France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

[Satchie]

FYI: The shooter RAN OUT OF BULLETS so he hit the girl instead of shooting her again. There is no indication that he planned to keep her alive. There is no indication of child abuse, nor has the shooter been considered a child predator.

I agree: He could certainly have taken her away, he chose to leave her behind.

IMO, this killer was completely obsessed with leaving no witnesses whatever. IMO that was the priority: kill everyone. That leads me to think, it's unlikely he would then expose himself/ a vehicle, to witnesses near the scene, and may well have walked away.

I wonder whether police have been too focussed on vehicles, not appreciating that this is, predominantly, a hiking area. I wonder whether they tried tracking dogs, etc, in the early hours.

JMO

 

[ZaZara]

EXCLUSIVE - Chevaline killing: The anger live in "Crimes" this noon of the lawyer of the biker who was placed in police custody: "We came close to a dramatic judicial error!" - VIDEO


This lunchtime, Jean-Christophe Basson-Larbi, the lawyer of the biker who was taken into custody, was the exclusive guest on the daily show "Crimes et faits divers" on NRJ12.

"My client was more than devastated [when he was taken into custody]. The skies had fallen on his head because this is a man who, since 2015, has responded to all the requests of investigators, has made himself available to contribute to the manifestation of the truth. This is a man who was present at the simulation last September. Without explaining anything to him, they turned him from a witness who helps the justice system to do its job into the number one suspect, and even the only suspect," he began angrily on the set of the programme.

He added: "This police custody is about a man who has already told us everything. Since he has said everything, he is even more vulnerable than all the suspects who are in police custody. We came very close to a judicial error. Perhaps the greatest judicial error of the last twenty years."

"If this man's name had ever been revealed - this risk still exists - imagine what his life would have been like! If this man had not trusted me, I say that this man might be in prison now. The director of the investigation explained to my client that their opinion had totally changed between the moment they placed him in custody and the moment they told him that his custody was over," the lawyer continued, specifying that "for the justice system, there were reasons that justified this placement in custody."

"If my client had not followed my defence strategy and trusted me, he would probably be in prison as we speak (...) My client does not remember having crossed paths with a cyclist. He is not sure of anything. My client has not seen a crime scene," the biker's lawyer explained. He pointed out that, for him, the sketch circulating "does not resemble my client, there is no resemblance at all."


BBM

That is one very angry lawyer in the video. They brought him in to make him crack!
The interviewer JMM says that the biker passed the future location of the crime, went down hill and crossed the cyclist who 2 minutes later came upon that crime scene, and the crime cannot have happened in 2 minutes!
The lawyer goes BOOM! and replies that the system relies on testimonies of people and what they remember, and that the margin of error is wide.
JMM:... and he hasn't seen his robot picture for two years...
Lawyer: .... well I defend this man and this morning is the first time that I have seen this picture!
Lawyer also mentions - if I hear it well- that the biker wasn't asked about the noise or the sound of bullets
Also, the helmet is NOT the helmet this man had in 2012.

JMM: are you saying that in your opinion there must have been another biker [resembling the robot picture]?
Lawyer has no idea, only knows that the picture is 'a biker', but not his client. I do not know the files, so I am not going to speak about them. But there are a lot of hypothesis, and that is dangerous.

Legal aspects of the 'garde à vue' are discussed with another lawyer.

 

[MrsWatson]

Such a mysterious case, and so far, so very random as to not be random.

I hope the girls are doing well.

Why did they have to arrest the motorcyclist instead of just asking him to come in for another statement?

 

[Ellmau]

Maybe he was uncooperative?

 

[5W's]

FYI: The shooter RAN OUT OF BULLETS so he hit the girl instead of shooting her again. There is no indication that he planned to keep her alive. There is no indication of child abuse, nor has the shooter been considered a child predator.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge the killer/s motive. No, IMO the killer kept the child alive, yes bullets could have run out. But if bullets ran out then I can see a different crime scene. For example, killer left the child to the last, what was the reasoning for this. In my mind it doesn't add up. If bullets ran out, then family members would also get out of the car to run away like the child did or at least bring the child back to the car so all could get away from the killer/s. The cyclist may have also tried to help. So IMO if bullets ran out the scene would look different. The child got out of the car or was outside already when the killer started the carnage. In media reports it says the driver was trying to get away as the car was put into a certain gear for speed so the shooter had already started the carnage before it was put into that gear. Obviously the gun or guns used would have to have so many bullets in them. If bullets ran out then the killer shot very precisely so that none were wasted. The killer had the firepower to kill the child instantly. If the child was pistol whipped then bullets were not running out. So something doesn't add up in the killer's motivation when it comes to the child.

 

[5W's]

I agree: He could certainly have taken her away, he chose to leave her behind.

IMO, this killer was completely obsessed with leaving no witnesses whatever. IMO that was the priority: kill everyone. That leads me to think, it's unlikely he would then expose himself/ a vehicle, to witnesses near the scene, and may well have walked away.

I wonder whether police have been too focussed on vehicles, not appreciating that this is, predominantly, a hiking area. I wonder whether they tried tracking dogs, etc, in the early hours.

JMO

I agree the killer didn't want to leave any witnesses thus the overkill. IMO the killer left the child alive because after beating her and shooting her in the shoulder the killer thought the child would die after all of this. And also after pistol whipping her possibly many times the shards of ground would bother her as well possibly strike her (the shards) so after all this the killer may have thought the child is dying so I can get out of here now. Taking the bloodied child may create its own problems such as having to kill more witnesses. IMO the whole thing is extremely disturbing but especially in regards to the child.

 

[Tintenbar]

I don't think you're going to the Martinet car park at the end of this small forest road in the Combe d'Iré by chance. You take this road if you go for a bike ride or if you want to go hiking, but you don't go there at the wheel of a BMW 5 series Estate, especially since this road has no exit being given that the road is then reserved for local residents and forest services. There is nothing special for children to visit. So what was this family doing in this cul-de-sac? So I think someone had arranged to meet this family at this exact location.
Another question: Why did this family come for 3 years on vacation to this place? Why did they leave the "Village Camping Europa" campsite after two days when they had booked for a week? Why did they settle in another campsite located 2.3 km away? Who was the visitor in costume with whom the father of the family would have had a lively discussion in the campsite?

 

[Skigh]

Also why did they suddenly plan a holiday in France at the end of the school summer holidays which would mean the girls would miss the beginning of the new school term.

 

[ZaZara]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge the killer/s motive. No, IMO the killer kept the child alive, yes bullets could have run out. But if bullets ran out then I can see a different crime scene. For example, killer left the child to the last, what was the reasoning for this. In my mind it doesn't add up. If bullets ran out, then family members would also get out of the car to run away like the child did or at least bring the child back to the car so all could get away from the killer/s. The cyclist may have also tried to help. So IMO if bullets ran out the scene would look different. The child got out of the car or was outside already when the killer started the carnage. In media reports it says the driver was trying to get away as the car was put into a certain gear for speed so the shooter had already started the carnage before it was put into that gear. Obviously the gun or guns used would have to have so many bullets in them. If bullets ran out then the killer shot very precisely so that none were wasted. The killer had the firepower to kill the child instantly. If the child was pistol whipped then bullets were not running out. So something doesn't add up in the killer's motivation when it comes to the child.

The RESULTS of the INVESTIGATION sofar are that the father and the eldest daughter were already out of the car, the cyclist was shot first, the father and daughter tried to return to the car, they were both shot but the father managed to get into the car. He tried to reverse, the car got stuck and the persons in the car were shot through the windows. With exception of the youngest daughter, who was hidden by her mother under her skirt on the floor of the car.
The shooter runs out of bullets, the girl outside the car is not dead yet so he whips her with his pistol. It is a small miracle that she survived.

All info on this thread.

If you have any MSM sources about the killer being a child predator, please post them.

 

[ZaZara]

I don't think you're going to the Martinet car park at the end of this small forest road in the Combe d'Iré by chance. You take this road if you go for a bike ride or if you want to go hiking, but you don't go there at the wheel of a BMW 5 series Estate, especially since this road has no exit being given that the road is then reserved for local residents and forest services. There is nothing special for children to visit. So what was this family doing in this cul-de-sac? So I think someone had arranged to meet this family at this exact location.
Another question: Why did this family come for 3 years on vacation to this place? Why did they leave the "Village Camping Europa" campsite after two days when they had booked for a week? Why did they settle in another campsite located 2.3 km away? Who was the visitor in costume with whom the father of the family would have had a lively discussion in the campsite?

BBM


Eeeh what...? Les Martinets is a parking space and any type of car can go there. The family went to the mountains because the daughter had wanted to go there, instead of go shopping in town.

Once again, a video of the location:

 

[5W's]

The RESULTS of the INVESTIGATION sofar are that the father and the eldest daughter were already out of the car, the cyclist was shot first, the father and daughter tried to return to the car, they were both shot but the father managed to get into the car. He tried to reverse, the car got stuck and the persons in the car were shot through the windows. With exception of the youngest daughter, who was hidden by her mother under her skirt on the floor of the car.
The shooter runs out of bullets, the girl outside the car is not dead yet so he whips her with his pistol. It is a small miracle that she survived.

All info on this thread.

If you have any MSM sources about the killer being a child predator, please post them.

I see what you are saying. Even if the father/ daughter were out of the car and cyclist shot first that doesn't take away from the fact that the child was brutalized and obviously the last person to be dealt with by the killer. Why waste time beating the child and pistol whipping many times why not just shoot kill and get it over with and be on one's way so no one shows up and another potential problem starts that has to be dealt with. I don't know but IMO this aspect has been overlooked or LE isn't saying. I understand that the family was shot through the windows of the car as I have seen some photos of the brutal scene. The father tried to drive out but was unsuccessful. For whatever reason the the child and father were ouside of the car as the carnage was beginning (perhaps) or were alarmed by what the killer had just said or shown so the father ran back into the car while he child was still outside (in his rush and fear the father lost track of the child's whereabouts.) Perhaps that's when the carnage started as the father was trying to drive away and the cyclist happens to cycle by unfortunately. I just can't help but see this with the child in mind.

 

[5W's]

I don't think you're going to the Martinet car park at the end of this small forest road in the Combe d'Iré by chance. You take this road if you go for a bike ride or if you want to go hiking, but you don't go there at the wheel of a BMW 5 series Estate, especially since this road has no exit being given that the road is then reserved for local residents and forest services. There is nothing special for children to visit. So what was this family doing in this cul-de-sac? So I think someone had arranged to meet this family at this exact location.
Another question: Why did this family come for 3 years on vacation to this place? Why did they leave the "Village Camping Europa" campsite after two days when they had booked for a week? Why did they settle in another campsite located 2.3 km away? Who was the visitor in costume with whom the father of the family would have had a lively discussion in the campsite?

I don't say that perhaps the family was not going to possibly meet someone by a prior arrangement and maybe no digital trail was left by this individual that police could track and even perhaps the father but what the family didn't know possibly was what kind of individual they were meeting up with. That's a possibiliy IMO. The family may have innocently trusted this individual and didn't realize what the individual was really like. Maybe for the person who arranged the meeting it was all upfront and nothing to fear, but the individual had other intentions. But it still doesn't resolve the issue of overkill and the brutalization of the child. This individual liked the violence they committed. And if more witnesses happened to come by then the killer would have nonchalantly killed them as well without giving it another thought. These aspects shouldn't be overlooked IMO. So what was the motivation for the killer was it really anything other than violence, that's my question here.

 

[ZaZara]

I see what you are saying. Even if the father/ daughter were out of the car and cyclist shot first that doesn't take away from the fact that the child was brutalized and obviously the last person to be dealt with by the killer. Why waste time beating the child and pistol whipping many times why not just shoot kill and get it over with and be on one's way so no one shows up and another potential problem starts that has to be dealt with. I don't know but IMO this aspect has been overlooked or LE isn't saying. I understand that the family was shot through the windows of the car as I have seen some photos of the brutal scene. The father tried to drive out but was unsuccessful. For whatever reason the the child and father were ouside of the car as the carnage was beginning (perhaps) or were alarmed by what the killer had just said or shown so the father ran back into the car while he child was still outside (in his rush and fear the father lost track of the child's whereabouts.) Perhaps that's when the carnage started as the father was trying to drive away and the cyclist happens to cycle by unfortunately. I just can't help but see this with the child in mind.

The very simple conclusion may be that after shooting everyone and running out of bullets, the perp realized that the eldest daughter was still alive, and having no bullets left, he whipped her with his pistol.

After that, IMO, the perp disappeared into the woods and that is the sole reason that Brett Martin, the British cyclist, survived the massacre when he arrived on the spot minutes later. It crossed his mind at the time that someone might be hiding in the woods, and he is probably reminded of it every now and then.

As for the girl, both girls, I don't want to speculate. I hope they are doing fine and for their sake, I hope that this case is resolved beyond a doubt one day.

 

[ZaZara]

I don't say that perhaps the family was not going to possibly meet someone by a prior arrangement and maybe no digital trail was left by this individual that police could track and even perhaps the father but what the family didn't know possibly was what kind of individual they were meeting up with. That's a possibiliy IMO. The family may have innocently trusted this individual and didn't realize what the individual was really like. Maybe for the person who arranged the meeting it was all upfront and nothing to fear, but the individual had other intentions. But it still doesn't resolve the issue of overkill and the brutalization of the child. This individual liked the violence they committed. And if more witnesses happened to come by then the killer would have nonchalantly killed them as well without giving it another thought. These aspects shouldn't be overlooked IMO. So what was the motivation for the killer was it really anything other than violence, that's my question here.

How could the family have planned to meet someone up in the mountains if they left the choice of where to go to the eldest daughter? She could have gone shopping in town, but SHE chose the mountains.

What you say about the killer rings a bell, but for him to enjoy violence, he would not need an appointment, a chance encounter would do.

 

[Satchie]

I'm comfortable with the idea the family took that road just to sightsee.

Possibly the father and daughter would have walked a little way up the trail to explore, looked for a picnic table or a view, so forth, while the women/toddler waited in the car.

The holiday camp is a 4 star family resort, with the spectacular view of the alps, the ability to cook your own meals, lake close by, not very crowded in September. Probably the family liked being outdoors, rather than in a hotel.
Holiday rental at Camping Europa - Lakeside Annecy

When you've got young kids, it's nice to go back to the same place. My family did something similar every year, always went to the same beach and semi-camped.

ETA And when a busy father/husband takes a family holiday, IMO he is 100% a family man. He's enjoying rare alone time with his wife and kids. He'd be a real #%%¥ if he was using that time to strike up business deals or make assignations with strangers. No more than his wife would be leaving her family in the car while she did some under-the-table dentistry.

 

[ZaZara]

CHEVALINE | TUERIE DE 2012 : « Un gars qui voulait faire un carton ! » pour Dominique Rizet

PODCAST

CHEVALINE | 2012 Massacre: "A guy who wanted to have a go (on the rifle range)" according to Dominique Rizet

A few hours after the motorcyclist was released from police custody, Dominique Rizet, expert consultant on police and judicial matters for BFM TV and columnist for the programme Faites entrer l'accusé, comments on the Chevaline murder case for H2O. The opportunity for H2O to collect "his intimate conviction" on the quadruple murder of September 5th 2012, in an exclusive podcast.

Did you believe in the motorcyclist's trail?

Dominique Rizet asked himself questions but from the moment the lawyer said that the biker never held a weapon: "It can't be him.
Me Basson-Larbi denounced last week an abusive police custody. "I found it very harsh," replied the journalist. "48 hours of hell. You shouldn't exaggerate! It was normal to ask him questions.

Will we ever find the culprit(s)?

"It's strange, but I would have been disappointed if it had happened like that (that it was the biker). It means that the truth is still to come.

Dominique Rizet is convinced that the killer operated alone, that he is a local. As for the many successive leads: "There are far too many coincidences in the case.

"We have to go back to what is simple. What the hell is this gun? The weapon used does not fit with the hypothesis of a professional murder according to the journalist who has over 250 episodes of the programme 'Faites entrer l'accusé' on his record.

What does it take to get this case solved?

"A big stroke of luck. Maybe it's a case like that, where bad luck has set in." [...]
"The killer disappeared as quickly as he arrived. Possibly he came on foot, he was passing by, he left."

BBM


Snippets from the the podcast:

About the attack on the eldest girl who was hit with the gun: a professional hitman would have had another weapon, a knife as a back-up (in case he ran out of bullets, ~ but the Lüger isn't exactly a weapon for a pro anyway).

This perp has a gun, is maybe a member of a shooting club, or a hunter. Knows how to handle a gun. The weapon would have been 'in the family'. You don't throw away granddad's gun!

It would have been a bad encounter, a chance encounter. Maybe he was there wanting to try his weapon, and someone arrived and said something wrong.... this has happened before ... Dominique Rizet mentions another case (in Fontainebleau) and says he believes something similar has happened in Chevaline.

DR is also convinced that the name of the perp is not in the actual files. He wasn't meant to be there that day, he wasn't planning to kill a family or a cyclist, yet it happened and the person has disappeared as quickly as he arrived. Maybe he was a hiker, the type with a backpack. He disappeared into the woods, and no one saw him, or if they did see him, they thought he was a hiker.

 

[5W's]

How could the family have planned to meet someone up in the mountains if they left the choice of where to go to the eldest daughter? She could have gone shopping in town, but SHE chose the mountains.

What you say about the killer rings a bell, but for him to enjoy violence, he would not need an appointment, a chance encounter would do.

I haven't followed all of the media reports on this case, but there are conspiracy theories regarding it so that's what I'm referring to. IMO anything could have set this off but the amount of violence makes me wonder what was really going on with the killer's intentions. I'm actually new to this thread, but my attention was drawn back to this case with the arrest. I heard about it when it happened in 2012. It still hasn't been solved, for one hing and then I just can't dismiss the amount of violence that occurred so I was drawn to it again.

 

[5W's]

The very simple conclusion may be that after shooting everyone and running out of bullets, the perp realized that the eldest daughter was still alive, and having no bullets left, he whipped her with his pistol.

After that, IMO, the perp disappeared into the woods and that is the sole reason that Brett Martin, the British cyclist, survived the massacre when he arrived on the spot minutes later. It crossed his mind at the time that someone might be hiding in the woods, and he is probably reminded of it every now and then.

As for the girl, both girls, I don't want to speculate. I hope they are doing fine and for their sake, I hope that this case is resolved beyond a doubt one day.

We all hope that for the children. But, do we know when Brett Martin arrived at the scene. How do we know it wasn't after a while, not just after it happened. However if Brett Martin was at the scene at the same time he wouldn't have survived the killer would have made sure he was dead. This killer had a lot of firepower. The killer probably wouldn't do a massacre like this again because being aware of possible witnesses that could arrive as Brett Martin did come by. I personally don't think he ran out of bullets that day. He pistol whipped the child more than one time. The killer was ready to kill witnesses so the firepower was probably more than what was required so it makes me think that this was a violently motivated crime just for the sake of violence. But if the killer did run out of bullets then obviuosly would leave. Perhaps the killer thought the forest rangers could foil the vicious plan and wanted to get out of there. So Brett Martin just happened to be lucky to arrive later. Lucky also that the rangers weren't nearby otherwise them also. The remoteness of the area was probably the reason no one was around them. So the killer was aware of this otherwise perhaps that day there would be a lot more victims. This is my opinion, I know its harsh but its possible, criminals don't want to get caught by LE.

 

[Satchie]

....do we know when Brett Martin arrived at the scene. How do we know it wasn't after a while, not just after it happened. However if Brett Martin was at the scene at the same time he wouldn't have survived the killer would have made sure he was dead. This killer had a lot of firepower. The killer probably wouldn't do a massacre like this again because being aware of possible witnesses that could arrive as Brett Martin did come by. I personally don't think he ran out of bullets that day. He pistol whipped the child more than one time. The killer was ready to kill witnesses so the firepower was probably more than what was required so it makes me think that this was a violently motivated crime just for the sake of violence. But if the killer did run out of bullets then obviuosly would leave. Perhaps the killer thought the forest rangers could foil the vicious plan and wanted to get out of there. So Brett Martin just happened to be lucky to arrive later. Lucky also that the rangers weren't nearby otherwise them also. The remoteness of the area was probably the reason no one was around them. So the killer was aware of this otherwise perhaps that day there would be a lot more victims. This is my opinion, I know its harsh but its possible, criminals don't want to get caught by LE.

No, it hasn't been revealed, exactly what is the estimated time range between the attack and Martin's arrival. Or how long the attack might have lasted. Or how long after the previous visitor left the parking lot, that the family arrived. Or how long they'd been there before the shooting started.

But IMO police will have worked that out, and seem to be testing to try to fine tune it, to within as close and exact a time range as they can..

I know myself from hiking, even in an apparently deserted area, if you stop and wait during normal hiking hours/season, someone always comes along, in surprisingly few minutes.

Since the parking lot was empty, the killer at least knew no one would be coming back from their hike to drive away. But cyclists/hikers, might come from either direction, at any time. There appears to be curves on the road/trail in both directions, so the killer would only have a couple minutes warning if he caught sight of someone approaching.

I think it happened very, very quickly.

So much in every crime is actually unpredictable to the killer, just good or bad luck. Imagine if the al Hilli car hadn't gotten stuck. Wouldn't they have gotten away, and maybe more be known about the killer? Though Zainab might not have survived.

I'm not sure whether/how police know the killer ran out of bullets, or whether that's speculation.

I think because the family were Iraqi, the case attracted too many conspiracy theories about motive. It's, IMO, not effective to start with a speculation about motive, and then point out only details that fit with that motive. Rather than paying attention to the specific details/forensics of the crime, laying out the range of possible motives, and try to eliminate the ones that don't actually fit.

I notice this thread is posted under 'Rampages and Terrorist Attacks'. So that's how the mods view it, and I agree, a rampage against strangers.

But, JMO

 

[5W's]

No, it hasn't been revealed, exactly what is the estimated time range between the attack and Martin's arrival. Or how long the attack might have lasted. Or how long after the previous visitor left the parking lot, that the family arrived. Or how long they'd been there before the shooting started.

But IMO police will have worked that out, and seem to be testing to try to fine tune it, to within as close and exact a time range as they can..

I know myself from hiking, even in an apparently deserted area, if you stop and wait during normal hiking hours/season, someone always comes along, in surprisingly few minutes.

Since the parking lot was empty, the killer at least knew no one would be coming back from their hike to drive away. But cyclists/hikers, might come from either direction, at any time. There appears to be curves on the road/trail in both directions, so the killer would only have a couple minutes warning if he caught sight of someone approaching.

I think it happened very, very quickly.

So much in every crime is actually unpredictable to the killer, just good or bad luck. Imagine if the al Hilli car hadn't gotten stuck. Wouldn't they have gotten away, and maybe more be known about the killer? Though Zainab might not have survived.

I'm not sure whether/how police know the killer ran out of bullets, or whether that's speculation.

I think because the family were Iraqi, the case attracted too many conspiracy theories about motive. It's, IMO, not effective to start with a speculation about motive, and then point out only details that fit with that motive. Rather than paying attention to the specific details/forensics of the crime, laying out the range of possible motives, and try to eliminate the ones that don't actually fit.

I notice this thread is posted under 'Rampages and Terrorist Attacks'. So that's how the mods view it, and I agree, a rampage against strangers.

But, JMO

I can see why the moderators have put it in the rampage against strangers category and I tend to agree with them. It probably did happen quite quickly, but the place the family was parked at was pretty isolated so anything could've happened. IMO I wouldn't put too much faith in that people will be around. If one thinks that there will be people able to help them in case of an emergency and are not prepared, that's how people get stranded and sometimes go missing. I'm surprised that after almost ten years no one has been cuaght. This person knew how not to get caught IMO so that kind of indicates this person's mentality. There are things we can assume or speculate maybe guess at given what we do know from the crime scene. Another thing is that LE has not given an indication the bullets ran out, at least that I'm aware of. I could be wrong. The fact that the child was pistol whipped more than once leads me to think the killer did not run out. This individual was prepared.