GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[tlcya]

His lawyer will argue that is because he was unaware that someone had been hit since he was not aiming at anyone specifically. He fired and fled, but was not tring to shoot anyone. So the later reports came as a surprise to him.

If you got into an exchange of gunfire with someone after an argument you inititiated, would you go directly to the police? I think you would be pretty foolish if you did.

I'd go directly to the police! No doubt in my mind. You're asking for folks to suspect you of more otherwise, imho.

Moot for me. I honestly cannot answer because I would never initiate a confrontation with anyone over iritating music in a paking lot I was leaving momentarily anyway. The entire scenerio is ridiculous and would be laughable had someone not paid with their life.

I do strongly suspect alcohol was involved in amping this situation up and factored strongly in the shooter's actions both during and after the incident.

If I ever do shoot someone in self defense I will have no hesitation reporting it to LE immedtiately because you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be as evident to them as it was to me that I had no choice in using deadly force.

I strongly suspect that fleeing the scene and failing to report is directly related to a conciousness of guilt and an elevated blood alcohol level.

 

[LolaMoon08]

In war it is not unusual for soldiers to go through a battle not firing a single shot and thinking they had, because of the extreme stress and noise. Likewise when in a stress panic they can return fire to the sound of their own gunshots, thinking someone is shooting at them.

When you are placed in a situation where you percieve yourself to be in mortal danger and panic, with weapons involved, your perceptions of what is going on around you get highly distorted and may not be accurate.

I am trying really hard to follow your train of thought?

We are being told that there was no weapon, at least no gun, found in the car or on any of the teens. So, I will, at this time, go with what the police have found to be the facts of this case. So, Mr. Dunn was not some soldier in battle and I kind of find it a little offensive that he and the position he created for himself is being compared to that of soldiers in actual war.

Not trying to be mean or snarky. It's just my opinion.

 

[writer7]

I'm leaving room for the possibility that there was a shotgun. I'd need to know more. But I'm leaning heavily on suspecting the known gunman of murder because of his own actions.

I don't know beans about any of the people involved, except for the fleeing part and what the cops say they found or didn't. Oh, and it is rude to play music loudly, but my God. My brother better wear a bullet-proof vest everywhere he goes if that's worth being shot at (and he prefers Rap, btw, so he needs to be extra careful!).

 

[LolaMoon08]

I'm leaving room for the possibility that there was a shotgun. I'd need to know more. But I'm leaning heavily on suspecting the known gunman of murder because of his own actions.

I don't know beans about any of the people involved, except for the fleeing part and what the cops say they found or didn't. Oh, and it is rude to play music loudly, but my God. My brother better wear a bullet-proof vest everywhere he goes if that's worth being shot at (and he prefers Rap, btw, so he needs to be extra careful!).

Oh, I am leaving room for the possibility too. I've had multiple questions about shotguns (I know nothing about guns!), how they can be concealed in clothing to escape being seen on video, etc... because I am leaving open the possibility of there being a gun involved from the teens side.

However, because of the actions of Mr. Dunn, I will not take his word for it and will wait for police to finish their investigation. But, it is my opinion, that there is a reason why he was arrested, charged, and denied bail so swiftly.

I can only come to the conclusion that the teens and the accounts of other witnesses match up to what happened and why he is facing the charges he is facing now.

I am still holding off hope that there is video evidence.

 

[CatMama3]

Moot for me. I honestly cannot answer because I would never initiate a confrontation with anyone over iritating music in a paking lot I was leaving momentarily anyway. The entire scenerio is ridiculous and would be laughable had someone not paid with their life.

I do strongly suspect alcohol was involved in amping this situation up and factored strongly in the shooter's actions both during and after the incident.

If I ever do shoot someone in self defense I will have no hesitation reporting it to LE immedtiately because you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be as evident to them as it was to me that I had no choice in using deadly force.

I strongly suspect that fleeing the scene and failing to report is directly related to a conciousness of guilt and an elevated blood alcohol level.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post. A "thanks" wasn't enough.

And as far as his claim that he fled the scene immediately after the shooting because he was afraid of the occupants of the truck, it has one huge flaw.

He could have contacted LE at his hotel that night. He did return there and stay the entire night. Instead he high-tailed it out of town after seeing the news of the shooting and Davis's death. If he was such a "responsible gun owner", he should have contacted LE at that point. Self defense or SYG was still plausible until he left Jacksonsville.

 

[manzana]

White people get on the news for using SYG-type laws against white people, too, btw. Where was that case where the guy went over and shot his neighbor for having a loud party (all white folks)? He totally tried to set up a SYG defense, and the 911 call was so ridiculous. I think it was in Texas?

I'll try to find it if anyone is interested.

BBM
Wrong the shooter was Hispanic.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...bor-after-claiming-stand-your-ground-defense/

 

[Steely Dan]

I think the point that was being made was that you do not see white men following white kids and shooting them claiming self defense or white men shooting and killing white kids over loud music and claiming self defense.

Of course there are a lot of self defense cases that are very valid and they vary from race, age, social status, gender etc... There are also very clear cases where SYG is being used when it does not apply that vary as well.

What makes the two cases that are mentioned in this thread unique is the circumstances in which these two young boys were killed. Both boys were the ones confronted by their shooter in a threatening/angry manner by complete strangers who had no right to say two words to them as they were not hurting anyone or committing any crime. Unless we are to believe that violating a city ordinance on loud music deserves the death penalty in this case?

It will be interesting to see what happens in this case. I am very happy that Mr. Dunn has not been given bond because his actions directly after the shooting and the days after. He is most definitely a flight risk.

BBM

What she said.

I will agree that black teens are far more likely to kill other black teens for various and totally uncalled for reasons than for cases like these to happen, but I do not believe that is the point you are making? Just so I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that black teens kill middle-aged-white-men far, far more often and claim self defense afterwards?

This isn't aimed at you Lola it's just an observation of society in general. Like it or not there is a lot more racism in this country than anyone wants to admit. Most of it is whites on other races. JMO

For instance the confederate flag is the pride of the south to many people there, except blacks. To them it's the same as a Nazi flag. If it's brought up that it's an offensive symbol there's an outcry of southerners who support it. They have no clue how offensive it is to blacks, and they don't care to know. JMO

Lola do you really think this guy just opened fire and shot at these poor youths over loud music? Do you think he decided "Hey, some black youths in a car, I feel like killing one of them for no particular reason other than the fact I hate them and their music is too loud!"

I think something happened, threats were made, things escalated. I think maybe there was a weapon but if there was it won't be found, LE won't look all that hard for the weapon and the media won't report on any criminal records of the others in that car.

I also think based on what little info we have so far the guy is going to do some time for this.

I think the guy was drunk from the wedding, probably an :censored: when sober and a major :censored: when drunk. He didn't call the police immediately afterwords because he was drunk.

He skipped town when he sobered up and realized he'd killed someone without a good reason. JMO

Chances are pretty darn good some of the youths in that car had a criminal record that involved violence and or weapons. The defense attorney will sort that out. The shooter won't get off scott free though. He messed up.

Why are those chances good?

My question exactly too.

It depends on what we learn of Mr. Dunn as a person and about these teens as people? I don't know what Mr. Dunn's past is? Does he have a history of violence? Was alcohol involved? People go off the handle all the time for any amount of reasons? Was he fighting with his girlfriend? Was he already angry about something?

Of course I believe that words were exchanged. I would exchange words with someone who yelled at me in any way and I am a 33-year-old woman! Do I believe the teens had a gun? Not right now. I can not find any logical reason why Mr. Dunn would not call police, even after fleeing to a safer location if these teens had a gun??

But, like you said, we have very little information and there is a reason why a judge has decided that Mr. Dunn is to have no bond? Reasons we may not know about yet?

This is what we know so far, from media reports;

The guy was mad because the kids were playing their music too loud.

A kid was shot and killed by the man.

The man never went to the police to report the shooting.

The man left town as soon as he learned that he had killed someone.

The lawyer says that the kids had a sawed off shotgun.

The police never found a shotgun.

The lawyer is questioning whether the police searched the entire car.

Everything the guy did points to guilt a lot. IMO

Everything the lawyer is saying is stuff that sounds like pathetic excuse making for somebody without a fully thought out plausible story yet.

 

[~n/t~]

Let me get this straight. These teens were in their parked vehicle at a convenience store playing loud music and this dude shows up tells them the music is too loud, they then exchanged not so nice words and this guy takes out his weapon and shoots 9 rounds and kills one of the boys?

Been following this case on and off so I'm not up to all the details yet. My first thought is why in the world did it bother him that these teens were playing loud music? It's not like they were in front of his house or in his driveway for pete's sake. This is unbelievable. If anything, it should have been the store owner to tell them to cool it down.

I'll have to agree with those who speculate that he was drunk. Who does his attorney say had the shot gun? He fired 9 rounds at them and none as far as I know were shot from the teens. Sadly one kid was murdered but this could have been a massacre. My God.

 

[Gardenlady]

Good post Steely. You are right that no one wants to admit there is still rampant racism in this country. And whenever anyone tries to talk about it, they are shouted down or met with denials.

Racism isn't just denying someone a job or housing. It is the 1001 ways that people treat others, or make decisions based on assumptions and stereotypes. Like the assumption that "chances are good" that one of the kids in the car has a criminal record.

 

[Confusion]

Yes. A sawed off shotgun could be hidden in baggy pants.

I've seen some kids who wear their pants so baggy that they could probably hide half of their gun cabinet in them.

I never said they claim self defense. I said it is far more common and it NEVER makes the national news. There is no outrage or national news coverage or claims of racism when it happens, is there? When the reverse happens it is called "robbery" even if nothing was taken.

What would be the reverse, when a 50 year old black man shoots a car full of white teens, killing one, then runs off and calls it self defense? I've never heard of that happening and anybody calling it robbery. :waitasec:

 

[Reality Orlando]

I recently completed my concealed weapons permit class and now have my CCW permit. The instructor really spent a lot of time on what is and isn't SYG!

I have not bought a weapon yet cause when I do I want to know the gun inside and out on how to use. I do have an instructor just haven't made the time.

I mainly got the permit because of being SWF and the area I work in and have to drive to work in.

I got my CCW last year. Really spend some time checking out the different guns. If you have a small hand, look at some of the guns specifically designed for women. Makes a huge difference.

 

[Sonya610]

What would be the reverse, when a 50 year old black man shoots a car full of white teens, killing one, then runs off and calls it self defense? I've never heard of that happening and anybody calling it robbery. :waitasec:

Reverse the roles of killer and victim. A black teen shoots or stomps an older white man to death. That would not be national news and it is usually attributed to a robbery gone bad even if nothing is taken.

The R word is only screamed from the rooftops when a black teen is killed by a non-black, when it is the other way around it is a back page story.

 

[angelmom]

His lawyer will argue that is because he was unaware that someone had been hit since he was not aiming at anyone specifically. He fired and fled, but was not tring to shoot anyone. So the later reports came as a surprise to him.

If you got into an exchange of gunfire with someone after an argument you inititiated, would you go directly to the police? I think you would be pretty foolish if you did.

If I thought someone had pulled a gun on me first and I had shot back, I would be calling 911 before the smoke cleared. I would want to make sure that the gun and person holding it were captured, and would want to get my side of the story on the record ASAP.

Otherwise it's like leaving the scene of a car accident. There's no reason to do that unless you have done something wrong. Once you leave, the police will hear everyone's else's side of the story and come to their own conclusions.

I think the idea that the police didn't search the car is ludicrous. They probably tore it apart looking for a gun. It can't be far from their minds how another police department in another case was lambasted for not doing a more thorough investigation.

 

[Hatfield]

This case was on JVM last night which I watched.

JMO
The attorney for the guy said something important that probably only a video or witness could prove. She said the people in the vehicle where the kid was shot had left the scene after the shooting too, and then shortly came back.

If there is video to prove they drove away for a short time, then that would be more evidence that they probably left to dump the shotgun and possibly other items if they had anything else in their car like other guns, drugs, etc. So, we really need to see some video or some other witness that can prove that lawyer's claim that they left the scene too.

As far as why the guy went back to his motel and left, I do agree with some others that he was probably intoxicated as well and could not notify LE until he sobered up the next day. If LE interviews witnesses at the wedding, they could probably find people who can tell whether he drank more than just a sip and toast like the lawyer was trying to claim on JVM.

The whole thing is very sad and should never had happened. The guy should never have complained about the music because only bad things can happen, but I also dont understand why people like to play very loud music in public places either because it seems like that is asking for trouble too. People like to show off their loud stereos I suppose.

It is a very old issue and will never change because it has been going on for many years. For me personally, I go out of my way to avoid cars playing loud music like that just to avoid any possible confrontation. I am sure many of us have been at red light and had a car pull up next to us blaring a stereo. Typically, I will look away and act like it doesnt bother me and I dont hear it. Its like the people in the other car want to invoke a reaction from others. Usually a negative reaction too.

Again, a very old problem that has been around for years. In this sad case, it just happened to be the wrong type of person that pulled up next to them and the situation escalated into a tragedy. All beginning over loud music that started the situation. What a senseless tragedy. The person that pulled up needed to ignore it or never park near them to begin with. There is no way he could have expected them to say....."oh sorry for our loud music, I will turn it down now". Of course not. This is an age-old issue that I dont see changing.

A senseless tragedy.

 

[writer7]

BBM
Wrong the shooter was Hispanic.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...bor-after-claiming-stand-your-ground-defense/

That is the story! I didn't know he was Hispanic; I only saw him and didn't catch his name. That case is insane.

When folks say, 'Why would someone do that?' keep in mind stories like this. Motive doesn't have to be rational. Folks do a lot of violence because they are angry.

I loathe people who pull out guns in anger.

 

[tlcya]

I wholeheartedly agree with your post. A "thanks" wasn't enough.

And as far as his claim that he fled the scene immediately after the shooting because he was afraid of the occupants of the truck, it has one huge flaw.

He could have contacted LE at his hotel that night. He did return there and stay the entire night. Instead he high-tailed it out of town after seeing the news of the shooting and Davis's death. If he was such a "responsible gun owner", he should have contacted LE at that point. Self defense or SYG was still plausible until he left Jacksonsville.

Heck, for that matter if he feared he was in immediate danger he could have called LE from a cell phone as he drove back to the hotel, or driven to an area a mile down the road. Payphones do still exist if no phone was available.

Any responsible gun owner would know that even to discharge a firearm in a populated area would require a report to LE.

 

[LolaMoon08]

This case was on JVM last night which I watched.

JMO
The attorney for the guy said something important that probably only a video or witness could prove. She said the people in the vehicle where the kid was shot had left the scene after the shooting too, and then shortly came back.


A senseless tragedy.

How would the attorney for Mr. Dunn know that teens from the car had left the scene and came back shortly after? Based on Mr. Dunn's word? How would he know if he fled the scene himself?

I can see the kids running from gun shots flying at their heads. Who wouldn't try and run from some maniac unloading a weapon in the parking lot of a gas station. He's lucky he didn't hit a gas pump and the whole station went up in flames. I am sure there were other people running from the scene too. Not just the teens.

Honestly, if one of the teens had a shotgun, then why did he not fire back at the shooter? Mr. Dunn expects me to believe that these teens had the thought process to run and hide a gun, but not fire back at someone shooting at them?? Nope. Not buying it.

I really hope there is video.

 

[writer7]

Reverse the roles of killer and victim. A black teen shoots or stomps an older white man to death. That would not be national news and it is usually attributed to a robbery gone bad even if nothing is taken.

The R word is only screamed from the rooftops when a black teen is killed by a non-black, when it is the other way around it is a back page story.

It wouldn't be treated the same in the media if it were a White teen shooting a middle-aged Black man to death, either, unless there were more to it. White teens shoot middle-aged people of color all the time and it hardly makes the news. The night retail industry (like convenience stores) is one area I can think of off the top of my head where youths of all colors shoot older folks of all colors. It usually is robbery, actually, no matter the color.

What also exists that the news is trying hard to catch (for better or worse) is racist anger causing extreme violence. I don't find it surprising that in cases of SYG, the angry bigot (or angry neighbor) thinks he can take out someone he has been angry at for a long time anyway.

People understand robberies better than they understand being so angry at another person for their skin color. It's going to make the news. I'll certainly give credit that the news shouldn't be so quick to decide it was racism just because someone is white, though. I'm white! If I ever had to shoot a person of color, it sure as hell wouldn't be because of racist views, not even subtle ones.

 

[Isabelle]

His lawyer will argue that is because he was unaware that someone had been hit since he was not aiming at anyone specifically. He fired and fled, but was not tring to shoot anyone. So the later reports came as a surprise to him.

If you got into an exchange of gunfire with someone after an argument you inititiated, would you go directly to the police? I think you would be pretty foolish if you did.

I don't see how going to police is considered being foolish. Firing a gun into a vehicle containing people and leaving the scene/not calling police is the ultimate in stupidity and stupid should be very very painful!

 

[Isabelle]

Is there a photo of the vehicle showing where bullets penetrated the metal or glass? Thanks