GA - Jonah, 3, & Nicole Payne, 2, Warrenton, 23 April 2005

[tezi]

When my sister disappeared, my family refused to talk to the media. They printed information that was false hoping that we would call them to correct their stories, thereby getting an interview. I hate the media.

I can totally understand why you hate the media. I often wonder how many times this happens? Probably more than we can collectively count!

 

[sleuthin4fun]

I don't know how often these parents allowed these children to play outside unsupervised. I have always watched my children very closely. I will say though that our now ten year old son left our house at 5am when he was three years old. He went next door to the neighbors in nothing but a diaper and cowboy boots in the middle of winter. Boy was he in trouble!!!! He never did anything like that again. My point is, it happens.

 

[bulletgirl2002]

I don't know how often these parents allowed these children to play outside unsupervised. I have always watched my children very closely. I will say though that our now ten year old son left our house at 5am when he was three years old. He went next door to the neighbors in nothing but a diaper and cowboy boots in the middle of winter. Boy was he in trouble!!!! He never did anything like that again. My point is, it happens.

ONCE....then you take measures. It shouldn't happen over and over

 

[concernedperson]

I don't know how often these parents allowed these children to play outside unsupervised. I have always watched my children very closely. I will say though that our now ten year old son left our house at 5am when he was three years old. He went next door to the neighbors in nothing but a diaper and cowboy boots in the middle of winter. Boy was he in trouble!!!! He never did anything like that again. My point is, it happens.

My son was very precocious when a toddler and he kept me on my toes. One day I was calling for him and he wouldn't come...looked in all the normal places then proceeded outside screaming, knocking on neighbors doors, enlisting everyone and everybody to search. This was minutes and we had a huge search party scouring but no one could find him. I was panicked and so you can imagine the rest. We went inside to call the police and my daughter tells me he is under his bed taking a nap!!!!! This was in my own home and I couldn't find him and never thought to look under his bed...he had never done that before.

 

[Cypros]

My son was very precocious when a toddler and he kept me on my toes. One day I was calling for him and he wouldn't come...looked in all the normal places then proceeded outside screaming, knocking on neighbors doors, enlisting everyone and everybody to search. This was minutes and we had a huge search party scouring but no one could find him. I was panicked and so you can imagine the rest. We went inside to call the police and my daughter tells me he is under his bed taking a nap!!!!! This was in my own home and I couldn't find him and never thought to look under his bed...he had never done that before.

I had a similar experience with my cat. I have the backyard rigged so that he cannot get out of it. I let him out back one day and about a half hour later looked out to check on him and he was gone. That is when I discovered that the back gate was ajar. I spent about an hour running up and down the street calling for him and really starting to panic. I was worried about cars and stray dogs. At one point I had to use the bathroom and so I ran upstairs and there was my precious furry guy curled up on my bed. As far as I know he had never gone anywhere!! Lol! He is 17 years old next week. :HappyBday

 

[indicajane]

OK, look..I'm gonna say something, then y'all can attack me or whatnot...but attempting not to be cynical about the mother...and saying this was just a horrible mistake:

Not everyone is a wonderful housewife and caregiver. As has been stated time and time again, you don't need a license to be a parent, unfortunately. That said, I have friends who grew up in homes that were filthy, and had lackadasical parents, and were well adjusted and loved..I also knew parents who kept a spotless house and a tight rein on their kids, and they were cold and unloving. As a child, there is no doubt which I would prefer.

We have parents who boil everything, safety lock everything, cut grapes into four perfectly shaped squares, and their kids end up figuring out the child lock and eating a bottle of bleach and die. Or someone breaks into their house in the middle of the night and steal their child and bury them alive or something.

I love my kids, but I'm the kind of parent who never carried a baby bag, who used toilet paper for wipes, whose kid always missed their nap, who gummed french fries for dinner...i used to nap when my kids napped, and Buck, my little boy escaped twice, waking up early from our naps. Once he got three blocks away and I had to call the police, the second time was at an apartment complex with a huge DUCK pond, he was found playing on the banks of it while I slept soundly under the impression he was lying next to me. I was WOKEN up with the apartment manager, with Buck in hand, aged three. I was /mortified/. Could I have been held liable if he drowned? Absolutely. Am I bad mother? I don't like to think so.

Everytime I read about this woman, and the critism, and the finger pointing by her neighbors and such, I'm sorry, it breaks my heart. Could she have been more careful. I'm sure she could have, who couldn't? Hindsights a though. I can promise you, despite the examination of her dress, her reaction to the death of her two children, her living conditions, this is a tragedy, and if she didn't go and PUSH those children in the pond, then no one is mourning their loss more. Especially now that she is painted by the media as some sort of haggard white trash who killed her own children, if not by action, then by inaction. All I can think is that how absolutely gut wretchedly HORRID that could be, to lose BOTH your children, and for the rest of your life know that you could have prevented it. I would slit my wrists. Take away everyone blaming you.

 

[lostfaith]

OK, look..I'm gonna say something, then y'all can attack me or whatnot...but attempting not to be cynical about the mother...and saying this was just a horrible mistake:

Not everyone is a wonderful housewife and caregiver. As has been stated time and time again, you don't need a license to be a parent, unfortunately. That said, I have friends who grew up in homes that were filthy, and had lackadasical parents, and were well adjusted and loved..I also knew parents who kept a spotless house and a tight rein on their kids, and they were cold and unloving. As a child, there is no doubt which I would prefer.

We have parents who boil everything, safety lock everything, cut grapes into four perfectly shaped squares, and their kids end up figuring out the child lock and eating a bottle of bleach and die. Or someone breaks into their house in the middle of the night and steal their child and bury them alive or something.

I love my kids, but I'm the kind of parent who never carried a baby bag, who used toilet paper for wipes, whose kid always missed their nap, who gummed french fries for dinner...i used to nap when my kids napped, and Buck, my little boy escaped twice, waking up early from our naps. Once he got three blocks away and I had to call the police, the second time was at an apartment complex with a huge DUCK pond, he was found playing on the banks of it while I slept soundly under the impression he was lying next to me. I was WOKEN up with the apartment manager, with Buck in hand, aged three. I was /mortified/. Could I have been held liable if he drowned? Absolutely. Am I bad mother? I don't like to think so.

Everytime I read about this woman, and the critism, and the finger pointing by her neighbors and such, I'm sorry, it breaks my heart. Could she have been more careful. I'm sure she could have, who couldn't? Hindsights a though. I can promise you, despite the examination of her dress, her reaction to the death of her two children, her living conditions, this is a tragedy, and if she didn't go and PUSH those children in the pond, then no one is mourning their loss more. Especially now that she is painted by the media as some sort of haggard white trash who killed her own children, if not by action, then by inaction. All I can think is that how absolutely gut wretchedly HORRID that could be, to lose BOTH your children, and for the rest of your life know that you could have prevented it. I would slit my wrists. Take away everyone blaming you.

All I can say to this post is "Amen!" Could not have said it better myself! Now, they are even speculated as being mildly retarted! I am with you, if she PUSHED those kids in the pond, hang her! But... until then, lets not push her into suicide.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

This is from an article previously linked in this thread:

Two people who know the family said the parents had a history of leaving the children unattended, and that their home was a mess.

Asked about these assertions Monday night, Kain, her voice cracking, told a reporter, "Right now, I can't say anymore."

Kathy Coleman, owner of Coleman's Mobile Home Park in Gibson, said DFCS called her about two years ago regarding complaints that the parents had left Jonah alone in their trailer.

On one occasion, Coleman said, Kain said she could leave the boy alone because he would be safe in his playpen. Coleman said she scolded Kain, saying: "Good Lord, don't you know a baby can get out, and turn the stove on and burn the house down?"

Coleman said she evicted the family about a year ago for nonpayment of rent. While they lived in her mobile home park, Coleman said, "The house was a mess. Old food . . . on the tables in the living room. Food on the couch. . . . I wouldn't feed my dog [there]."

Brenda Johnson, who said she has known the family for about four years, said she and her husband went to the couple's home Saturday night after they learned the children were missing. She said she stayed with Kain while her husband joined the search that included 150 people, heat-seeking devices, infrared radar and dogs.

"She didn't seem emotional," Johnson said. She said Kain told her she thought a vindictive neighbor had taken the children and hidden them as a way to get back at her.

Johnson, who said she had baby-sat for the two children, said the mother would leave them unattended and that she did not keep a clean house.

Johnson described Jonah and Nicole as good kids. "They would run right up to you," she said. "Very loving kids. Happy kids." - http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0405/26warren.html

I have two adult sons who are mentally retarded, and I've been active in both public school special education classes and Special Olympics. I also suspect that Lottie Kain might be mildly impaired or low-normal intelligence.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

I haven''t seen any photos of the holes in the pond fencing that have been described as large enough for a child to go through. Has anyone seen the holes and are they large enough for an adult to go through? I haven't read them described as large enough to allow an adult to pass through.

 

[drtee]

When my cat died I couldn't go to work for three days, couldn't talk to anyone without crying. That was one of the things that made me trust Mark Lundsford--he could barely talk when he was begging people to look for Jessica. He was sincere. I never criticized him for his appearance.

Can't wait for Nancy Grace tonight.

 

[Julie]

I haven''t seen any photos of the holes in the pond fencing that have been described as large enough for a child to go through. Has anyone seen the holes and are they large enough for an adult to go through? I haven't read them described as large enough to allow an adult to pass through.

I was wondering the same thing, on Fox they showed the parents walking through the woods, but I didn't even see the fence.

 

[kgeaux]

When my cat died I couldn't go to work for three days, couldn't talk to anyone without crying. That was one of the things that made me trust Mark Lundsford--he could barely talk when he was begging people to look for Jessica. He was sincere. I never criticized him for his appearance.

Can't wait for Nancy Grace tonight.

Everyone grieves differently. You cry, Timex says she is more private in the display of her emotions. I am probably somewhere in between. If I or you or Timex, God forbid, were going through something like this in front of cameras, NO ONE should judge our grief. No one should call one of us innocent because they think we grieve the "right" way, or call another guilty because they grieve the "wrong" way.

Plenty of people on this forum thought Mark Lunsford, or Grandpa HAD to have done it or known what happened to Jessica. Or Grandma was guilty, because she said "was" when speaking of Jessica, because she mentioned that Jessica's favorite chore was cleaning the bathroom. Their every move, every word, the words they chose when they formed their sentences, all were judged and talked about. Turns out they were innocent.

You just cannot tell. We have to wait for the evidence.

I like Nancy Grace, too, and I'll be watching with you.

 

[kgeaux]

I was wondering the same thing, on Fox they showed the parents walking through the woods, but I didn't even see the fence.

Fox showed a fence earlier today that was pulled up at the bottom--the chain links were lifted probably a good three feet off the ground and curled up towards the inside. I do not know if it was the actual fence or not. But I do know the chief of police said the children could have "easily" gotten through the fence to the retention pond.

editing to correct: that three feet up there should read two feet. Sorry, I was giving my son a phone number while I was typing and I screwed up! The fence was TWO feet off the ground.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Susan Smith's face was wet with tears when she appeared on camera but it sure didn't make her innocent.

 

[kgeaux]

OK, look..I'm gonna say something, then y'all can attack me or whatnot...but attempting not to be cynical about the mother...and saying this was just a horrible mistake:

Not everyone is a wonderful housewife and caregiver. As has been stated time and time again, you don't need a license to be a parent, unfortunately. That said, I have friends who grew up in homes that were filthy, and had lackadasical parents, and were well adjusted and loved..I also knew parents who kept a spotless house and a tight rein on their kids, and they were cold and unloving. As a child, there is no doubt which I would prefer.

We have parents who boil everything, safety lock everything, cut grapes into four perfectly shaped squares, and their kids end up figuring out the child lock and eating a bottle of bleach and die. Or someone breaks into their house in the middle of the night and steal their child and bury them alive or something.

I love my kids, but I'm the kind of parent who never carried a baby bag, who used toilet paper for wipes, whose kid always missed their nap, who gummed french fries for dinner...i used to nap when my kids napped, and Buck, my little boy escaped twice, waking up early from our naps. Once he got three blocks away and I had to call the police, the second time was at an apartment complex with a huge DUCK pond, he was found playing on the banks of it while I slept soundly under the impression he was lying next to me. I was WOKEN up with the apartment manager, with Buck in hand, aged three. I was /mortified/. Could I have been held liable if he drowned? Absolutely. Am I bad mother? I don't like to think so.

Everytime I read about this woman, and the critism, and the finger pointing by her neighbors and such, I'm sorry, it breaks my heart. Could she have been more careful. I'm sure she could have, who couldn't? Hindsights a though. I can promise you, despite the examination of her dress, her reaction to the death of her two children, her living conditions, this is a tragedy, and if she didn't go and PUSH those children in the pond, then no one is mourning their loss more. Especially now that she is painted by the media as some sort of haggard white trash who killed her own children, if not by action, then by inaction. All I can think is that how absolutely gut wretchedly HORRID that could be, to lose BOTH your children, and for the rest of your life know that you could have prevented it. I would slit my wrists. Take away everyone blaming you.

I totally agree with you. It breaks my heart, too.

 

[bulletgirl2002]

I totally agree with you. It breaks my heart, too.

Well, I don't agree with you. Those kids are just as dead by not being properly supervised and this is not an isolated one time incident. Do I feel sorry for the mother - absolutely. We say don't criticize, don't blame....maybe if DFACS had done a little more criticizing and blaming those babies would still be here.

One thing I am thinking about is this woman (who I entirely feel sorry and badly for) might just end up owning Warren County because I think they too might be just as "neglectful" by not having an adequate fence around this.

 

[Lesleegp]

Well, I don't agree with you. Those kids are just as dead by not being properly supervised and this is not an isolated one time incident. Do I feel sorry for the mother - absolutely. We say don't criticize, don't blame....maybe if DFACS had done a little more criticizing and blaming those babies would still be here.

One thing I am thinking about is this woman (who I entirely feel sorry and badly for) might just end up owning Warren County because I think they too might be just as "neglectful" by not having an adequate fence around this.

Hmmmmm, money huh? Your kids mysteriously drown in a city-owned "pond"......sue the city for negligence.......amounts to some pretty big bucks...........interesting angle......probably very unlikely, but a thought......

 

[indicajane]

First of all, I don't think that owning Warren county would replace those children.

Second of all, it was a horrible, tragic accident..and by many of these posts, I think many other mothers can completely relate. Could she have maybe done things differently? Probably. But that could go for every single child abducted, every single missing child, every single murdered child. I'm sure even in the most secure of homes there is that slight opening..where anything can happen. Any of us with children can easily go back and say, my child could have easy died X time...the news is full daily of parents who aren't fortunate enough to be able to look back and say that.

Thirdly, about her reaction. I concure. No one can judge anyone elses reaction to shock and despair. I freeze up too. I wouldn't be crying at all.

I've talked to several people today about what happened, and read the articles to them. All of them expressed horror at how people could be so callous as to gossip about the condition of their house, when their children wandered off and DROWNED. These children were well dressed, all accounts have them friendly, they weren't being physically or sexually abused by any accounts. It does appear that there were some serious parenting issues, but it seems to be more ignorance and lack of a support system then not LOVING their children.

I hurt for them right now.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

"Owning Warren County" doesn't look like it would amount to much. :-(

 

[Julie]

First of all, I don't think that owning Warren county would replace those children.

Second of all, it was a horrible, tragic accident..and by many of these posts, I think many other mothers can completely relate. Could she have maybe done things differently? Probably. But that could go for every single child abducted, every single missing child, every single murdered child. I'm sure even in the most secure of homes there is that slight opening..where anything can happen. Any of us with children can easily go back and say, my child could have easy died X time...the news is full daily of parents who aren't fortunate enough to be able to look back and say that.

Thirdly, about her reaction. I concure. No one can judge anyone elses reaction to shock and despair. I freeze up too. I wouldn't be crying at all.

I've talked to several people today about what happened, and read the articles to them. All of them expressed horror at how people could be so callous as to gossip about the condition of their house, when their children wandered off and DROWNED. These children were well dressed, all accounts have them friendly, they weren't being physically or sexually abused by any accounts. It does appear that there were some serious parenting issues, but it seems to be more ignorance and lack of a support system then not LOVING their children.

I hurt for them right now.

Leaving a 2 and 3 year old alone for 15 minutes is beyond ignorant to me.