DA: should I ?…..I can't …..so I'm supposed to call Dan? but that line is, that line….
I don't have a private line so they're going either hear me tell Dan to tell Call Annie or they're going to hear me tell Annie. they might as well hear me. I mean ,what's the option? Call Annie Cunningham ( Donna is telling her phone to dial)
HA: … don’t… details…..
CA:… no not necessary but I I'll tell her that there's business things that harvey wants to talk to Ron about and it involves….. it shouldn't be a whole lot of work but it's going to be some because he's going to need to able to contact the handy man… um ….check apartment numbers ,we'll give him all the information he needs he'll send Ron a picture of broken cabinets and Ron’ll l say yes go ahead and replace these ….. you know what I'm saying?
HA:… details ( inaudible)
DA : no I'm not going to tell her details I'll just say Harvey will talk to him later. Call Annie Cunningham……
DA & CA - Inaudible conversation: no no I don't know if he's going to get out of there …… shower?

1:04:23 Hot mic recording ends.

So Donna kept telling her phone to call Annie Cunningham not realising she was still being recorded on her call to LC jail. At some point here, at 1.04, she must realise it was a hot mic?

 

[minusfour]

The hot mic incident is so unbelievably, (yet I believe!) awful for this family. In another time, we might be concluding that the gods had turned their backs on the family. (In these times, I firmly believe that their luck has well and truly run out!)

The call reminds me of the unknown dynamics of the case. Up until now, it seemed to me that the family were totally united. Now CA and WA are estranged, DA's feeling frustration and distress about her and HA's relationship with WA, HA and DA are considering ending their lives. This seems to me to be quite the change in the united, strong family situation. I'm hoping, with everyone else, for some divided they fall type consequences.

I wonder what WA has told her son's about the estrangements within the family. I think this might be quite a problem/tipping point for her. They have-we presume- been told not to trust/believe their paternal grandparents, who they have had limited contact with. Their maternal grandparents are a different matter, they have grown up with them, seen how much they helped WA, and now must be watching what is going on with lots of questions. Good luck with that Wendi, and a not very happy Christmas to you.