GA GA - Jenna Van Gelderen, 25, Atlanta, 18 Aug 2017 #4

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Criminal Justice mom said:
How do they know it was a glass cutter for sure?
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I mentioned glass cutters way back at the beginning and i was knocked down. Because who would happen to have glass cutters with them etc etc.... but now people are talking about it.
Another possible theory of mine is that an altercation happened and someone was pushed against it causing a crack as it is head height on the wall.

I really dont know what happened but these are just initial theories i was contemplating.
e497b4ec74477d3e4b081c83db35660d.jpg


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Shiressleuth said:
Any of Jenna's SM (social media) is ok to link and post on here. E.g. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat - if she has them.

Catching up - havent read the AJC article yet. Who is the missing witness? One of the persons listed by Subie or someone we don't yet know about?
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@Horseguy . You mentioned seeing Jenna's instagram. Could you please post the link?

Just a thought but it would be handy to know the times and order of those debit card transactons plus what was actually purchased. LE and family must know. E.g. if it was makeup that could be an indicator that J left her make up at the house intentionally.
 
"Originally posted by Criminal Justice mom: How do they know it was a glass cutter for sure?"

It was never said by LE that it was a glass cutter that was used. But on the podcast, Jenna's Dad said the glass on the front of the tapestry frame had been "cut" and the tapestry had been removed from the frame by pulling it through the hole in the glass. I don't know what other instruments could be used to make a clean cut in the glass, there may be something, but IMO a glass cutter or similar device was used.
 
"Originally posted by Stanly:

I mentioned glass cutters way back at the beginning and i was knocked down. Because who would happen to have glass cutters with them etc etc.... but now people are talking about it.
Another possible theory of mine is that an altercation happened and someone was pushed against it causing a crack as it is head height on the wall.

I really dont know what happened but these are just initial theories i was contemplating."

I didn't remember your discussion about glass cutters from early on, Stanly, but good theory. When Jenna's Dad mentioned the glass being cut out of the frame in the podcast..... that really stood out to me as being very odd (as Jenna's Dad referred to it, "bizarre"). To make a clean cut in glass, it seems to me a glass cutter or similar device would have to be used. And who routinely carries one of those devices around? That's why I mentioned, had a handy man been to the house or had any windows or auto glass been replaced there recently? Or was anyone in Jenna's circle of friends involved with that type of work? It seems to me, that cutting the glass out of the frame was "premeditated", meaning that someone came into the house with the appropriate device with the intent of cutting the glass out of the frame and stealing the tapestry; so they must have known the tapestry was there, right? All of this JMO.

If I remember correctly, Subie didn't notice that the tapestry was missing until after Jenna was reported missing and he sat down in that room with the investigating Dekalb police officer (was that Sunday?). So, IMO, perhaps the tapestry wasn't removed from the frame until AFTER Jenna went missing.... and someone who had her house keys & car keys came back to the house and stole the tapestry and "staged" her disappearance. It's possible, that the tapestry wasn't removed until AFTER Subie was at the house on Saturday morning. Or, it could be, that Subie just hadn't been in the room where the tapestry was hung until he brought the police officer inside the house and that's why he didn't noticed It was missing until that very moment. I think the "tapestry" room looked like a den /family room / study in the photo, if I remember correctly.

I could be wrong about this, but I think Subie said the frame had been cleaned or wiped down.... IMO, or wearing gloves or just trying to remove fingerprints/DNA. I don't remember Subie saying if the frame was checked by LE for fingerprints. Or maybe we were never told that information.
 
"Originally posted by Shiressleuth; @Horseguy . You mentioned seeing Jenna's instagram. Could you please post the link?

Just a thought but it would be handy to know the times and order of those debit card transactons plus what was actually purchased. LE and family must know. E.g. if it was makeup that could be an indicator that J left her make up at the house intentionally."

Agree with you regarding debit card transactions. And where / what was the very last transaction. I'm particularly interested in Wendy's..... even if they don't know what she bought, the price she paid could be indicative of whether she bought enough for one or more than one person, i.e. If she paid enough for ~ 2 meals. (If she paid a low price, it wouldn't tell us anything). I wonder if the Wendys drive through employee was interviewed or shown a photo of Jenna, to see if he/she remembered anything? I know that Wendys, haven't been there in years, but the back of the building where the drive through is used to be really dark & creepy, kind of isolated. I'm guessing that Wendy's would have a video camera back there, wonder if video footage was accessed by LE? IMO, the Wendys employee could be the person who reported seeing Jenna with a male passenger in the car with her Friday night.
 
Here are couple initial posts on the glass and fingerprints.

This post was from Subie on 9/11:

“And again why did they just now decide to finger print the house last Thursday when that should have been done first week”

This means that the house did get checked on Sept. 7, so I’d think they’d ask them to look at the frame since it housed the stolen item. However, prior to that post, on Aug. 26, he had suggested it has been cleaned. Here is what he said:

“It was in a heavy frame, carefully removed by breaking a small piece of the glass and frame hung back on the wall. The frame definitely takes 2 people to put back up. Glass on the frame appears to have been cleaned as well, very odd”
———-
Perhaps there were streaks left on the glass where they could see it had been cleaned with something. Her mom possibly would know whether she’d cleaned it recently and would know if marks on it were out of place.

Why would Jenna care about fingerprints? They would be expected to be there since she had previously lived there.

Cleaning off the frame would seem like the act of someone who is aware they’re committing a crime (or about to) and they don’t want evidence linking them to it, jmo. Even if Jenna helped the other person remove the art, perhaps she was unaware of the bigger plan or unable to stop it at that point. Maybe, as others have said, she wasn’t even there.


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I'm interested to know about her phone pinging in a dumpster transfer station. Did anyone read this?

Her father Leon posts often on NextDoor and this was posted on Feb 19:
"6 Months since daughter went missing. Nothing leading to an arrest or discovery of my daughters' remains despite finally getting final location of her phone south of Atlanta. DeKalb flooded with homicide cases and this has been a homicide case since November. Witnesses keep contacting us with potential leads but detectives show little interest.Car after found by a citizen in Atlanta remains in back yard. Could not have been forensically searched. Trash between seats, strangers' i-phone cord in car, strangers shoes in trunk and no evidence car was disassembled or carefully scrutinized ; same for wife's car Jenna drove night she disappeared. Keep discovering areas in ping site for Jenna's phone that were never searched including a dumpster transfer station. But what do I know- just her father."

I don't recall there initially being strangers shoes in the trunk? That's huge. Male or female? and I'm very interested to know how many times her phone has been tracked since?

Also - does anyone know at what point or why it would be upgraded to a homicide case? After 3 months in November it was ruled a homicide despite having any evidence? Just curious.
 
"Originally posted by ATLien26

I'm interested to know about her phone pinging in a dumpster transfer station. Did anyone read this?

Her father Leon posts often on NextDoor and this was posted on Feb 19:
"6 Months since daughter went missing. Nothing leading to an arrest or discovery of my daughters' remains despite finally getting final location of her phone south of Atlanta. DeKalb flooded with homicide cases and this has been a homicide case since November. Witnesses keep contacting us with potential leads but detectives show little interest.Car after found by a citizen in Atlanta remains in back yard. Could not have been forensically searched. Trash between seats, strangers' i-phone cord in car, strangers shoes in trunk and no evidence car was disassembled or carefully scrutinized ; same for wife's car Jenna drove night she disappeared. Keep discovering areas in ping site for Jenna's phone that were never searched including a dumpster transfer station. But what do I know- just her father."

I don't recall there initially being strangers shoes in the trunk? That's huge. Male or female? and I'm very interested to know how many times her phone has been tracked since?

Also - does anyone know at what point or why it would be upgraded to a homicide case? After 3 months in November it was ruled a homicide despite having any evidence? Just curious."

ATLien26, I had also read about the shoes. I wonder if the shoe size matches any of the POI. It may be difficult to determine exactly when the shoes were placed in the car, and by whom, but that's up to LE to figure out. If forensics had been done on the shoes, wouldn't LE have kept them as evidence? It's also possible that the shoes could have been placed in the car by someone as a red herring. IMO, the shoes could have been a very useful piece of evidence that was overlooked; totally ignored.

Regarding the case being a homicide..... the family says it has been considered a homicide since November but LE hasn't confirmed that publicly. But then again, we've heard so little from LE about anything. It seems there would have to be some very strong evidence found (? Blood, ? Js soiled clothing; just speculating) suggesting homicide for LE to definitively label the case "homicide" and inform the family of that. And also wondering how the areas searched with dogs were determined. So much we don't know.
 
I can’t wrap my head around the glass being cut. I’ve cut glass before and you have to kind of bend it after it’s scored to get it to break. I can’t imagine that happening inside the frame. A cutting tool leaves a mark on the glass edges when it’s scored. It’s not perfectly clean. I assume a detective knows whether it was really cut or not, but I’m skeptical that it was cut. I wish I could see it, but then again, not sure what that would prove, anyway. Haha
 
I think a private detective or 2 would be a good idea at this point... smh
 
ATLien26 said:
I'm interested to know about her phone pinging in a dumpster transfer station. Did anyone read this?

Her father Leon posts often on NextDoor and this was posted on Feb 19:
"6 Months since daughter went missing. Nothing leading to an arrest or discovery of my daughters' remains despite finally getting final location of her phone south of Atlanta. DeKalb flooded with homicide cases and this has been a homicide case since November. Witnesses keep contacting us with potential leads but detectives show little interest.Car after found by a citizen in Atlanta remains in back yard. Could not have been forensically searched. Trash between seats, strangers' i-phone cord in car, strangers shoes in trunk and no evidence car was disassembled or carefully scrutinized ; same for wife's car Jenna drove night she disappeared. Keep discovering areas in ping site for Jenna's phone that were never searched including a dumpster transfer station. But what do I know- just her father."

I don't recall there initially being strangers shoes in the trunk? That's huge. Male or female? and I'm very interested to know how many times her phone has been tracked since?

Also - does anyone know at what point or why it would be upgraded to a homicide case? After 3 months in November it was ruled a homicide despite having any evidence? Just curious.
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Welcome ATLien. Good user name . :smile:
I don't think her phone actually pinged in a dumpster station but near the city of Fairburn. Fairburn has a waste site I believe. First I heard about the shoes. I wonder if they were male or female and what size? Perhaps they should try them on some of the POI's ? - a la Cinderella ?
 
"Original post by BlkMtnGirl

I can't wrap my head around the glass being cut. I’ve cut glass before and you have to kind of bend it after it’s scored to get it to break. I can’t imagine that happening inside the frame. A cutting tool leaves a mark on the glass edges when it’s scored. It’s not perfectly clean. I assume a detective knows whether it was really cut or not, but I’m skeptical that it was cut. I wish I could see it, but then again, not sure what that would prove, anyway. Haha".

Just to clarify, Jenna's dad said in the podcast that the glass on the frame had been "cut" and the tapestry removed through the hole in the glass. It was my words, "clean" cut in the glass, implying that the glass did not have jagged edges, as it would had it been smashed. I didn't wasn't intending to imply that the glass had completely "smooth" edges. But I see what you say about scoring the glass etc. and the edges not being completely smooth. I may be wrong about this, but I thought the cut out piece of glass was placed back into the opening after the tapestry was removed,... and that's how it was found by Subie & the police officer.....didn't Subie say that?

Edited: I just went back and looked at some previous posts regarding the frame / broken glass & tapestry. There is a pic of it on Thread 2, pg 40, #590, originally posted by noseynellie. It's different than I had pictugred in my mind. (ISorry, but I don't know how to carry the pic forward).
 
Atlmom said:
"Original post by BlkMtnGirl

I can't wrap my head around the glass being cut. I’ve cut glass before and you have to kind of bend it after it’s scored to get it to break. I can’t imagine that happening inside the frame. A cutting tool leaves a mark on the glass edges when it’s scored. It’s not perfectly clean. I assume a detective knows whether it was really cut or not, but I’m skeptical that it was cut. I wish I could see it, but then again, not sure what that would prove, anyway. Haha".

Just to clarify, Jenna's dad said in the podcast that the glass on the frame had been "cut" and the tapestry removed through the hole in the glass. It was my words, "clean" cut in the glass, implying that the glass did not have jagged edges, as it would had it been smashed. I didn't wasn't intending to imply that the glass had completely "smooth" edges. But I see what you say about scoring the glass etc. and the edges not being completely smooth. I may be wrong about this, but I thought the cut out piece of glass was placed back into the opening after the tapestry was removed,... and that's how it was found by Subie & the police officer.....didn't Subie say that?
Click to expand...

I remember it like that. I.e. the piece had been put back in.

In BoH timeline it says the piece fell out when Subie and the police took it down so they left it out.
 
Haha, Shiressleuth, Cinderella & the glass slipper. Or OJ Simpson & the infamous glove.
 
Atlmom said:
"Original post by BlkMtnGirl

I can't wrap my head around the glass being cut. I’ve cut glass before and you have to kind of bend it after it’s scored to get it to break. I can’t imagine that happening inside the frame. A cutting tool leaves a mark on the glass edges when it’s scored. It’s not perfectly clean. I assume a detective knows whether it was really cut or not, but I’m skeptical that it was cut. I wish I could see it, but then again, not sure what that would prove, anyway. Haha".

Just to clarify, Jenna's dad said in the podcast that the glass on the frame had been "cut" and the tapestry removed through the hole in the glass. It was my words, "clean" cut in the glass, implying that the glass did not have jagged edges, as it would had it been smashed. I didn't wasn't intending to imply that the glass had completely "smooth" edges. But I see what you say about scoring the glass etc. and the edges not being completely smooth. I may be wrong about this, but I thought the cut out piece of glass was placed back into the opening after the tapestry was removed,... and that's how it was found by Subie & the police officer.....didn't Subie say that?

Edited: I just went back and looked at some previous posts regarding the frame / broken glass & tapestry. There is a pic of it on Thread 2, pg 40, #590, originally posted by noseynellie. It's different than I had pictured in my mind. (I don't know how to carry the pic forward).
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember him saying that the piece fell out when they moved it. But how does he know that the piece that fell out was from a cut and not a crack? If the person was trying to pull it out from behind the glass (since it was a fabric and not a rigid substrate, I’m imagining someone might think they could yank it out) and it cracked in the process, couldn’t it create the same outcome when moved later?

And again, why all the effort to steal something? Why care so much about keeping the glass in tact and the frame on the wall?


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Atlmom said:
Haha, Shiressleuth, Cinderella & the glass slipper. Or OJ Simpson & the infamous glove.
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Yes, but in Cinderella the villains (ugly sisters) want the slipper to fit them. Here, the POI's will not want them to fit. Was that similar to OJ? I'm not familiar with the glove issue I'm afraid. :thinking:
 
Don't want to teach at all but please be wear of your own interpretations, assumptions, making picture in your head....building a/the story based on information we get.....
 
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