FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #20

[Jazzmaster]

I guess the truth remains that Dale will continue to be the PRIME suspect until there is evidence to clear him. LE doesn't seem to be able to rule him out after having dozens of investigators examine their pile of evidence. If such evidence existed to clear Dale...I would imagine Dale would have been screaming from the rooftop and brought it forward in attempt to clear himself from being the FOCUS of the investigation. So until we see SUCH evidence, Dale will be considered guilty by most in the court of public opinion. JMO

 

[telemag]

What amazes me is that after thousands of man hours and almost seven months and naming Dale prime suspect almost from day one there seems to be nothing substantial as far as evidence to make an arrest? I am long past believing that they have something, but are just waiting.

 

[Thor]

I was referring to when Michelle first went missing. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would you need an attorney? I'm not following you...An innocent person answers LE questions and tries to help not hinder the investigation.

When becoming a suspect you certainly will want an attorney...that is common sense 101...my point was Dale had an opportunity to cooperate. He couldn't truthfully answer the questions IMO so he needed an attorney.

I'll refer to this paragraph in my comment:

- "Every statements anyone makes to the police can be interpreted in a different way that the way they meant it. Every piece of evidence, physical or circumstantial can be also interpreted in different ways."

In other words there are voluminous example in case law, where voluntary statements are misconstrued by the police, or as the police might say, correctly interpreted, and offered as evidence of guilt.

Also most people in this circumstances, regardless of guilt or innocence, tend to be nervous, worried, scared and so on, they are more likely then not to give contradictory statements, get confused about dates, places, time lines and so on. Generally, to give statements to the police while under emotional stress is not a good idea at all. Any inconsistency in your testimony can be very well misconstrued as a lie. Get an attorney, tell him the truth about what happened and let him speak on your behalf. Emotional detachment is key to a successful defense. Even attorneys generally do not represent themselves for that very reason.
That is apparently what Dale did and that might be the reason he is not in jail right now, regardless of whether he's innocent or guilty

and this:

- "To ask for counsel cannot be construed by a jury as an admission of guilt and one does not need to be guilty to ask for counsel."

and from that, one can also extrapolate this:

To invoke one's constitutional right to remain silent cannot be construed by a jury as an admission of guilt and one does not need to be guilty to invoke one's constitutional right to remain silent.

 

[Jazzmaster]

I'll refer to this paragraph in my comment:

- "Every statements anyone makes to the police can be interpreted in a different way that the way they meant it. Every piece of evidence, physical or circumstantial can be also interpreted in different ways."

In other words there are voluminous example in case law, where voluntary statements are misconstrued by the police, or as the police might say, correctly interpreted, and offered as evidence of guilt.

Also most people in this circumstances, regardless of guilt or innocence, tend to be nervous, worried, scared and so on, they are more likely then not to give contradictory statements, get confused about dates, places, time lines and so on. Generally, to give statements to the police under these circumstances is not a good idea at all. Any inconsistency in your testimony can be very well misconstrued as a lie. Get an attorney, tell him the truth about what happened and let him speak on your behalf. That is apparently what Dale did and that might be the reason he is not in jail right now, regardless of whether he's innocent or guilty

and this:

- "To ask for counsel cannot be construed by a jury as an admission of guilt and one does not need to be guilty to ask for counsel."

and from that, one can also extrapolate this:

To invoke one's constitutional right to remain silent cannot be construed by a jury as an admission of guilt and one does not need to be guilty to invoke one's constitutional right to remain silent.

Ok still why the need to be nervous if you have NO IDEA what happened? If you TRULY had no involvement you answer the questions to the best of your ability and move on. The problem IMO was Dale told many lies while being questioned, his mannerisms and behaviors also probably tipped LE off that Dale was being less than honest. When LE pressured Dale to get the truth, he caved and got an attorney...why did TM show up here in Orlando to help then leave as quickly as he could after weighing the evidence and what was taking place? The only thing keeping Dale from jail is...like far too many of these cases...the perp knows how to cover their tracks. As a lifelong criminal and possible help from his fellow family of criminals, Dale is probably pretty darn good at hiding evidence....Just saying!

 

[telemag]

Ok still why the need to be nervous if you have NO IDEA what happened? If you TRULY had no involvement you answer the questions to the best of your ability and move on. The problem IMO was Dale told many lies while being questioned, his mannerisms and behaviors also probably tipped LE off that Dale was being less than honest. When LE pressured Dale to get the truth, he caved and got an attorney...why did TM show up here in Orlando to help then leave as quickly as he could after weighing the evidence and what was taking place? The only thing keeping Dale from jail is...like far too many of these cases...the perp knows how to cover their tracks. As a lifelong criminal and possible help from his fellow family of criminals, Dale is probably pretty darn good at hiding evidence....Just saying!

What lies are you reffering too?

 

[hon3yb33]

What lies are you reffering too?

I also would like to know because in the few "news" articles I have not heard of all these lies.

 

[Thor]

Ok still why the need to be nervous if you have NO IDEA what happened? If you TRULY had no involvement you answer the questions to the best of your ability and move on. The problem IMO was Dale told many lies while being questioned, his mannerisms and behaviors also probably tipped LE off that Dale was being less than honest. When LE pressured Dale to get the truth, he caved and got an attorney...why did TM show up here in Orlando to help then leave as quickly as he could after weighing the evidence and what was taking place? The only thing keeping Dale from jail is...like far too many of these cases...the perp knows how to cover their tracks. As a lifelong criminal and possible help from his fellow family of criminals, Dale is probably pretty darn good at hiding evidence....Just saying!

I have no idea what lies he has told to the police and if any. I have no idea whether is guilty or innocent, I am aware of no evidence that points to his guilt other then second or third or fourth or fifth hand accounts about stuff never confirmed or denied by the authorities, general hearsay, and opinions of all kinds and colors.

I do not like Dale anymore then you do, truth be told I suspect he probably did have something to do with Michelle Parker disappearance giving his history of violence and criminality, however accusing somebody, even Dale of murder, without tangible evidence strikes me as an exercise in futility and downright embarrassing for me should it turn out he's innocent as innocent he might very well be.

I do lots of research in my field and I check my facts one time, then I recheck them again, then I ask somebody else why they think I am wrong, and then I recheck my facts yet one more time. That is why people trust me and respect me (I think!). Facts and evidence are my bread and butter and I will never trade them for speculations and guesses period. Sometimes there is also a place for speculation and guesses, but they can only serve as a starting point for an hypothesis, an idea if you will, but never as an end onto themselves.

In other words, it is ok to speculate whether he did it or not (hypothesis) but one needs evidence to make a conclusion (opinion). It is counterproductive to have first a conclusion (opinion) then to look for corroborating evidence (hypothesis) to fit that conclusion That is generally the equivalent of putting the cart before the horse. It would never work and I would get nowhere.

 

[nobodynoz]

I think you would be right that fingerprints on her cell would be physical, direct, forensics evidence, and not just circumstantial.

If Dale's fingerprints were found on the cell phone, and if it can be proven that Dale and Michelle never had reason to come in close physical contact, than this would be a damming piece of physical evidence against Dale.

Unfortunately this as just about every other so called evidence, comes from who knows where and who knows who.

I was attempting to say (perhaps not well ) that circumstantial evidence is as valid and useful for a conviction as any other sort of evidence. I wasn't trying to say what is or isn't physical evidence.

Dale's fingerprints on Michelle's cell phone (and this is entirely hypothetical, so I don't want anyone new who is reading to assume we know that LE found his fingerprints on her phone) would be circumstantial, since the presence of his fingerprints there wouldn't confirm that he had murdered Michelle.

If that were the only evidence available, he could, for instance, argue that Michelle had set her cell phone on a table in his condo when she brought the twins inside, and he had picked it up to hand it back to her when she was leaving.

But if the fingerprint evidence were combined with other circumstantial evidence, then such an explanation as in the previous paragraph might be less convincing in court.

 

[nobodynoz]

Many years ago a guy I knew got into some trouble because he had supplied some friends who were underage with some beer. The problem was they DA tried to charge him with a lot more than just that. They asked him to take a lie detector test which he had actually volunteed to take before he was asked as he was 100% sure he would pass. Well, the "test" was deemed inconclusive. He ended up paying for his own test and he passed. He was never changed with anything other than contributing to a minor. I remember him telling me and this was many years ago so I will not be able to give you his exact words, that the guy who gave him the test said that many times when you take these tests that are set up by LE that they can be interpreted in such a way that if it looks like you are telling the truth they can skew the test to make it look inconclusive. This is done by asking certain question that really don't have a yes or no answer. Lie detector tests are not black and white. If they were there would be a lot less court trials.

I talked about this in an earlier thread, but can't resist repeating it here:

Check out a true crime book called Finding Amy. Actually, I don't recommend it, because I feel it isn't that good, but just for the sake of an anecdotal story about polygraphs, the beginning of this book is quite surprising.

A young woman, Amy, disappeared (her body was ultimately found some time later). LE convinced their first POI to take a polygraph--and he "failed" it! Turns out he had nothing whatsoever to do with Amy's disappearance.

 

[Thor]

I talked about this in an earlier thread, but can't resist repeating it here:

Check out a true crime book called Finding Amy. Actually, I don't recommend it, because I feel it isn't that good, but just for the sake of an anecdotal story about polygraphs, the beginning of this book is quite surprising.

A young woman, Amy, disappeared (her body was ultimately found some time later). LE convinced their first POI to take a polygraph--and he "failed" it! Turns out he had nothing whatsoever to do with Amy's disappearance.

There is also lots and lots of searchable empirical evidence supporting your point. That is why polygraphs are not admissible in court .

 

[Thor]

I was attempting to say (perhaps not well ) that circumstantial evidence is as valid and useful for a conviction as any other sort of evidence. I wasn't trying to say what is or isn't physical evidence.

Dale's fingerprints on Michelle's cell phone (and this is entirely hypothetical, so I don't want anyone new who is reading to assume we know that LE found his fingerprints on her phone) would be circumstantial, since the presence of his fingerprints there wouldn't confirm that he had murdered Michelle.

If that were the only evidence available, he could, for instance, argue that Michelle had set her cell phone on a table in his condo when she brought the twins inside, and he had picked it up to hand it back to her when she was leaving.

But if the fingerprint evidence were combined with other circumstantial evidence, then such an explanation as in the previous paragraph might be less convincing in court.

You are right of course, that is why I said " ... and if it can be proven that Dale and Michelle never had reason to come in close physical contact ..."

If they did have a reason, then it could potentially be circumstantial evidence. Although I am not an attorney and evidenciary rules are not my forte. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Okay then]

OT/ Reading this thread...I feel like I am already in a courtroom observing a trial. jmo

 

[nobodynoz]

Nobody comes clean by taking and passing a lie detector test. Lie detector tests do not exonerate suspects, and Police would never agree to not prosecute based on lie detector results.

What 42 minutes did Dale erase? And when did the Police alleged he lied? Can you please point me to any public record to that effect?

BBM


Thor, here's where I believe the 42 minutes in question come into play.

At the beginning, when Michelle was first missing, Dale told Michelle's family (and perhaps LE, since he was "cooperating" with them at the beginning) that Michelle had brought the twins to the condo at 4 PM, had stayed about 10 minutes (so until 4:10 PM) and then left. Dale said that he himself left to drive with the twins to his parents' house on Rose right when Michelle left.

But subsequently, the condo neighbor's surveillance camera footage revealed that Michelle's Hummer had arrived at the condo at 3:18 PM, not 4 PM. Dale's attorney, MN, told us that an eyewitness confirmed Dale's arrival at the house on Rose at 4:30 PM.

The mysterious 42 minutes are those from 3:28 PM (which is ten minutes past the confirmed arrival time of Michelle's Hummer at condo) to Michelle's original alleged departure time of 4:10 PM. Remember, Dale supposedly left for Rose Ave. right when Michelle left.

It doesn't take from 3:28 PM to 4:30 PM to drive from the condo to the Rose Ave. house.

I apologize that I am not providing links for the above right now. They have been posted a number of times, but that isn't a valid excuse! I'm just so tired right now--will try to post some later. Or if someone else here has them handy...

 

[katydid23]

OT/ Reading this thread...I feel like I am already in a courtroom observing a trial. jmo

I think you are. Feels to me like the defense has sent in some forces already.

 

[Thor]

BBM


Thor, here's where I believe the 42 minutes in question come into play.

At the beginning, when Michelle was first missing, Dale told Michelle's family (and perhaps LE, since he was "cooperating" with them at the beginning) that Michelle had brought the twins to the condo at 4 PM, had stayed about 10 minutes (so until 4:10 PM) and then left. Dale said that he himself left to drive with the twins to his parents' house on Rose right when Michelle left.

But subsequently, the condo neighbor's surveillance camera footage revealed that Michelle's Hummer had arrived at the condo at 3:18 PM, not 4 PM. Dale's attorney, MN, told us that an eyewitness confirmed Dale's arrival at the house on Rose at 4:30 PM.

The mysterious 42 minutes are those from 3:28 PM (which is ten minutes past the confirmed arrival time of Michelle's Hummer at condo) to Michelle's original alleged departure time of 4:10 PM. Remember, Dale supposedly left for Rose Ave. right when Michelle left.

It doesn't take from 3:28 PM to 4:30 PM to drive from the condo to the Rose Ave. house.

I apologize that I am not providing links for the above right now. They have been posted a number of times, but that isn't a valid excuse! I'm just so tired right now--will try to post some later. Or if someone else here has them handy...

No need to apologize of course, thank you for the input, if these are really facts in dispute, these are the kind of stuff that people can wrap their mind around it. I too am way too tired to even ponder about them at this time. Later I suppose.

 

[Thor]

Ok still why the need to be nervous if you have NO IDEA what happened? If you TRULY had no involvement you answer the questions to the best of your ability and move on. The problem IMO was Dale told many lies while being questioned, his mannerisms and behaviors also probably tipped LE off that Dale was being less than honest. When LE pressured Dale to get the truth, he caved and got an attorney...why did TM show up here in Orlando to help then leave as quickly as he could after weighing the evidence and what was taking place? The only thing keeping Dale from jail is...like far too many of these cases...the perp knows how to cover their tracks. As a lifelong criminal and possible help from his fellow family of criminals, Dale is probably pretty darn good at hiding evidence....Just saying!

"... still why the need to be nervous ..."

People don't "need" to be nervous they simply get nervous. Nervousness is a condition generally brought about by stress.
Here is one opinion why people get nervous ...

"Nervous is synonymous to apprehensive, distressed, disturbed or just plain concerned. A person gets nervous because of a trigger. The trigger could be something that the concerned person knows will make them hurt, embarrassed or uncomfortable. A popular example is getting nervous about speaking in front of an audience. Even if you search about being nervous on the internet, it will most likely show you are searching related to getting nervous about making a speech. The trigger is stress." Click here for more

 

[katydid23]

No need to apologize of course, thank you for the input, if these are really facts in dispute, these are the kind of stuff that people can wrap their mind around it. I too am way too tired to even ponder about them at this time. Later I suppose.

THose are indeed the facts in dispute. It is very simple, but hard to get past. She dropped off her children, as seen in the video, and disappears into thin air.

No video of her big hummer with the window ads seen leaving '10 minutes later' as he claims.

And she did not follow her normal pattern, which is to call and speak to her son who was home alone. According to him they ALWAYS spoke to each other when he was coming home so she knew he was home safely. So if she did just drive away from Dale's and 'go shopping', then why didn't she reply to her 12 yr old son's text? I can tell you as a mother, that when your young kid is home alone, you ALWAYS respond to their texts and calls.

 

[Thor]

THose are indeed the facts in dispute. It is very simple, but hard to get past. She dropped off her children, as seen in the video, and disappears into thin air.

No video of her big hummer with the window ads seen leaving '10 minutes later' as he claims.

And she did not follow her normal pattern, which is to call and speak to her son who was home alone. According to him they ALWAYS spoke to each other when he was coming home so she knew he was home safely. So if she did just drive away from Dale's and 'go shopping', then why didn't she reply to her 12 yr old son's text? I can tell you as a mother, that when your young kid is home alone, you ALWAYS respond to their texts and calls.

Ok, this is something I need to really research and I can't do it right now, I will take your word that this are facts on record and I will check them later.

Some questions though pop in my mind:

1. If she was driving did she have her cell phone in her purse? In my experience phone calls rings are much louder then text messages beeps.

2. What kind of text message ringtone did she use for text messages? A beep is usually much softer then say a song or a bell.

3. Did she have her text message alerts set to keep beeping at periodic intervals or just once?

In your opinion is it possible and/or plausible that she did not hear the alert? Car motor noise, side windows down, radio on, traffic noise etc... etc ... and if not, why?

Very interesting though.

 

[vibert]

Ok still why the need to be nervous if you have NO IDEA what happened? If you TRULY had no involvement you answer the questions to the best of your ability and move on. The problem IMO was Dale told many lies while being questioned, his mannerisms and behaviors also probably tipped LE off that Dale was being less than honest. When LE pressured Dale to get the truth, he caved and got an attorney...why did TM show up here in Orlando to help then leave as quickly as he could after weighing the evidence and what was taking place? The only thing keeping Dale from jail is...like far too many of these cases...the perp knows how to cover their tracks. As a lifelong criminal and possible help from his fellow family of criminals, Dale is probably pretty darn good at hiding evidence....Just saying!

Where I'm from you don't talk to the police period let alone when they are investigating you. They find a way to twist things around. They will find a way to get a conviction to make them look good and help the DA get re-elected. Many, many people feel this way.

I don't blame anyone for telling police as little as possible to get them to leave as fast as possible.

I can only imagine how ds would feel with his criminal history. Of course he did not say much before getting a lawyer. Any smart man would have done the same thing.

 

[katydid23]

Ok, this is something I need to really research and I can't do it right now, I will take your word that this are facts on record and I will check them later.

Some questions though pop in my mind:

1. If she was driving did she have her cell phone in her purse? In my experience phone calls rings are much louder then text messages beeps.

2. What kind of text message ringtone did she use for text messages? A beep is usually much softer then say a song or a bell.

3. Did she have her text message alerts set to keep beeping in periodic intervals or just once?

In your opinion is it possible that she did not hear the alert? Car motor noise, windshield down, radio on, traffic noise etc... etc ...

Very interesting though.

She had recently given her 12 yr old his own phone, solely to keep track of him because he was in a new school, and walked home alone from the bus.

So their 'rule' was that he had to call or text when he got off the bus to tell her he was on the way home, and to tell her also when he arrived. Usually she would be arriving home about the same time, and spend time with him while she got ready for her night shift.

So it does not matter, imo, if she did or did not hear his text. She KNEW that every day at the same time they would be in touch with each other. A single working mom is well aware of the time her kids are arriving home from school, especially if they are walking alone.

So no matter what type of ring tone she had, no matter where she was, she would have checked in with him at the regular time. And the fact that she didn't, makes me believe she was already 'out of commission' within a short time of her arrival at Dale's. If she really did drive out of the condo on her own, then she would have communicated with her son, and told him she was 'going shopping.' JMO