GA - Jonah, 3, & Nicole Payne, 2, Warrenton, 23 April 2005

[Bobbisangel]

Hairbow?? What would someone think a hairbow has to do with it? :doh:

I recall people being so suspicious over Mark Lunsford because of the way he looked and the bikers he knew etc...just goes to show you can't judge a book because Mark Lunsford is one of the finest people I believe I have ever met.

And don't forget the grandparents. People had both of them guilty right off the bat.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Well most us who don't live under a rock already know what kind of world it is. Its a world where you NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES allow a 2 and 3 year old to play outside ALONE!

If they were all inside, why didn't she just lock the door? Her kids would most likely still be home.

THAT's what kind of world we live in. Not liking it doesn't change the fact that we need to take precautions. I lock my door even if I'm alone. Home invasion robberies are at an all time high.

This mother is a human being and she might have forgotten to lock the door when they came in from outside. They also lived in an area where it was really rural. Parents in the country would tend to worry less then parents living in a big city.

I haven't read anything about the mother leaving the kids outside alone to play.

 

[Julie]

sorry if this has been posted already, this thread is quite long and I may have missed it. This is taken from the Nancy Grace show.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/25/ng.01.html

GRACE: Joining us by phone, the children`s father, Dennis Payne.

Mr. Payne, thank you for being with us.

DENNIS PAYNE, FATHER OF CHILDREN FOUND DEAD: Hi.

GRACE: Mr. Payne, I am so sorry. Our prayers and our thoughts are with you and your wife.

PAYNE: Thank you.

GRACE: Sir, how do you think the kids got out of the house?

PAYNE: Well, my wife, simply like she said, she was in the room and they -- the youngest one opened up the door. That`s what she said. And when she came around the corner, the door was wide open, and the kids were gone.

GRACE: Oh, gosh.

PAYNE: And we ran around the house, the yard, and everything looking for them. No sign of them.

GRACE: Sir, how are you and your wife doing tonight?

PAYNE: Right now, we`re in a lot of hurt and a lot of grief because it was her first two kids. And the youngest one (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was closer to me because I delivered her.

GRACE: Well, they are beautiful. They are absolutely beautiful.

PAYNE: They are. They was my pride and joy. They was both of our pride and joy. And she loved them anyway. I mean, she loved them every which way.

She was a good mother. Like I said to people, you can`t let your eyes off those kids not for one minute. You never know what they`re going to do.

GRACE: Now, your wife had, I understand, just gone into the bathroom briefly.

PAYNE: Yes, just for about 15 minutes. And she kept calling their names.

GRACE: In 15 minutes they got out? And they got out in 15 minutes?

PAYNE: In 15 minutes. And I mean, she kept calling their names. And she didn`t hear no noise. So that`s when she just jumped up and went in the living room.

When she didn`t, she went around the corner. When she came around the corner, she seen the front door was wide open.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. Now, how far away was this pond from your house?

PAYNE: It`s a pretty good ways. That`s why we`re trying to figure out how they got down there. They ain`t never been down there.

GRACE: Where were you? Where were you, Mr. Payne? You were at work?

PAYNE: Yes.

GRACE: So you were in -- what happened? Did she call 911 quickly or did she go out to try to find them herself?

PAYNE: She tried to find them first, and then she called 911.

GRACE: Yes, you`d think that they would be in the yard, maybe playing around the car.

PAYNE: That`s what she -- that`s why she went in around the yard and looked first. And then, I mean, to be honest with you, I don`t have a answer for any of those because I wasn`t here.

GRACE: Yes, and then the longer she looked in the yard, unbeknownst to her, the further away the kids were getting, you know, if that`s what happened to them.

PAYNE: It`s like we said, where that pond is, that`s a good, good ways. And I don`t even have no answer or any information about it to give right now.

GRACE: Yes, sir. Is there a fence around that pond?

PAYNE: What I understand, there was. There`s a chain-link fence.

GRACE: Now, I don`t -- but there are holes in the fence that the toddlers could have gotten through?

PAYNE: Well, that`s what I don`t have that information. That`s why I`m here. Everybody is telling me about it but I never got told that. And that`s why I`d like to know what`s going on, because we did walk down there just a few minutes ago, and we got back from the...

GRACE: How long did it take you to walk that, Mr. Payne?

PAYNE: Well, we didn`t take a long -- you know, trying to get shortcuts and trying to get rid of people following us. So me and my wife could have some time, and go down there, and see it, and pray a little prayer, and look at it.

We would have been there in a few minutes. I mean, the oldest boy, he gets running, he`s real stumbley. I mean, he`ll trip. And no woods -- he`ll trip over a tree stump real quick.

That`s what I`m saying. There`s no way that -- I don`t know. To really be honest, I`m trying to figure this all out. And that`s why right now I`m so confused.

GRACE: Oh, I know you are. I know nothing makes sense to you right now. I just...

PAYNE: I mean, because I know those two little ones, they can move.

GRACE: They can take off. They can take off. It`s hard to catch them. But what would they have had to go through to get from the house to the pond all on their own? Wouldn`t they have had to go through forest, and trees, and the fence?

PAYNE: That`s where we live. A punch of pine forests. And that`s why I`m saying there`s no way...

GRACE: That they could get there all on their own. Look, I`m from Georgia, too. I know exactly what you are talking about. I grew up in a rural area and look how thick.

Elizabeth, did you just see how thick that brush was they were getting through?

PAYNE: Well, what I -- when we got there, there is a little road path. But we never took them over that way, never.

GRACE: So how would they know to get there exactly?

PAYNE: Well, we took that road path one time, a long, long time ago, and there`s no way they could recall that road. But I think they were smart. They fooled us. Like I said, my little girl could pull up a stool by the sink and start washing dishes.

GRACE: Well, the other thing is, she managed to beat the lock on the door and get out before. This was not the first time.

PAYNE: No, there was no beating. There was no beating. She turned it like a grown-up would turn.

GRACE: Well, the thing is, this is not the first time. It`s not unheard of for them to get out of the house. They got out of the house recently. And the neighbors saw them. And they came back home. So we know they know how to get out on their own.

PAYNE: Yes, they did. And you know, like I said, we was going to put a chain across the door, like a safety chain, but it was too late.

GRACE: Oh, gosh.

PAYNE: We just bought it. We was going to put it on that evening.

GRACE: Mr. Payne, have they told you the cause of death yet?

PAYNE: I have no information about it yet. Like I said, the law enforcement, and the rescue people, and the GBIs, they are doing a wonderful job. They did a good job.

And I don`t know. I`d rather let them handle it, and then as soon as they get all they need to know, they`ll let us know. But...

GRACE: Mr. Payne...

PAYNE: ... the only thing I can say, those kids mean a lot to her. We loved them. And we still love them, and they always will be in our hearts.

And there won`t be nothing to replace them, one thing you can`t -- you know you`re lost. And I wish I could bring them back, but I can`t.

And the only thing I can say, they are in a better place with God now. I wish I could bring them back. They mean a lot to me. And I wish I -- it was just too short of time.

And excuse me, I`m just losing my voice. But like I said...

GRACE: Mr. Payne, thank you for talking to us.

PAYNE: My wife, and she`s hurting big time. And like I said, she had -- you could do whatever -- you know, you could give them time-out and everything, but my little one, she was a hard-head. And she will keep going, and keep going, and keep doing it. She was a daredevil.

And I wish -- I don`t know what to, you know, say. That`s all I can say. I want everybody to know that thank you from the bottom of our hearts of the people who have been out here voluntarily and everybody who took time to help us.

And I want you to let them know that we really mean -- we really loved them and appreciate them for helping us find our kids. And I wish it wasn`t in that term, but, you know, I still want to know some answers, and I want to know how it happened, really.

GRACE: Mr. Payne, thank you for being with us. I know that this must be one of the worst nights of your life.

PAYNE: It is. I have never in my life had this ever happen to me. And to be honest, I don`t know what I`m going to do. I mean, I don`t know -- I have a confusing mind.

I have never experienced this before. But I will always let people know, don`t ever, ever leave your sight with your kids. And make sure, if you have to, put dead bolts or something, because that`s the only way you`re going to protect them.

They`re young, they want to have fun. They had a backyard. They had a front yard. They never -- and what I don`t understand, they left the front yard. Why was the gate closed?

GRACE: Mr. Payne, I know that you must be beside yourself tonight. And I don`t know what good it will do for the way you feel tonight, but please know there are millions of people praying for you and your family and your little children tonight.

Thank you for being with us.

PAYNE: I appreciate it.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

PAYNE: Thank you for your time. And I just want to let people know that we all appreciate everybody`s concern. And just all we can do is say a prayer. And we said they are with God right now.

And I wish it would never have happened. I wish I could bring them back, but I can`t.

GRACE: With us, the father of the two toddlers missing, Dennis Payne, speaking out. Please stay with us.

I don't know about ya'll, but it sounds to me like he is trying awfully hard to say his wife didn't do it. Do you think that they think the police suspect her? Or maybe he has his own gut feeling and is trying to convince himself that she wouldn't have done it??

 

[Bobbisangel]

You mean to tell me that a woman who just lost two kids is reading an internet forum?????? Yes, I DO KNOW that she's not. Gimme a break. Maybe if enough "word gets around" mommies won't allow their 2 and 3 year olds to play outside ALONE!

No one has said that the mom allowed the kids to play outside alone. And no the mom probably isn't on the internet but some of her family could easily be or some of the neighbors.

If some people had their way it sounds like they would like to see the mom tarred and feathered or hung in the village square. Maybe if the mom had taken the kids in the bathroom with her and sat one on one of her knees and one on the other knee it wouldn't have happened. Shame on her!!

I don't believe for one second that all of us haven't left our kids in a room alone while we went to the bathroom. Mothers are human and there isn't a mother on this earth that keeps her kids right beside her every second of the day and night. I'll bet that us older mothers didn't always lock the door behind us either. Probably not the younger moms either. You come in the house with your arms loaded with gro's and you are pushing the kids ahead of you. You head for the kitchen to unload the gro's. Do you stop with your arms loaded to lock the door behind you...probably not. You probably think "putting the gro's down will just take a second" and you go on into the kitchen. In those seconds the kids can be right back outside. With luck they are right there in the yard. None of us are so perfect that there haven't been times our kids could have wandered off down the road or gotten hurt some way. We were just lucky and our kids didn't drown in a pond or get hit by a car.

 

[bulletgirl2002]

No one wants this woman "tarred and feathered". I don't think she will be charged at all. She is suffering and will for the rest of her life and I think everyone feels sorry for her. I just feel alot sorrier for her kids. And I dont' care how many of you say it could have happened to you.....I ain't gonna excuse blatant neglect. Shoot how many of us have gotten behind a wheel after a few drinks? Does that mean we excuse someone who does so and kills a bunch of people? After all, "it could have been me that had a few too many. I did that once". I don't think so. The point is see what can happen if you don't watch your kids and learn from it, don't excuse it.

 

[SavannahGal]

My children are still young but not 2 and 3 years old. I have read most of these posts and have mixed reactions on them. No, I don't blame the mother. How many showers have we all had while our children were young? How many times have we been sick and throwing up in the bathroom while our kids are in the other part of the house? The fact is we cannot be in the same room 24/7 with our children. We have been lucky in that our children are safe. This women was not negligent in my opinion. She was just human and in being so, lost her children in a way that none of us can truly fathom. I still go outside with my children when they are playing. They always ask me why other kids get to play outside by themselves and they can't. Unfortunately, I have to tell my kids the truth that not everyone is nice and some people mean harm to kids just like them. That doesn't mean that harm could not come to my children. It just means I stand a better chance of it not happening to them. Yes, when they were younger, I still had to shower, which meant they were alone, so to speak, for those 15 minutes. I locked doors and instructed them not to answer the door or ever open it and go outside. I would yell for them to answer to me every couple of minutes while I was showering with the bathroom door open. Once, my daughter didn't answer back. Fortunately, she was on the front porch petting the neighbor's kitten and didn't wander off or get hit by a car. I was mortified and felt like a horrible mother but I was lucky. My new male neighbor was lucky too. He got to see me in my birthday suit soaking wet with tears running down my face from fear and thankfulness that she was okay. Since then, I try really hard not to judge other parents until all the facts are in. And it seems this was just a tragedy, not neglect on her part. My prayers go out to the family.

 

[Julie]

I stand by my opinion that the mother was negligent based on the fact that she knew her daughter could unlock the door and the gate by herself and did nothing to prevent it while she was in another part of the house. Baby gates, chairs, there are plenty of fast fixes to keep your kids indoors if you they can unlock the door.

 

[KatherineQ]

I have a concern that he said his wife just lost "her first two kids". It seems very clear they're planning on having more.

I think the cops are very, very reluctant to press any kind of charges - it seems heartless to do that to parents who just lost two kids - but if they're about to have more, there needs to be some sort of legal framework in place before the next kids are born to supervise them, or educate them, or something before this happens again.

I'm just not hearing from the dad they understand yet, what happened. A 2 year old that can open a door (as he said, she just turned it like an adult) is a normal two year old. That's no houdini escape artist, that's a two year old with normal intellect. I don't get the impression they're prepared and willing to supervise a child with normal intelligence and curiosity -

 

[kk's mom]

I'm not judging the parents at all. My heart breaks for them. The only thing that stood out to me in the Nancy Grace transcript above was when he indicated that the wife and come back into the room and noticed the door wide open and they were gone. He said "we ran around the house, outside, calling their names, looking for them". Then a few sentences later, Nancy asked him where he was and he said he "wasn't home, was at work".

Maybe I'm reading into the conversation too much but it did jump out at me. Maybe she called him at work and then he came home and they were calling for them. I could be wrong.

 

[KatherineQ]

KK's mom - reread the interview. He's consistent about "she" looked for them.

He's got two trains of thought going there - if you read from the beginning of the interview, he's describing how he and his wife, AFTER the babies were found, retraced the steps and went to the pond to see if there was a hole. It seems he and his wife couldn't find a hole, but he describes their walk to the pond.

He's also describing HER looking for the kids after they went missing.

It's convusing because it's a verbal conversation and jumps around, but he sounds consistent to me.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

What bothers me is WHY would they go there if they had never been before....you would think if they saw the fence they would just carry on playing, ignoring it.... but I guess fences and kids equate CLIMBING UP and CRAWLING through...(it's been a while for me...my girls are grown...LOL)

Also, a sewage/sanitation treatment pond near my place of residence would have me emphatically stating on a DAILY basis to my kids.....DO NOT GO NEAR THAT POND....or you will be facing dire consequences....

I wonder if they were ever warned that there was danger lurking there......

If they were warned not to go there, that probably would have made them go there first when they finally got out! lol!

I heard someone say on television last night that the first time they had gotten out that day, they were going in the direction of that pond. I also heard a reporter state that it took him 7-8 minutes to walk there at a leisurely pace.

Unfortunately, I don't think those kids were ever warned of danger anywhere. They were probably only taught about certain things when their behaviors were an irritation to the mom.

My, how this story has changed since yesterday. The Mom either has some serious issues, deserves some serious jail time, or both.

 

[CinnamonGirl]

I have to agree that I think the parents are mentally challenged,I saw them on the news and they both didn't seem to sharp.Also if you know your children are getting out,then safety up the place.They could have gotten the things that go over the knobs of the doors inside the house,so the kids couldn't get outside.They should have put a regular lock on the outside gate.Once my daughter got mobile,I put latches on every cabinet and the knob things and was always watching her,especially at that age when they put everything in their mouths too.I think the children were neglected and I feel sorry for them and I do feel sorry for the parents also.But this could have been avoided.I feel sorry for the neighbors too,because I think they probably saw all this neglect going on and were helpless to it and tried to watch out for these kids.

 

[LazyCat08]

The whole time frame just doesn't seem to fit. It seems to me that the mother either left them alone for alot longer than she's admitting OR she wasn't very concerned about them getting outside until a while later.

Playing kids usually make noise laughing and screaming, running around. I just don't see how these kids got outside the house, and the yard and were out of eye and ear shot in less than 15 minutes. If that were the case wouldn't the mother have gone to look for them in the immediate area?

Somewhere it said that the mother thought that a vindictive neighbor was hiding them on purpose.....I think she just didn't really think that anything was wrong until it was too late to do anything about it. If the kids had left before and were returned, she wasn't that worried. It certainly doesn't make it right, but people in rural areas do live differently than people in suburban or cities.....

Whether it was really negligent....I'm not sure, perhaps naive or ignorant.... The legal definition of negligence is basically failing to act in the way a reasonable person would....

negligent

adj 1: characterized by neglect and undue lack of concern; "negligent parents";

Synonyms: negligent, derelict, lax, neglectful, remiss, slack

[size=-1]1[/size] These adjectives mean guilty of a lack of due care or concern: an accident caused by a negligent driver; was derelict in his civic responsibilities; lax in attending classes; neglectful of her own financial security; remiss of you not to pay your bill; slack in maintaining discipline.
​

I guess she was negligent, it's very sad but when it comes down to it - only the mother knows what really happened and she now has to live with that. That in itself may be punishment enough....

It does seem that they knew this was a problem more than they are admitting, especially if they bought a special lock because of it...I fear that they just didn't think there was alot of immediate danger for these children...

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

BUT, I suppose with two tots, they could themselves create more mess faster than a mildly retarded person could cope with. So personal cleanliness would be something they could keep on top of.

My one toddler can often create more mess than I can keep up with! But what I've heard didn't sound like a simple mess - like there were toys & books & crayons & clothes, etc., lying around. It sounded like it was messy AND filthy.

Has anyone heard if there is any fact to the idea of this couple being mentally incapacitated? If that is the case, I have sympathy. But the way I feel this morning, I refuse to deal the Mom any more sympathy without some sort of evidence that she isn't capable of being a better Mom.

 

[Kimmer]

Well all I can say is that my Hinky Meter is going full speed when it comes to this case, now dont misunderstand I feel absolutly devastated for the parents, but with that said, something is just not adding up here.

The first night I watched Nancy Grace the mother was in the bathroom for 15 min per the above trans from the dad, then last night LE was saying that the mother said it was only 5 min, and Nancy really took notice to that also.

I am in no way saying that the parents are involved in this but I do think this was more than an accident, and if you look at the statement that Nancy had on her show last night that was released when the autopsy findings were released (I will try to find a link to this) there is still an ongoing investigation. and I feel that there should be. Something just doesnt feel right about this case.

 

[lady-eowyn]

Whether it was really negligent....I'm not sure, perhaps naive or ignorant....

I think that is more likely the case. When I think of being purposely negligent I think of those parents who don't feed their kids, don't really care about them emotionally or keep them clean etc. I really believe this woman was just somewhat naive about what it took to keep the children safe. Even those of us who aren't naive tend to think "it won't happen to my children" I don't think, in my heart of hearts, that this woman didn't care. It is possible that she was totally naive about the dangers surrounding her property.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I'm not sure about footprints unless the road was damp or muddy.....but your mention of crawling thru a hole or something makes me wonder if LE found any evidence at the point of entry (of the fence) like snagged clothing or hair. I don't know if LE has located where they got thru the fence though...I think someone mentioned "several areas" where the children could have gained access.

I don't know if this has been mentioned later in the thread; haven't finished reading the new posts yet. I should probably do that before posting anymore. I promise I'll do that ... right after this one!

The one hole in the fence was very large. A camera man had gotten through it, camera & all.

 

[Miss Daisey]

Yes, I saw a hugh hole in the fence on FNC and the reporter said there were several holes that anyone could have gotten through.
I don't like the circumstances of this case, either. I've known negligent parents but this seems more than that.
Imo, it's very possible an adult threw them into the pond and they drown.

 

[Jovin]

I have a concern that he said his wife just lost "her first two kids". It seems very clear they're planning on having more.

-

I picked up on that statement too. I'm wondering if that means she's pregnant!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Well, I don't agree with you. Those kids are just as dead by not being properly supervised and this is not an isolated one time incident. Do I feel sorry for the mother - absolutely. We say don't criticize, don't blame....maybe if DFACS had done a little more criticizing and blaming those babies would still be here.

And what they are saying is that DFACS had been there weekly since 2003 for issues of lack of supervision. That would be when Jonah was around 1, and Nicole was recently born. Apparently these kids weren't even supervised appropriately when they were truly just babies.